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PMTS Discussions - Page 5

post #121 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Its funny that PMTS skiers dont wedge because it such an essential part of skiing.
I'm not sure if I would call it an essential part of skiing! :
post #122 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm not sure if I would call it an essential part of skiing! :
Are you sure? A steeper, narrow road with people all heading to the base at the end of the day. No room to turn, too steep to control speed without turning uphill or braking. What do you do if you don't know how to wedge? If you need it at some point while on-hill, it's essential...
post #123 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Are you sure? A steeper, narrow road with people all heading to the base at the end of the day. No room to turn, too steep to control speed without turning uphill or braking. What do you do if you don't know how to wedge? If you need it at some point while on-hill, it's essential...
Well, we don't have those where I ski , but I see your point.
post #124 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Well, we don't have those where I ski , but I see your point.
I've seen pictures of that kind of thing in the Alps. I've not skied there yet, but can imagine it being a required movement!
post #125 of 136
A question, Max: do you know how to wedge? ...Ott
post #126 of 136
OK, I have a few dumb questions but after looking at all of the threads on PMTS and reading pieces of the first PMTS book, I'm still confused...

What are the key differences between "PMTS" ski technique and "PSIA" ski technique? Are there any video clips out there that I could look at and see these differences? Are the differences only apparent at lower skill levels?
post #127 of 136
Max, let me clarify. In my very long skiing life I have never met a skier who couldn't wedge and use it in an emergency. A truer statement would be: I know how to wedge but I don't use it unless absolutely necessary. I think.

....Ott
post #128 of 136
hammer, this is a question that hasn't been resolved here, even over the many years it's been debated.

Here's my view: PSIA trains ski instructors. It trains them in understanding, analyzing and developing skills in skiers (balance/stance, pressure management, edging, and rotary). It gives them some guidance on possible ways of coaching skiers in their development. And then it leaves the instructors to teach based on their understanding and the focus of their particular ski school. Hence, there is no "PSIA ski technique," even if many instructors seem to ski similarly.

PMTS is a teaching system (Primary Movements Teaching System) that provides a specific set of movements learned in a specific order to accomplish a particular outcome. Even here, I'm not sure I would call it a "ski technique", but rather a structured system for teaching parallel, edge-biased skiing skills.

As skiers become more and more skilled, the differences between those taught using different systems narrows, since their time on the snow helps them learn beyond what lessons and/or coaching can. We learn what works and what doesn't.

There are video clips available here on EpicSki that show a number of PSIA instructors skiing (including mine, which is somewhere in the middle of the pack for PSIA instructors). There are videos of PMTS on the various PMTS web sites, as well. If you look at the video mentioned at the top of the Exquisite Short Turns thread, you'll see some tremendously skilled turns by a CSIA Demo Team member. Highly recommended!

I hope this helps...
post #129 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
....As skiers become more and more skilled, the differences between those taught using different systems narrows, since their time on the snow helps them learn beyond what lessons and/or coaching can. We learn what works and what doesn't...
Well put Steve. You have summed up my personal evolutionary vs. revolutionary skiing experience.
post #130 of 136
Thanks for the explanation, ssh.

Checked out the video...very nice. Can't speak for the technique specifics but the movements were very fluid, which looks great no matter what.
post #131 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post
NO!

You can STILL use PMTS when approaching a lift line, when exiting the chair, all at SLOW speeds.

When I approach the lift line I simply keep the downhill ski on its edge. The free ski is tilted. Same as when I'm moving fast.

When I exit the ski lift chair and I want to go left, even at very slow speed I just use PMTS, standing on right ski edge and tilting the other to turn.

No wedging needed at all ever.
Cool. I need to ski at the same resorts you do!

I wish all our lift line areas would be so perfect. Currently the approach to our magic carpet (due to snow conditions) requires teaching a child to side step up about 5 yards up a 15% rise, then turn and duck walk the last 2 yards with no poles. Then step onto the carpet which is also up hill. Try this with a group of 10 screaming 5 year olds. It's bad enough with one or 2 adult never ever students.

If it works great. If not, give me an alternative. Terminal couch potatoes that want to try skiing. Give me a WEDGE anytime. They will be more successful!
post #132 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post
NO!

You can STILL use PMTS when approaching a lift line, when exiting the chair, all at SLOW speeds.

When I approach the lift line I simply keep the downhill ski on its edge. The free ski is tilted. Same as when I'm moving fast.

When I exit the ski lift chair and I want to go left, even at very slow speed I just use PMTS, standing on right ski edge and tilting the other to turn.

No wedging needed at all ever.
Jim, where do YOU ski??? Inquiring minds want to know....
post #133 of 136

the wedge

one more straw dog.
post #134 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammer View Post
What are the key differences between "PMTS" ski technique and "PSIA" ski technique? Are there any video clips out there that I could look at and see these differences? Are the differences only apparent at lower skill levels?
The first difference is that there no longer is a "PSIA ski technique". The "Official American Ski Technique" was introduced in 1961. There was even a book published in 1970. But the concept of a single best way to ski fell out of favor because not all good skiers look/ski the same and a lot of things (e.g. technology) change too quickly. PSIA now has a thing called the Skiing Model. It is a model of the skills that can be used to make movements in order to ski. The model describes how people "can" ski as opposed to how they "should" ski. It's a very useful tool for making positive changes to someone's skiing.

As SSH has noted PMTS is also a teaching system, but we see a lot of references on the PMTS forum to "PMTS skiing" and there was even a recent post referring to "PMTS turns". It should be fair to say that turns made with the movements proscribed by the "primary movements" philosophy would qualify as "PMTS technique". The ACBAES series of books clearly promotes a "technique" for skiing based on the primary movements philosophy:
Quote:
Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 2 shows you how to use the sure-fire technique of the Primary Movements Teaching System to ski expert terrain with more ease and less effort than you thought possible
Harald is fond of pointing out that PSIA skiers tend to pivot their skis during turn initiation. But PSIA instructors have to be able to fully carve turns for level 3 certification. You can't argue with a complete set of pencil thin tracks. One could compare a PMTS Direct Parallel (tm) student to a student being taught to wedge, but PSIA advocates that teaching parallel turns to first time skiers is an option.

I'm very fond of saying that there are no right or wrong ways to ski. Skiing with your back resting on the tails of your skis is neither very efficient nor very safe. But it is fun when you use this method to ski between someone else's legs. Whether or not it's right for you is a choice that only you can make. High level skiers choose from different turning techniques for tactical reasons. Lower level skiers have fewer choices to make.

For all these reasons, trying to use video to compare techniques would be pointless. It makes sense to ask the question, but any answer would be attempting to compare apples to oranges. There have been many threads attempting to identify the fundamental differences between the teaching systems. But you won't be able to see this on video either.
post #135 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
One could compare a PMTS Direct Parallel (tm) student to a student being taught to wedge, but PSIA advocates that teaching parallel turns to first time skiers is an option.
In fact, as I mentioned in another thread via quotes from the PSIA Alpine Technical Manual (first edition), it's pretty clear that the preference is to teach parallel skiing to first time skiers whenever the conditions (skier, terrain, conditions, etc.) allow. But, when not, to teach people to ski in whatever way will maximize their enjoyment as quickly as is reasonable.
post #136 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
A question, Max: do you know how to wedge? ...Ott
Please see this earlier post which should answer your question.

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...&postcount=117
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