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Booster Strap Flex? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
The reason that boot companies are not using them exclusively fromw hat I understand has to do with the patent on the strap. No one else can use it without permission and those rights have not been granted to any companies exclusively. I had heard that Nordica's elastic strap had the elastic section in the back because they could not violate the Booster patent.
Nordica licenses the use of the strap and each strap is labeled Energy Driver by Booster.
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetski View Post
Of interest to some, I put the Booster Strap over the boot tongue of the Krypton Pro just the same as the velcro strap was used. One would think that there wouldn't be a difference in performance but there is. I'm wondering if one had a big Booster Strap (wide) would you need the top buckle? My liner is Dabello's I.D. Thermo made by Intuition.
There was a long thread about the Booster and how to use it properly on TGR last season. The final decision was that the Booster works best inside against the liner tongue on 2 piece traditional overlap shells. However, with 3 piece floating tongue boots (Flexons/Kryptons) the Booster works best on the outside over the floating tongue as a replacement for the stock non-elastic velcro power straps.

I also recommend hitting the search engine on Booster straps for the guys that still aren't understanding why Booster straps are so superior to the stock power straps. We've discussed these straps quite a few times.
post #33 of 52
Sounds similar to me as well. I am skiing an almost 10 yo pair of sollie x-scream 7.0 that fit great but i wasn't sure if it was stiff enough for my style of skiing and the stifness of my skis. I had the tearing stock velcro strap replaced by a 3 layer booster and it was a huge improvement. I also feel like there are shock absorbers in the ankle of my boots. they now have a very deep progressive flex. the straps are like changing the spring rate on a car. you can find a better perfromance/ comfort.

Any one else install them in place of the stock strap, or are you using them on top like bode??

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
The smooth progressive flex and absense of shin bang are exactly the reasons I prefer my Kryptons over traditional stiffer flexing boots, which is why I am particularly interested in Vetski's comments.

The Krypton tongue gives a feel of the ski and snow that is so much beyond the Solomans and Technicas I used during my continuing 16 yr. Flexon/Krypton period. If you were to jump into Kryptons from Dobbies your first impression would probably be how weird they feel because of the sensory overload experience. It takes a while to get used to the complete difference in feel from a traditional boot. I have skied many top end race boots over the years and was astonished when I discovered Flexons, which totally eliminated the on/off feel of flexing the boot. That may be good for racers, but I'll take the ability to feather the flex pressure for everday skiing in any condition. When I'm hitting it hard it actually feels like I've got shock absorbers on my ankles.

It sounds like smooth progressive flex is what we are all trying to achieve one way or another.
post #34 of 52

W A N T E D:

Feedback from those who have used Boosters for junior boots, particularly rear-entry design.
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke walker View Post
couldnt this be done with a bit of elastic at the boot manufacturing stage for a lot less than $40?
I think Salomon tried something like it on their rear entry boots in the really early '80s.
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Feedback from those who have used Boosters for junior boots, particularly rear-entry design.
comprex, someone using boosters on Jr boots/rear-entry won't float a reply. Sorry. People at that level don't care... or bother. The velcro is fine. and they've probably never heard the word booster-strap.

Personally, I wouldn't race to put them on rear-entries. (Are people still skiing those?)
post #37 of 52
Quite a few people would love to see comeback of rear entry ski boots.
Light, non-aggressive style of skiing with thick calves and high instep.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
comprex, someone using boosters on Jr boots/rear-entry won't float a reply. Sorry. People at that level don't care... or bother.
Yeah, but if there was going to be an exception, they'd post on Epic, right?

Quote:
The velcro is fine. and they've probably never heard the word booster-strap.
Except there quite often isn't any.

http://www.untracked.com/p1884c33b13...ski_boots.html
http://www.untracked.com/p203c33b63-..._ski_boot.html

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't race to put them on rear-entries. (Are people still skiing those?)
I particularly direct you to Noodler's post here:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=37945
post #39 of 52

Booster strap

Hi everybody,

Just noted this thread. I am 160 pds, 5'-8", 61 year young and an avid Masters racer and I installed the 3 strap booster on my Doberman PRO 110 this season and I love them. Putting pressure on front of boot is much more progressive & smooth and you return to neutral position "naturally".

I cut down about 5/8" to the top of the boot to get full grip on tongue & liner and get full advantage of the Booster.

I understand that Nordica will include a Booster strap on all their Doberman models next year. Looking forward to try a new Doberman 130 Agressor at next month NSIA local tests.
post #40 of 52
Pierre Begin
You've got me thinking, which is dangerous!!! We both have similar specs but I"m a little older and a little heavier. I run the Krypton Pros with the 3 strap Booster over the tongue. Must agree that they pull you back to neutral naturally. Really like this setup but always looking for more especially for fast lines. Have run the strap under the tongue and liked the response but thought it decreased the flex some which one doesn't want at faster speeds but puts you into neutral faster.

I've got two tongues with these boots so they are able to be changed easily which gives me an idea!! If I cut the tongue down I would have the strap on my Intuition liner. This may ruin everything but all I'm out is a set of tongues which can be replaced. Think I may give this a try after we get some snow!!!!! Had 70 days skiing last year I'll have to have perfect attendance this year if we get some snow soon!!!!!!
post #41 of 52
Since there is no snow to ski here, I'll put my two cents down.

I have two pairs of boots, Koflach Comp911 with VIP foam (triple stacked) and Solomon Crossmax 10s. Both pairs have power straps. Both have no play what-so-ever when done up. When I move my shin forward, the front of the boot moves and the back of the boot moves. The whole boot moves together with the flex that was built into the boot. The flex of the crossmax is soft and progressive. The Comp911s are rock hard, and a little abrupt at initiation, but that's the way I wanted them.

I don't see why the flex pattern you are looking for cannot be found in a boot without you having to buy after-market straps.
post #42 of 52
If we put aside questions of comfirt and fit and focus strictly on performance, I think it is curious that as the pereformance level increases, the booster model adds straps ans shims and so becomes stiffer and stiffer as the performance demand increases. So consider that as the performance demand increases, the booster becomes more and more like the regular nylon strap. If you extrapolate this curve to infinity (highest possible performance) then the booster would be rigid like a normal strap.

Just a thought.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I don't see why the flex pattern you are looking for cannot be found in a boot without you having to buy after-market straps.
a) no liner is infinitely hard. By the time you've compressed the liner enough to put pressure onto the front of your boot, the person with the (pre-loaded! just like an MTB suspension fork) Booster strap has already pulled the back of the cuff forward.

Side note: If the boot is flexed forward purely through weight shift, then the liner resilience has been bypassed. If the boot is flexed forward through dorsiflexion (say to avoid weighting the tip of the inside ski too much whilst pulling it back to under the hips) then only the liner resilience inside the lower part of the boot (clog) is in the force transmission path. I (ahem) firmly believe that there will be, in the near future, more elastic features for the lower part of the boot liner.

b) In order for your heel to stay down in the boot, your calf geometry will change inside the boot as the boot flexes forward. Therefore the hard limit of the tightness of your top buckle (and non-stretchable strap!) must be set loose enough to allow that. Within that hard limit, the Booster strap (pre-loaded! just like an MTB suspension fork) is more elastic than the liner, helping it bounce back towards your shin.

c) Yes the strap is matched to the flex of the boot. It has to be or it will bottom out by the time you've squished the liner, without putting adequate tension on the back of the cuff. The whole idea is that there is no discontinuity for very, very small forward motions between pure liner compression and forward shell flex. By the time it looks like a 'normal strap' there is no forward flex in the boot.

Side note: 'accuracy' 'precision' 'no play' are bandied about chronically without attention to the capacities of the human. Consider that being able to just slightly move whilst applying a force actually may make the perception of that force more accurate. For example: try figuring out how heavy a suitcase is just by holding it with arm outstretched, without flexing the bicep, and without bending spine or knees to pick it up. Not so easy, huh?

I believe that being able to move whilst applying a force allows our judgement of that force to be more accurate. Therefore I object to the use of the word play to describe Booster strap action because it is clearly also applying a force to the back of a boot cuff whilst it is being stretched, and the word play has connotation of free play, i.e. no effect during motion or wasted motion. Call it "suspension travel" and I shan't object.
post #44 of 52
Comprex's point B about how the Booster automatically adjusts to changes in the fit/geometry can't be emphasized enough. This is the main critical difference between stock power straps and Booster straps and why the whole idea of an elasticized power strap is patented.

Booster straps really need to be tried to be appreciated for what they do.

Note also that people with 2-piece traditional overlap boots can somewhat experience some of the benefits by just placing their stock power strap INSIDE their shell next to their liner tongue. It doesn't give you everything that the Booster does (since there's still no elastic), but most people report that it's a change for the better.
post #45 of 52
I think I am starting to understand what the booster straps are doing for the performance of the boot, but it still appears to me that a Krypton with a stock strap from the back of the boot around a floating tongue (complemented by the lower pivot point on the shell) is achieving pretty close to the same result. You get the automatic adjustment to changes in fit and preloaded adjustable flex. I'm sure that there is more slop in the system from liner compression, but the Kryp stock (non-Intuition) liners have a fairly hard liner tongue, which is not uncomfortable because of the flex qualities of the shell. Once you eliminate the shin bang you can get away with a very hard liner tongue..

I am certainly not on a crusade to push Krptons over other boots, but it still seems to me that you guys are starting with a stiff racing boot and trying to give it the qualities that were designed into the Kryps.

Smooth instantly responsive flex is what we all want. We are just approaching it from different directions.
post #46 of 52
XJguy:
In essence what you are saying is why would I want to change the manufacturers design? I think if you spend anytime on other threads here you will find ample reasons to change the manufacturers design.

Lou
post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by race510 View Post
XJguy:
In essence what you are saying is why would I want to change the manufacturers design? I think if you spend anytime on other threads here you will find ample reasons to change the manufacturers design.

Lou
Well being that I modify most things I own, my Jeeps are completely remanufactured and made better by me, thats really not what I find curious. But in the case of these booster straps, what I am understanding by everyones descriptions is that the bottom line is they add flex to a boot that they bought because of lack of flex. Almost like if they bought too much boot than they really want or need so they add this elastic strap which softens things up.

Do people with non-advanced or non-race boots add these booster straps?
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Do people with non-advanced or non-race boots add these booster straps?
Absolutely. The fluffier and squishier the liner the more obvious the difference. I'm putting a pair of the 2-strap ones on some Nordica Beast 8Ws this afternoon.

Again:

There is no change in boot flex.
You flex the same amount for the same pressure.
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Absolutely. The fluffier and squishier the liner the more obvious the difference. I'm putting a pair of the 2-strap ones on some Nordica Beast 8Ws this afternoon.

Again:

There is no change in boot flex.

You flex the same amount for the same pressure.
It would be cool if I could demo the straps on my Head WC boots, then perhaps I could better understand the benefits.
post #50 of 52
OK, now you lost me again. If they don't change the flex or the fit then how do they change the "performance" of the boot? If they flex the "same amount with the same pressure" and your boots don't fit better, then the elastic isn't doing anything. Your can't improve rebound from the flex without loading the elastic, which would require more forward pressure. If they are hauling the back of the shell forward more than stock straps, then it would be increasing the stiffness of the flex.

So you flex and rebound the same, and you are not fixing fit problems, but the performance of the boot magically improves? I guess I'll just have to try them to understand the performance gain.
post #51 of 52
All any power strap does is close the boot. This closure is normally rigid and is fixed by the power strap and buckles. To get very high levels of closure and performance with a rigid strap may be uncomfortable. The Booster strap introduces some elasticity and give to that closure, especially when the strap is worn between the tounge and the shell in an overlap boot. The feeling is that the boot tracks your movement better, and may allow for performance without buckling the top buckle as tight. A closer fit at the shin is tolerable because it moves when you need it.
post #52 of 52
Thanks Cirquerider, that makes perfect sense.

It sounds like you are substuting the aftermarket power strap for the top buckle to some extent, and taking a boot that is (too?) stiff and softening the initiation of the flexing process. If you crank a stock strap too tight on a stiff boot you get shin bang, but with the booster straps you get instant response with a softer initial feel. The flex of the boot doesn't change, it just smooths out the on/off feel.

Thanks for your patience everyone.

It doesn't appear to me like the booster straps are improving the physical performance of the boot so much as your feel of the boot, ski and snow. If you ever want to go all the way to the end of that spectrum you can try the Kryps. I think the 3-piece shell with floating tongue does essentially what the booster stap does. For many they are too soft and give too much feel, for others they are the holy grail of body/ski interface. I think it comes down to the old adage about there being too kinds of skiers, those who want to attack the mountain, and those that want to make love to it. Different strokes (and straps) for different folks.
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