PMTS near Boston? - Page 4

Indeed.

Hey carv_lust,

How come you are by far the most knowledgeable PMTS person to post at Epic, yet you only have 3 posts at Realskiers.com? (And 109 here!)

Have any of the PMTS folks who've taken a Harb course actually met carv_lust? Based on his post history, it would seem he was at numerous events.

Another question for you, carv_lust: On 2/5/04 (http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=97576#post97576), you state that your wife had attended a Harb camp and you were very impressed. You then noted, "I was once critical of his ideas and approaches, but I witnessed his program and now I am willing give it a try." [my emphasis] However, on 4/10/04 (http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=88613&highlight=academy#post88613 ), you indicate that you trained with Harb as early as 1993.

I have no dog in the PSIA-PMTS fight, as I have never taken a lesson of any sort from either school. However, if carv_lust is indeed Harald, then he has been fraudulently posing as a student who has benefited from the PMTS program. In my opinion, that would be highly unethical behavior.

If I'm wrong about all this, carv_lust, I apologize. But you have to admit, it all looks very suspicious.

I offer my comments on this whole topic as someone who at present has no affiliation with any mantra, organization or particular style of skiing or instruction.

Over the past couple of years I have received a few MA reviews and read counltess others and I have always been confused by the stand that persons offering their kind advice and point of view have. IE PSIA, CSIA, PMTS, other.

I am often left to sort back through countless threads to decifer what camp a peice of advice might be comming from. This is not so as I can throw out any advice but simply to organize the advice in my head as to which camp it is comming from for future research and understanding.

I am open to trying all things regardless of what camp it comes from and take a opinion that if it helps my skiing progress in the direction I want then that is positive. However if one move or technique is a building block of others it would be nice to then advance that from the same camp it came from.

I am all for MA thread posters quickly stating which organization or skill tree their advice will be comming from.

If we are all not big enough to simply let everyone state their point and leave the MA requester to their own intelligence to sort out the bunk and crap, then it's a pretty sad state of affairs I am afraid to say. Personal attacks etc... excluded.

The main part of Epic.com that I appreciate is the many points of view and the discussions that arise comparing one method to the other. I beleive this adds to the knowledge base and understanding.

I beleive that, for the most part, MA requesters are more than capable of reading all camps posts and tossing out / ignoring what they personally beleive to be bunk and crap. However without a clear indication of what camp it may be comming from it becomes just a bungle of information that is terribly difficult to wade through and hence devalues the whole process.

A MA thread does not just benefit the original poster but all those that read that information as well. I have learned alot from others MA requests.

There is merit to all organizations stands as if there was not then they would be just some nut standing on a soap box hoping people will listen. If enough people listen and jump on board then there must be something to it of substance regardless if everyone agrees or not.

I was going to start a thread on the question / idea of posting ones affiliation or knowledge base for MA threads but that point arose here a few times so I thought why not put it here and see where it goes.

Marmot, There is one at the top of the forum. I guess not everone posts there but most of the regulars have thier qualifications up there..

good point but it is a royal pain to go and read the whole thing and then remember who is what everytime. I have tiny brain syndrome.

Besides if one is of one camp or many why would they not be proud to show it. These designations take time and effort to acheive and meritt acknowledgement of such.

The stench that I spoke of in my deleted thread of late hangs heavy in the air now. Mod's, I know most of you read what I wrote, but are apparently not heeding my warning.

The wheels appear turning to rid Epic of the PMTS irritation. What we abhor at RealSkiers is at risk of blooming healthy at Epic. Re-dick-you-lus statements about the damaging affects of PMTS teaching methodology are erupting here on the "higher ground" site, mirroring the idiotic statements about PSIA that flow from HH. I have no tolerance for any of them, from either side.

Rid the site of voices that offend/affect the local heroes and value of their widget. If you chose to do that, then you differ from RealSkiers how?

Don't know what I'm talking about here dear readers? Look close, the future is lurking before your eyes. I don't like what I'm seeing.

I wouldn't worry bout that Rick. I have no problem with diversity. But it is fair to offer rebuttal and critique style.

Rick, While I am aware of your moderated post, and why it was deleted; what are you talking about here? There has been absolutely no interference by moderators in this thread. We are apparently in a lose - lose situation. We cannot win by moderating, and when we conspicuously do nothing, we are also at fault?: IMO, the community has done just fine figuring things out here without our interference. I find this form of self moderation to be very satisfying indeed.

Legitimate rebuttal is fine, Weems, but only if it's motivation is education, not retaliation,,, that's where character and credibility find their doom.

And just heed my words of prophecy, if you will. I believe there is more going on here than meets the current eye.

Of course it hasn't been interfered with, Cirquerider, why would they when things are going so well. I'm glad you read my thread, though I already knew you did. You know what I'm talking about. The real question is do you possess the metal.

I agree. And the intention of the rebuttal is definitely education.

And I have no trouble with the moderators, as I think they are looking towards protecting both the tone and integrity of the website on behalf of the members. I'm really comfortable with that. What attracts me here is that there is in fact a high standard of behavior. It permeates the website and shows up at the ESA's and the gatherings.

I used to feel the same way. I was attracted by the same qualities. It pisses me off to see them degraded. It pushes me away.

Let me be sure I understand. You are saying that the intention of the rebuttal post by Bob was education? I just reread it and I'm missing the educational component.

Perhaps the EpicSki community should nominate a small group of respected individuals to represent the larger community as community 'Ombudsmen'.

Such individuals (say three) would have the power to investigate complaints, evaluate overall posted content by members and to pronounce judgment on those 'contributors' who repeatedly act more as agitators than sincere contributors...

---
It's clear to most of us that Moderators are good for the needs of immediate policing of outrageous material - but not sufficient in dealing with purposfully disingenouos content, subterfuge and Stealth Marketing.

I'm tired of each thread devolving into a fire-fight between whoever posted Anything & the minions of the pmts cult. And if the minions aren't winning, they attack people from *here* on their own distant forum where the attacked individual cannot respond.

When the Flames are highest and Moderators attempt to quench them, then, the 'innocence' act begins. Our Firebugs now whine about how they've been somehow misinterpreted. They loudly proclaim the innocence of their posts, the innocence of their post's meaning, the innocence of their own intent.

Failing this argument, the Firebugs then rage on how EpicSki Forums should, nay MUST remain an 'Open Community' (...After all, it's such a wonderfully easy target for them!).

Failing this tactic, and though caught totally out in the open with their still smoldering matches, our Firebugs go on to decry the Moderators as 'Oppressors' and cite 'Freedom of Speech' to retain their access to their easy prey.

And finally as always, our Moderators are again cowed into submission - leaving this community with the same old Firebugs time and again.

Like most others here, I'm just tired of it.

---
But Hey! Way to go Bob Barnes!
I think it's about time somebody clearly painted the Invisible Man.


.ma

Amen.

I don't think the moderators are cowed into submission, and I do think they are honestly doing their best to keep the discussions open.

I don't think Fastman is included in your Firebug group. He has a powerful concern about keeping it open. I'm just not as concerned or worried as he is.

However, I think your description of how this process works from the puppeteer is really accurate and well put.

Finally, for Max_501, your statement "I think it's about time somebody clearly painted the Invisible Man." is an allusion to the type of educational rebuttal that took place yesterday. The educational components are about letting epicski members see what's happening more clearly, and about letting them know they don't have to put up with this. It was an outing, like your statements above, MichaleA.

Thank you, Michael, for your support for the moderated forums at epicski. I think we have a great team already on board, but perhaps another judicial layer is needed. In this thread we seem to have jumped the rails of the opening question and are nosing around the edges of a policy to deal with agents who stifle learning at epicski's technique and instruction forum.

The problem has arisen because a few bad actors are using our community's love of free speech to manipulate us into submitting to a situation we cannot abide, in order to maintain our values and keep our integrity intact (the vaunted open forum ideal).

Let's get this straight. The purpose of the technique and instruction forum is learning. Management's responsibility is to maintain an environment conducive to learning, not to guarantee free speech, though free speech and open debate is a core value of a liberal learning environment. A liberal environment for learning does not mean "anything goes." On the contrary, it requires that all voluntarily adhere to a strict Honor Code, including tolerance (and courtesy), honest intentions (good faith) and an open mind.

Think of it as an orderly classroom. What would we need to do to achieve it? What would we have to give up to achieve it?

edseas2,

Welcome to epic. Bob Barnes' post #9 has very relavent information that shouldn't be clouded by the discussion that follows. Good skiing blends skills and movements and no system of instruction has the corner on the market. You need to find a qualified instructor that has the ability to convey both good movement patterns and the fundamentals of skiing skills to you. Skiing is skiing and there is both effective teaching and ineffective teaching. The goal of effective teaching is to create a learning enviornment for you that will lead you to your goals.

If you are lucky, you will meet some very effective instructors that can create the learning enviorment that will lead you along the path you desire.

RW

Wow, those are some interesting accusations. Please provide us with a list of the names of the PMTS cult members that are doing these things along with specific posts that are troubling you.

BTW, if you just ignore the posts that you don't like then the problem goes away all by itself.

Max,

Until you acknowledge there are others outside of your little insulated world who are just as highly skilled and knowledable, if not more so, as your "mentors" you can expect that sort of reponse. You continue to believe and promote all knowledge eminates only from "Dumbmont". You are flat out wrong. Open your mind-it is a terrible thing to waste.

Again, you must be confusing me with someone else. I have never said PMTS is the only way. I have never said PMTS skiers are the best. I ski with skiers/racers every day that don't even know what PMTS is.

I wouldn’t say PMTS is a waste of time.

It taught me how to ski! I did what the book said to do, and it got me from falling all over the greens to having control and confidence on the blacks.

I don’t know anything about PSIA, so I won’t say PMTS is “better.” I just know that PMTS has worked very well for me.

Lifting and tilting that free foot, pulling it back, these things did wonders for my skiing.

Narrowing my stance did wonders too.

Looks like a Civil War going on between these 2 styles of learning. PMTS is all I know, and I know it works beautifully.

But I won’t dismiss PSIA. They obviously know what they’re doing too.

And that's the way it should be, NYCJIM! I am glad you have had good experiences. That's what it's about.

There is no civil war. Only a difference of opinions. I maintain that, if the changes you made and the advice you received were truly the things you needed most in your skiing, that any great instructor would have helped you find them. They are just skiing movements, nothing complicated, proprietary or exclusive to any "camp." They are also ideas that can backfire when improperly applied or misunderstood (hope that is not the case with you), and while they may have worked for you, they are inappropriate for other individuals--like many ideas. (Narrowing your stance, for example, is good advice for anyone whose stance is too wide. And bad advice for anyone whose stance is too narrow!)

I do reject the notion that pmts proponents appear to cling to--that these things you learned are things you can only learn from them. Think about it--it's an absurd notion! But it's OK--there's plenty of room in the world for differences of opinion. If anyone believes that the only way to get the pmts perspective is to go to a pmts camp, then (assuming you want that perspective) by all means--sign up for their camp! I don't think it's necessary, and I think you'll miss out on some great learning opportunities if you limit yourself to pmts. That is my opinion, nothing more, but I do believe I'm entitled to it.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Nicely stated, Bob!

I enjoy coming to this site because it’s given me a lot of knowledge in all areas of skiing.

Thanks for sharing.

Good Points

i have to say that i've always enjoyed the pmts/psia threads. every now and again (like this thread) it gets me curious enough to go over to that other site and see what got everyone so hot. i'll state now that i've never had a lesson and don't know what you guys are talking about when you get technical. i just love to ski and do it every time i can.

having said that, i saw that harold wrote this on realskier.com:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"SCSA, Thanks for the accurate comments about some of PMTS’s and Expert 1 history. But about Rusty, you can’t blame him for the way he skis or what he understands, he’s BB’s clone. He doesn’t and can’t make his own decisions about skiing because he doesn’t own them, BB gave it to him. So he’s hopeless until he sheds BB’s teachings. He won’t do that because he’s in the fraternity.

About BB. He used to follow me around like a puppy on the slopes. He even came up to me years ago at Keystone and told me he liked my stuff in the magazines, because as he told me, he did exactly the same thing, as I was writing about.

When I wrote my book he began to hate me because I told the truth about what his organization was really doing. As long as he thought I was doing what he did, things were fine, but as soon as he found out he didn’t know a thing about what I coached, he hated it.

Bob is to be pitied, not hated, not because he doesn‘t like me or PMTS, but because he‘s not a big enough man, to learn, experiment, expand his understanding and teaching. He keeps referring to the Mahres as his standards. The Mahres are old hat with old ideas that’s where BB falls as well.

Look, there are so many valued, world recognized coaches and athletes with World Cup experience that recommend PMTS and my new book. Where does BB stack up in that crowd, he doesn’t, he’s not a player.

He’d like to be and the only way he is trying to be, is by ripping on PMTS, to his followers. If they knew how much faster they could be better with PMTS then with BB teaching, BB would disappear even on his own forum.
He wrote a book about PSIA terminology, he has offered nothing to advance skiing, advance methods that will benefit skiers or instructors, except a dictionary for a system that is so screwed up that someone in it had to have a dictionary of terms, so even the instructors could understand it.


We have it going on with PMTS, they are on a back slide and they know it. No worries, these people have no influence on me, PMTS or PMTS readers, skiers or the skiing masses.

The new book will accelerate their collapse and influence beyond what has already been happening. I hope it doesn’t do it too quickly, as I don’t relish a BB or Rusty trying to learn or teach PMTS, they would screw it up and give it a bad name. Also be careful about going to a ski school looking for a PMTS lesson as they will tell you they teach something the same or they already do PMTS, which is a flat out lie. People I know were told this at Vail."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


i wouldn't give the time of day to a jerk like that. i don't care if he's right or wrong (not that i believe there is a right or wrong way to ski if you're having fun at it). but this guys an A$$. he deserves everything he gets in this thread. how can you defend a person like that???

you guys are better people than i; i couldn't have waited so long.

thanks bob; please keep standing up for yourself. the above post from harold is so wrong i wouldn't even know where to start.

I almost passed this thread up. It was good enough to read every post.

That may be true for you, Max, but it is not true for me or most other pros. We have both personal and professional interests in truth in advertising, in propagating good advice, in our profession, and in the success of students and skiers everywhere. Bad advice is bad advice, attacks are attacks, and lies are lies, whether I read them or not, and the "problem" does not go away when I ignore it.


Best regards,
Bob Barnes

BR,

Please note that I am not the Rusty of which HARALD speaks, although HH has confused us in the past.

Harald's confrontational style has been well established. It is a common debating technique and follows well known principles of group dynamics. For every "x" people it turns off, "y" people become firmly enamored of the program. The challenge for the "x" people is to NOT ENGAGE in the confrontation. Doing so is a losing proposition because the man is not interested in acknowledging errors, changing behavior or trying to find common ground. His view of his behavior is that if the truth hurts, you should change your behavior. Nothing short of a life changing event will change this. Therefore attempting to engage in a reasoned discussion has effectively zero chance of success. Further, although attempting to engage in a "deserved" discussion may feel good, one is only doing a disservice to oneself. Any attempt at engagement (either reasoned or deserved) merely legitimizes the debate. This is the trap. It's a difficult trap to not fall into.

There has been much wasted bandwidth between the two sites yakking about what's been said over there (from both perspectives). It may be entertaining. It may feel good. But in the end, it's not very productive. To a limited extent this is ok. Let's just not let it consume too much of our energy. Occasionally there are good discussions that highlight the good points and the bad points of each teaching system and their propopents. This is healthy and helpful for newbies and those seeking to cherry pick. It is a shame that there is such a low signal to noise ratio in these discussions, but this is not an unexpected or unintended result.

It's time to stop beating this dead horse.

Bob, as much as I appreciate your renewed interest in posting at epicski (and as much as I abhor the apparent reason for your renewed activity), could you tell us the address of your forum, I'm sure it's just as interesting.

I tend to agree with you Rusty, and I'm done with the conversation. I did participate in it for three reasons:

• I wanted my friends in epicski to know where I stand on this (although there are some reasons still unspoken), as I had never really expressed it before.
• I agree with Bob Barnes and want to stand up next to him on this issue.
• And this has been really fun!

Your advice is wise. Thanks.