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Short Turns MA

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hi y'all. Sorry for the video quality, but thought I'd post this to get some feedback. I'm working to get more pressure higher in the turn so I can start to release and lighten the skis a little earlier ahead of the new turn.

Short Turns

Fire away,
Bryan
post #2 of 28

I like.

Ski work looks good. Body position? You ski kinda like me, and I stand too squatty in short turns like this. Maybe a little less hip and knee flexion? Just an observation. You definitely don't look lazy though- good continous work through the turn. As for the early release? I need better eyes. Nice.
post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
Hi y'all. Sorry for the video quality, but thought I'd post this to get some feedback. I'm working to get more pressure higher in the turn so I can start to release and lighten the skis a little earlier ahead of the new turn.

Short Turns

Fire away,
Bryan
Canuck I have read this three times and I am still not sure exactly what you are looking for. What do you mean by "more pressure higher in the turn"? and "release and lighten ahead of the new turn"? Are you going for any type of CSIA certification?

I see some mighty nice things in your turns that most skiers would be proud to own and some things that may be putting up some road blocks to where I think you want to go but, I am not sure. Your turns are certainly powerful and I am sure quite fun.
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Canuck I have read this three times and I am still not sure exactly what you are looking for. What do you mean by "more pressure higher in the turn"? and "release and lighten ahead of the new turn"? Are you going for any type of CSIA certification?

I see some mighty nice things in your turns that most skiers would be proud to own and some things that may be putting up some road blocks to where I think you want to go but, I am not sure. Your turns are certainly powerful and I am sure quite fun.
Let me try to rephrase. In earlier video of myself skiing, I see most of the snow come off the ski at the very bottom of the turn as this is where I was generating much of my direction change. I have slowly been able to move the primary direction change further up in the turn, which then allows me to manage pressure in the bottom of the turn by both bending and releasing the edge.

I don't have any courses planned for this season, but continue to nit-pick my skiing on a regular basis. The good ol' ski instructor brain at work.

What do you see that may cause road blocks? And blocking what?

Thanks in advance to any input.

Cheers,
Bryan
post #5 of 28
I like your turns. Do you think there is some hinging at your waist?


post #6 of 28
Nice turns Canuck. If you want to tweak them to get more work done earlier try relaxing your outside leg at the bottom of the turn and letting your body move across the skis before you extend your lower joints. you can also assist this with active tipping into the new turn at this point too. Right now you are mainly extending at transition and then when you are tallest you move inside to get your skis edged. You se this clearly in the turns as you go by the camera. Stay flexed as you move to your new edges then extend into the new turn on your new edges. You won't move up so much and you should get earlier work from your skis as you get longer. Something I have been playing with myself. Always tweaking aren't we.
post #7 of 28
Canuck I don't want to come off as seeming harsh as you are a very strong skier and a good skier and I see great potential in your skiing.

I do not think the mechanics that you are using at this point to turn your skis are significantly different than you were probably using when all the turning force was at the bottom of your turns. I think what you have done is shift your timing and intensity.

What I am seeing is more of a “Fast Line Slow” type of mechanics taken to a very good blended level. Your mechanics appear to be an up movement, some slight upper body rotation to move inside the turn and a weight shift to start redirecting the skis. With timing and intensity you have managed to get some good angles going for you. Your blending is very good so the overall appearance if very good. I have had to freeze the video often to see the underlying mechanics.

The key here for you is that your ability to blend has somewhat masked the mechanics you are presently using, but that ability to blend is also the fast track for you to big improvements. The fact that you can blend so well also means great diversity in your skiing.

You will make quantum leaps fast by switching to "go" movements from "whoa" movements. Switching from up, rotate, shift weight and redirect to everything goes in the direction of the new turn is a real thrill and a real eye opener. Slow Line Fast type of skiing with diagonal movements into the turn.

The best thing that you can do is find yourself a good mentor who skis the Slow Line Fast and get ready for a huge exciting quantum leap in your skiing. Again I hate to be so direct but you have taken these mechanics about as far as they will go, your diversity shows through and I see you as a candidate for a huge quantum leap. I definitely would enjoy skiing with you.
post #8 of 28
Something else to play with:

At the bottom of the turn, instead of managing the pressure just let it go. Don't bother to rise up to start the new turn, just allow your body to carry on through as the ski's continue their turn, thus setting up for an early engagement of the new edges. Once you are past the skis extend the new outside leg, but push yourself forwards down the hill instead of up, and really get the skis working in the top half. It's lots of fun.
post #9 of 28
Without reading any others posts here is my short MA.

Good skiing. Very good infact. I like your sence of rhythm and the way your leggs are working while your upper body stays facing downhill. Your shoulders are also nicely leveled and your shafts are aligned. What bothers me a bit is that you are leaning very strongly forward with your upper body and therefore your butt sticks out at the back. This looks a bit like jr racers today. They do that as well. Also your head keeps jumping up and down more than I would like to so my advise to you would be to try to extend a bit more and let your leggs drift further out when you cross the fall line. At the same time try to keep your upper body a bit more upright and as you come in for your transition try to absorbe that upward motion by flexing your leggs to keep your head from jumping up and down. Also you dont really have a very good upper lower body separation and your hipps are not working that efficently. Your forward leaning posture prevents you form doing that.

"I'm working to get more pressure higher in the turn so I can start to release and lighten the skis a little earlier ahead of the new turn."

IMHO you are focusing on the wrong thing here. Your turns look snappy and efficiant but your strong forward leaning prevents you from healthy angulation and proper upper lower body separation.
post #10 of 28

Looks pretty teriffic to me...

...you've heard all the ifs, ands, and buts. One thing you might do is get ahold of the USSCA Fundamentals 1 and Fundamentals 2 DVDs. I'm L3 PSIA and I just completed the on snow portion of my USSCA L100 certification. The paper test (actually online) is based on these DVDs, and I'm amazed at how comprehensive the knowledge base is, how progressive the drills and skills, and how well organized and produced these DVDs are. I'd strongly recommend them to anyone looking for a solid program for skills improvement...
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Folks -

Thanks for the feedback. I like the thought of "Fast Line Slow" vs. "Slow Line Fast". I recall being intrigued by that concept when it first came up here. I've reposted a link to my video in the "Exquisite Short Turns" thread since it was suggested that a comparison my Cannonball's turns to mine might make for useful discussion of mechanics.

I'll be back on snow this evening to think and work some more before teaching again tomorrow.

Cheers,
Bryan
post #12 of 28
Canuck,

Nice turns. I'll get right to the meat of it. I understand why you are saying you want to get more pressure higher in the turns. There's a fair amount of cross"over" (up and over) at you transitions. Try to use a little more cross under, so that the legs are long and strong where the pressure from gravity is the greatest, and more flexed at the transition. But as mentioned by others, don't hinge at the waist. It has to come from the ankles and knees, and back should remain more upright. By being more flexed at the transition, when you get across the skis you can extend to pressure the skis at the top of the turn more, allowing for much more turn control above the fall line.
post #13 of 28
Canuck,

You may want to take a look at your fore/aft alignment created by your equipment. Perhaps there is too much ramp or forward lean in those boots and bindings? This could be causing your crouched stance and hinging at waist?

b
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Canuck,

You may want to take a look at your fore/aft alignment created by your equipment. Perhaps there is too much ramp or forward lean in those boots and bindings? This could be causing your crouched stance and hinging at waist?

b
Hi Bud -

That lower / crouched stance was an intentional tactic I tried to use to limit upper body movement both rotationally and vertically. I've basically tightened my stomach muscles to stabilize my core. It's not how I'd want to ski for a long time, but useful for me to ensure movements are happening with my skis.

Other than not looking great, I am struggling to see the negative impact associated with my more rounded back. I think I'm still fairly centered fore/aft, but maybe there's something I'm missing. What do you see with the skis that might indicate a fore/aft alignment issue?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,
Bryan
post #15 of 28
Canuck:

I agree with all the positive things that have been said about your turns. I'm sure these would pass a CSIA Level 3 exam, if you are not a level 3 already.

I'm glad for the opportunity to do some analysis on such high level turns; good for my eye as I inch toward my level 3 goal!

I noticed that you start to flex the joints very early in the turn and get the upper body a bit too far forward, which is compensated by the hips too far back. A bit too "scrunched up". This keeps you balanced but you
never really allow yourself to extend quite enough in my view. (I know these are short turns but I still think you will benefit with more extension). This reduces your range of movement and, in my view, your ability to get more ski performance earlier in the turn. Also too much forward bend at the waist can sort of "compress " the upper and lower body together a bit and make it more difficult to steer with the lower body. In CSIA speak how about trying to achieve a slightly more extended (but inclined) body position in phase 2 by opening up a bit more at the hip as you unbend the ankles and knees? As part of this you can allow your outside shoulder to briefly be slightly higher than the inside shoulder. You will look a bit like the leaning tower of Pisa. Of course you will move from this inclined position to a more angulated one and the shoulders will level out as you steer and bend through the turn. But you will be able to start the bending movements from a longer body. I know that in Ontario a common CSIA tip is to "stay taller longer". Do they say that out in Alberta? I guess I'm saying "get taller and then don"t get so small". Or "extend more and flex less".

BTW. I'm emphatically NOT suggesting that extending means getting up tall like the trees grow; it's extending into an INCLINED position with the whole body.

And to repeat: great skiing.

One last thing. I'm more than envious of the winter you guys are having out there. I teach at the largest ski resort in Ontario. We've opened and closed TWICE already. Never been more than 3 runs open. Some of the old timers can't remember this ever happening. Need any instructors at Lake Louise?!

Regards,

cdnguy
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
Hi Bud -

That lower / crouched stance was an intentional tactic

I am struggling to see the negative impact associated with my more rounded back. I think I'm still fairly centered fore/aft, but maybe there's something I'm missing.

Cheers,
Bryan
I really like it!

Keep in mind, he's Canadian and this rounded back thing, seems to be a "tactic". I am not qualified to say if it's good or bad.

I would suggest that you try a tall stance, can't hurt to give it a try. I find that it really helps.

The other thing that you might try is to make the beginning and the end of the turn count more. Maybe a little earlier start to the turn so the end is less of a crisis. Engage the tips earlier, maybe.

At the end of the turn you seem to leave the arc early, maybe. Finish.
post #17 of 28
More credit is due. This great skiing.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
Hi Bud -

That lower / crouched stance was an intentional tactic I tried to use to limit upper body movement both rotationally and vertically. I've basically tightened my stomach muscles to stabilize my core. It's not how I'd want to ski for a long time, but useful for me to ensure movements are happening with my skis.

Other than not looking great, I am struggling to see the negative impact associated with my more rounded back. I think I'm still fairly centered fore/aft, but maybe there's something I'm missing. What do you see with the skis that might indicate a fore/aft alignment issue?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,
Bryan
I see the skis working well on the snow. As others have mentioned above some refinement in pressure management at the transition and more active rotary at the completion and edge change will improve upon already good turns. Watch the videos of Cannonball and for that matter the other members of the CSIA team and pay particular attention to the differences in their movements at the transition and your own. Then read what I describe in the exquisite short turn thread about the transition and let me know what you think?

b
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Watch the videos of Cannonball and for that matter the other members of the CSIA team and pay particular attention to the differences in their movements at the transition and your own. Then read what I describe in the exquisite short turn thread about the transition and let me know what you think?

b
Bud,

In the other thread you talked about rebound vs hopping, and trasition. Now I may be wrong, but leaving the turn early squashes ones ability to creat rebound. Rebound is one of the great sensations of short turns!

Bottoming-out at the end of the turn encourages many skiers to leave the turn early. Make the early part of the turn count more and the end of the turn will be smoother and less abrubt.

Once again, I have no qualifications for MA.
post #20 of 28
Dugg a little in my video archives and found this one....

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=4EAA9EF9

Any comment!
post #21 of 28
PJ,

I am not advocating "leaving the turn early" to the contrary, finishing the turn more. Using the last part of the turn to keep turning the feet while the upper body begins the move across the feet to stretch the muscles (counter) then when the edges are release taking advantage of that unwinding and extension to shape the top of the turn. This move is a little unnerving as it takes a stronger committment of moving the COM into the turn while the skis are going the other way. Timing must be more precise and movements more accurate to pull it off, but then that is called "skill".

b
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
PJ,

I am not advocating "leaving the turn early" to the contrary, finishing the turn more. Using the last part of the turn to keep turning the feet while the upper body begins the move across the feet to stretch the muscles (counter) then when the edges are release taking advantage of that unwinding and extension to shape the top of the turn. This move is a little unnerving as it takes a stronger committment of moving the COM into the turn while the skis are going the other way. Timing must be more precise and movements more accurate to pull it off, but then that is called "skill".

b
BudH, I picked up on that pre turn thing you were talking about in an earlier post and now this here because you are on to something very important and its indeed the secret to skillfull skiing. I have lately been trying to figure out what downunweighting is and came to the conclusion that its the same as upunweighting except that it happens earlier and that the force you pick up from the end of the previous turn or from a "pre turn" (small jabb uphill) is what lifts you up. But insted of going up you quickly flex and absorb the excsess upward motion with your leggs and initiate your new turn.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
PJ,

I am not advocating "leaving the turn early" to the contrary,
b
Didn't mean for it to come off as a correction on your theory. I was just trying to build on you thought from the other thread. In fact it, I was almost going to phrase it as a question.

In doing MA, I noticed the early departure from the turn and was talking about that aspect to see if others might agree.

I love the pop of a rebounding ski.

Again C, great skiing.
post #24 of 28
PJ,

Did not take offense, but I am a bit confused as I don't remember saying anything along these lines???

b
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

I was just trying to build on you thought from the other thread. In fact it, I was almost going to phrase it as a question.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I wanted to hear your thoughts about what I had to say about rebound and finishing the turn.



[quote]Cannonball gets his edges fully engaged at the very end of the turn, where they are almost all the way across the fall line. And this is why he gets that really fun pop out the turn.[quote]

True, and this occurs because he works the early part of the turn as well.
post #26 of 28
Let's just say, I should not be a technical writer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Bud,

Bottoming-out at the end of the turn encourages many skiers to leave the turn early. Make the early part of the turn count more and the end of the turn will be smoother and less abrubt.
What I mean is that bottoming-out is distressing and no fun. So skiers leave the turn early to avoid this problerm. To get the rebound, you need to stay in the turn.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Let's just say, I should not be a technical writer.



What I mean is that bottoming-out is distressing and no fun. So skiers leave the turn early to avoid this problerm. To get the rebound, you need to stay in the turn.
Ahhh! now I understand

I think you can develop rebound anywhere in the turn from the fall line on around, but being able to control where you get the pop is important. I think skiers tend to get comfortable with a mono rythme and a movement pattern that works and just get stuck there. It is a laziness, a comfort zone, that needs to modify to change turn shapes. The D.I.R.T. acromym comes to mind. Duration, Intensity, Rythme, Timing?...

If the skier uses all his/her flexion before the skis have come across the hill it is very difficult to keep turning the feet. This is also how many skiers use the rebound or pop to get their COMs across the skis and ricochete back again. If they haven't come across the hill enough to control speed they find themselves accellerating as they link turns. I know I was quilty of this myself when I moved from the East Coast and a little, relatively flat, ski hill to Mammoth a big steep hill. I found myself continually picking up speed in my turns because I had an ingrained "little hill" rythme that tryed to get as much energy out of a turn as I could. Once skiing at a big hill like Mammoth I found I needed to change my DIRT and save something for finishing a turn farther across the fall line and absorb energy rather than try to create rebound.

b
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I found I needed to change my DIRT and save something for finishing a turn farther across the fall line and absorb energy rather than try to create rebound.

b
Welcome to the old farts club.
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