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Effective Transitions

post #1 of 114
Thread Starter 
Is the Transition as important as the turn?
1.Are both skis flat in Transition as effective as a convergent Transition? Any help.
post #2 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Is the Transition as important as the turn?
I'd say yes. If you are carving down a green/blue run and you blow a transition you can likely recover. However, if you are ripping down a double black diamond chute and you blow a transition you are toast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
1.Are both skis flat in Transition as effective as a convergent Transition?
Can you elaborate on this question? I don't understand it.
post #3 of 114
Thread Starter 
Sorry for the pitiful drawing Max. I guess what I am trying to ask is a Convergent turn where the downhill ski is finishing a turn while the uphill ski is starting the next edge set to becoming the downhill ski for the up coming turn.

post #4 of 114
Slider,

Quote:
Is the Transition as important as the turn?
Yes, the turn is started in the transition. If the edges are changed by a strong movement in the direction of the new turn, the skis will be engaged and on edge well before the fall line. This makes the rest of the turn more matience than a scramble to stay in balance with a skidding ski that has no engagement in the snow.It is about being able to stay in dynamic balance through the transition toward the next transition.

1.Are both skis flat in Transition as effective as a convergent Transition? Any help.

Both are equally effective, but used in different situations.

RW
post #5 of 114
Thread Starter 
Both are equally effective, but used in different situations.

Could you explain the different situations Ron. The convergent transition seemed to work well in hard conditions. Thanks.
post #6 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Sorry for the pitiful drawing Max. I guess what I am trying to ask is a Convergent turn where the downhill ski is finishing a turn while the uphill ski is starting the next edge set to becoming the downhill ski for the up coming turn.
I'll take a guess here. As far as efficiency goes, I think you'd want to release the downhill ski first otherwise your CM is blocked and not moving down the hill even though you are changing the edge of the uphill ski.
post #7 of 114
Slider,

Quote:
Is the Transition as important as the turn?
Yes, the turn is started in the transition. If the edges are changed by a strong movement in the direction of the new turn, the skis will be engaged and on edge well before the fall line. This makes the rest of the turn more matience than a scramble to stay in balance with a skidding ski that has no engagement in the snow.It is about being able to stay in dynamic balance through the transition toward the next transition.

Quote:
1.Are both skis flat in Transition as effective as a convergent Transition? Any help.
Both are equally effective, but used in different situations.

RW
post #8 of 114
Thread Starter 
Blocking your CM. Would that cause some slowing into the next turn without skidding?
post #9 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'll take a guess here. As far as efficiency goes, I think you'd want to release the downhill ski first otherwise your CM is blocked and not moving down the hill even though you are changing the edge of the uphill ski.
I agree here, and with max_501's comment above.

In one sense, the transition IS the turn. Or, at least, the transition is not different than the turn. It is as much a part of the turn as the arc is. And what you do here creates or eliminates possibilities of efficiency and effectiveness.
post #10 of 114
The "convergent" term you describe slider seems to be an up-stem. I would say it is not a great habit. Max_501 would probably agree since in PMTS this is a huge no-no.

Personally, I think such a "convergent" move (assuming that I understood what you meant by "convergent") promotes holding on to the downhill edge, which is not a good habit.
post #11 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Blocking your CM. Would that cause some slowing into the next turn without skidding?
You decrease your ability to harness the energy from the previous turn for the new turn...meaning a lower angle for the high C engagement, less ski bend, less edge hold on hard snow, etc...
post #12 of 114
A convergent transition is a sequential movement pattern, usually involving some formation of a wedged position of the skis. Pretty hard to do this as smoothly as when using a simultaneous pattern. The sequential involves an interruption of flow because the old outside ski is holding back the center of mass while the new one is preparing to take over. There ARE times when it makes sense to slow or stop the movement of the center of mass down the hill and, if your method of doing that involves a sequential activity, then that's what you use. A stronger skier might use a check and then a simultaneous entry into the next turn, but either way the COM's flow will be interrupted. By "hard" conditions do you mean difficult?
post #13 of 114
Thread Starter 
Ok. Thanks for your input skiers.;-) The convergent transition is NOT something you want in your bag of tricks. It was fast(Icey for PNW conditions) today so perhaps I was skiing defensively on occasssion. One of these days I'll get it right,maybe.
post #14 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Blocking your CM. Would that cause some slowing into the next turn without skidding?
To put it simply, its hard to start your next turn when you are still skiing your old one.
post #15 of 114
slider,

Quote:
Could you explain the different situations Ron. The convergent transition seemed to work well in hard conditions. Thanks.
To clarify a convergent transition, it is not a down stem or abstem, but the new outside ski is placed on the snow pointing down the hill in relation to the outside ski of the last turn /_ . If the cm is crossing over the old ski, there is no blocking in this transition.

This is an effective tactic to use in steep choppy bumps, sence the top of the turn is cut off in a way. It cuts the time it takes to redirect and engage the new ski in a tight situation where a pure pivot would take too long to engage the ski effectivally. This is much different than the old stem christie sence the cm is moving in the new direction as the outside ski is engaged. This is a move similar to the stem step drill or the white pass turn.

RW
post #16 of 114
Thread Starter 
WOW. Thanks Ron. When I preformed this move today on marbles as Max put it. It help me get that new ski edged and bent, real early in the turn. However, there were times that I held onto that outside ski to cheat some speed off. I am trying to ski more natural and think less. : In short the Convergent Transition effectively insured an early strong new ski turn. Thanks everyone for your time and valuable information.
post #17 of 114
I like the title of this thread!

What exactly should occur during the most "effective transitions"? What image comes to mind when you visualize a photomontage during an edge change.

I agree about releasing the downhill edge but believe that an often overlooked element of being able to release this edge is that the hips have to begin a movement over the feet while the feet are still in the old turn so that the edge can actually be released. The hips go a split second before the feet. Otherwise, if the hips are too inside of the turn it is impossible to release the downhill edge. The feet finish one turn while the hips simultaneously begin the new one. This puts us in the position to be able to release and unwind (counter to counter) into the new turn. I believe it is a bit of a myth to think the turn is initiated with an edge release, the difference between finishing a turn up the hill to a stop and beginning a new turn, is where the hips begin to move closer to the feet to permit an edge release.

This, I think, is accomplished by an increase in knee angulation to begin the hips moving toward the new turn?

Am I in left field or does this make some sense?
post #18 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
The hips go a split second before the feet.

...This, I think, is accomplished by an increase in knee angulation to begin the hips moving toward the new turn?

Am I in left field or does this make some sense?
If you move your knees won't you move your foot and release the turn before the hips get over the skis?

I release my turns as follows:

1) Relax the outside leg
2) As the pressure releases I roll the outside foot the the little toe edge.
3) The rest of my body follows that movement pattern.
post #19 of 114
That makes sense. Maybe I was confusing releasing the edge with flattening the ski which can not occur without the hips moving over the feet. Your relaxing of the outside leg achieves this result.
So really, it is releasing the pressure on the downhill leg that releases the edge. The sequence is release the pressure which releases the edge.

thanks
b
post #20 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you move your knees won't you move your foot and release the turn before the hips get over the skis?

I release my turns as follows:

1) Relax the outside leg
2) As the pressure releases I roll the outside foot the the little toe edge.
3) The rest of my body follows that movement pattern.
IMHO, your on it! But keep that ski on the snow. Some relax and pick it up.---
Wigs
post #21 of 114
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Max_501
If you move your knees won't you move your foot and release the turn before the hips get over the skis?

I release my turns as follows:

1) Relax the outside leg
2) As the pressure releases I roll the outside foot the the little toe edge.
3) The rest of my body follows that movement pattern.


And a most efficent transistion it is Max_. With no or very little UP movement generated. By cuttting off the top part of the turn(thanks for the explanation Ron W.) it just feels quicker to me to make a Convergent Transition. By moving the CM(hips) ahead it by passes the blocking effect. Yes-No? Your thoughts.
post #22 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
IMHO, your on it! But keep that ski on the snow. Some relax and pick it up.---
Wigs
See! if you pick it up but do not commit the hips you will interrupt the flow and tend to extend in a less efficient plane.

b
post #23 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I like the title of this thread!

What exactly should occur during the most "effective transitions"? What image comes to mind when you visualize a photomontage during an edge change.

I agree about releasing the downhill edge but believe that an often overlooked element of being able to release this edge is that the hips have to begin a movement over the feet while the feet are still in the old turn so that the edge can actually be released. The hips go a split second before the feet. Otherwise, if the hips are too inside of the turn it is impossible to release the downhill edge. The feet finish one turn while the hips simultaneously begin the new one. This puts us in the position to be able to release and unwind (counter to counter) into the new turn. I believe it is a bit of a myth to think the turn is initiated with an edge release, the difference between finishing a turn up the hill to a stop and beginning a new turn, is where the hips begin to move closer to the feet to permit an edge release.

This, I think, is accomplished by an increase in knee angulation to begin the hips moving toward the new turn?

Am I in left field or does this make some sense?
I know that you backed away from this somewhat but I have had all day to think about what you have said.

If I am interpreting you correctly you are taking more about skiing into anticipation rather than the actual release. My first thought was that I don't think we build any where near as much anticipation for the release as we once did BUT I ski on bunny hills and you ski on mountains. In steep terrain I would build more and that anticipation is somewhat key to a good effective release in very steep terrain. I do not think you are off thread by bringing in anticipation as part and key to a good release.

That said and the comments by Max 501, I would like to add my own. While I realize that relaxing the outside ski, tipping to the little toe edge and the rest of the body follows is correct, that is not how it feels in my skiing.

I have a very pronounce short leg/long leg movement pattern in my skiing and that even tends to carry over too much to off piste skiing. Here in bunny hill land, the short reaching carved turn is king. To me it does not feel like relaxation of the outside leg but instead two active legs 100% of the time. Both legs are doing deliberate movement patterns competely separate from one another.

To put it another way, it feels like the outside leg is shortening towards transition and the inside leg is shortening/maintaining/decreasing or increasing pressure depending on dynamics. Both legs are in a sense relaxing yet both legs are still very active and have tension.

In terms of where the transition occurs depends on what my intents, DIRT are. The new outside leg may be totally dominate before edge change or become dominate at edge change.

If my new outside ski is dominate before edge change I can appear to move inside the turn too quickly but I achieve higher edge angles and tighter turns for a given speed with this approach.

To answer the original question, I beleive the turn transition completely defines the quality of the turn. There is no doubt in my mind that working on turn transition is the key to unlocking the secrets to upper level skiing.
post #24 of 114
Thsi has turned into a very interesting thread. An efficient transition can use a variety of movements. Relaxing the old outside ski, moving the knee (and hips) to the little toe side of the inside ski, doing a directional movement change (where new outside leg extension is also used). I feel that if all three of above are integrated together, it becomes more effective and any one. What is less efficient is extending onto the new outside ski (and even lifting the old outside ski) b/c the cm moves away from the new turn to balance over the new outside ski, or an up and then over move (why do some instructors still teach this?)

Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that working on turn transition is the key to unlocking the secrets to upper level skiing.
Absolutly!!

RW
post #25 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
What is less efficient is...(and even lifting the old outside ski) b/c the cm moves away from the new turn to balance over the new outside ski...
If you counter balance while lifting and tipping the old outside ski the CM does not move away from the new turn. In fact, it falls aggressively downhill. This is how high energy SL turns are often released and started by racers.
post #26 of 114
I agree with weems' fundamental statement that the edge change is the most important part of the turn and the only thing that every turn must contain. As a result, it's vitally important! Furthermore, I think his conclusion follows (as outlined in the mother of all ski tips that he mentions in Brilliant Skiing): make it your goal to make the most perfect edge change possible.

Learning how to do that should keep all of us busy for the rest of our lives!
post #27 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
Thsi has turned into a very interesting thread. An efficient transition can use a variety of movements. Relaxing the old outside ski, moving the knee (and hips) to the little toe side of the inside ski, doing a directional movement change (where new outside leg extension is also used). I feel that if all three of above are integrated together, it becomes more effective and any one. What is less efficient is extending onto the new outside ski (and even lifting the old outside ski) b/c the cm moves away from the new turn to balance over the new outside ski, or an up and then over move (why do some instructors still teach this?)
I also think that there is a very wide variety of ways to transition from turn to turn, and the duration, intensity, rate, and timing of the movements can be varied to create a virtually infinite variety of possibilities.

I think about two extremes being inside leg extension (as promulgated here by Rick/Fastman) and the weighted release (keeping the pressure on that old outside ski well into the new turn... perhaps all the way to the apex). Movements to cause these two transitions are also widely varied, but some are more efficient and effective than others. My goal in all my transitions is to maintain ski/snow contact with both skis at all times from the apex of the previous turn through the apex of the current turn. This means no lifted redirection, no unweighting, no blocking, etc.

When I find my turns feeling interrupted, I go back to this goal. I check and see what I'm doing from the apex of one turn (which I view as the beginning of the transition) through the apex of the next (the end of transition). In fact, I guess I'm often thinking of "turns" as really "linked transitions!" Smooth, precise, and powerful.
post #28 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you counter balance while lifting and tipping the old outside ski the CM does not move away from the new turn. In fact, it falls aggressively downhill. This is how high energy SL turns are often released and started by racers.
For those without the glossary, "counter balance" is another way of describing what has long been called "angulation." That is the movements of the body necessary to balance along the inside edge of the outside ski given the dynamics of a turn.
post #29 of 114
In particuoar, you are talking about knee angulation. Imagine throwing the knees to one side and balanceing hips ontop of skis, while you traverse,
post #30 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
In particuoar, you are talking about knee angulation. Imagine throwing the knees to one side and balanceing hips ontop of skis, while you traverse,
What is this comment in reference to?
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