PMTS near Boston? - Page 2

Are you suggesting that epic should ban all pmts talk?.

For all questioning as to why the OP is still posting at epic.. What if he likes to hang out here.. maybe enjoys Bobs wisdom, faifasys trip reports and other features that epic has to offer?..

Epic is not exclusive nor does it condemn PMTS. The comments of a few should not be taken to represent the beliefs of the many. It was unfortunate that a moderator attacked you, but he did apologize, and understand that Moderators are no more than members who were chosen to moderate, they are not owners, nor do they represent the beliefs of anyone but themselves.

I am not a PMTS proponent, but like others was very disturbed by you being attacked.

I commend Bob Barnes for his post, he is truly one of the great spokesmen for reasoned and experienced ski instruction pros. Thanks Bob!

Given the kind of vitriol that EpicSki itself and many of the excellent instructors who volunteer their time to post here receive over on the PMTS forum, is it really any surprise that once in a while one of the regulars here responds in frustration? It's an unfortunate result of the environment that Harald has chosen to create.

We all do our best to maintain decorum here, but we all know that there are a number of people who post on both forums and are less than forthcoming when they post here. As a result, it's difficult to know who and what to take at face value and what to question.

It certainly wasn't an attack SMJ. It was a very curious question. Why on your very first post would you come on here saying you drank koolaid and bought Harbs books declaring you are looking for PMTS instruction, when all one has to do is go to real skiers. I've spent the past few days reading Realskiers forums and the attacks on our most experienced coaches and instructors is led by Harb himself. All the arguments that ensue in our Tech forums here are mainlined by members of the Realskiers site. They know what they do. I really question why if you and they say that Harb's way and PMTS is so great and covers everything and his books are so good, why then do they even come over here to Epic Ski?

I don't read the Realskiers forum and perhaps you'd be better off not to. If they are so hostile and attacking, who needs to read it? No point in exposing ourselves to negativity. However we can be above and better than that here. It is just skiing, it's not politics, it doesn't feed or starve the poor, nor keep worthy people from getting jobs because of their race, nor create violent wars.

It's just skiing! If HH wants to be an a-hole because he thinks he's moving his feet and Center of Mass the RIGHT way and everyone else is an idiot, it's his and his student's loss.

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, and Epic should be inclusive of them all. We should show that we are aware that it is skiing, it is more than a craft, it is an art, it is a form of self-expression. There is no right and no wrong, there is only ability. The ability to ski in control in all kinds of conditions, and HAVE FUN DOING IT!

Maybe he was a troll. Maybe he was a newbie who didn't even know about Realskier. WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!

Epic has raised the bar on ski conversation. Do not be dragged down into the mud. Who was it who said if you wrassle with a pig you just end up down in the mud with the Pig and the pig likes it?!!

After recommending realskier.com, I googled it to see if I got it right. Google would not allow me to link to realskiers, I got a warning that it could damage my computer! I went there anyway directly and looked around a bit. Epicski was listed among the "recommended links" with a description that Epic is focused on instruction. So they must think there is something of value in the instructional forums here.

I got the same message along with this one...

Well Lonnie, realskiers recommends this site, despite the few bad apples who post here.

I will probably regret even bothering to respond again, but what environment are you talking about Steve? That's rhetorical by the way.
The only environment that epic needs to keep clean is the epic environment. Take responsibility here. HH has not created ANYTHING on epic. His responsibility is the PMTS forum. I have my opinions about that, but don't want to add to the vitriol.

You all have created two pages of nastiness in the course of a couple of hours based on a brand new member looking for info. I doubt he felt welcomed and will come back. Shame on those of you who were so incredibly judgmental. You can and should do better.

Happy New Years....how about some resolutions to keep the pmts flame wars quiet. OR, couch it in very,very funny dialect as in Weems thread.

this is a joke. right?

this is an attack????
"So, why are you posting here?"
that was all that the moderator said.( and it was a good question)
(if you want to see an attack, go to realskiers and look up what was said about bob barnes and bob peters.......it is vicious)

__________________
i dont know any of these folks, but this was obviously started and continued with base motivation by the originator of this thread

Then I'll not comment. I agree. Unfortunately, the Epic environment includes those who post here in an effort to degrade that environment and also to redirect traffic ("stealth market" their products). It is unfortunate that we need to be sensitive to and judgmental of such tactics, but we do. I think this is dramatically overstating the case, as duke walker notes. We'd all like that. Unfortunately, it's not up to us, and we often find ourselves on the defense because we don't take the offense.

Ed,

If you're still with us, sorry for having you stumble into the hornet's nest. For the record, the ACBAES 1+2 books only point to the harbskisystems web site. According to that site, the closest PMTS trained instructor to the Boston area is John Nelles in Lakeridge, Ontario Canada.

It is unfortunate that this topic was jumped on, but if you picked up the Kool Aid reference and bought skis based on info from Epic, it's likely that you've lurked long enough to know that there is good advice to be found here amid the other stuff. One of the reasons that this topic did get jumped on is that HH has oft stated that the people on Epic that post about PMTS don't know what we're talking about. With that in mind, please take the information in this post with a grain of salt.

Although (and because) Epic is officially technique agnostic, the best place to get pure Kool Aid is at the PMTS forum on the Realskiers site. The last time I checked, HH was recommending the PMTS camps over lessons from PMTS certified instructors in order to get "the best" PMTS experience.

Steve, I am sorry that you cannot take responsibility for the content that you post. Lars did. Those who are PMTS advocates are pretty clear about their loyalties. I have taken PMTS camps and find the content suits me. I also like information available at epic here such as trip reports, random humor and general ski info. The camarderie and mutual joy of skiing are here for all and I participate in that. You and many colleagues have just insulted a new poster and started a new flaming thread just to protect your egos. Enough. Enough. Enough. Get over yourselves. It's just skiing. Be friendly. BE INCLUSIVE. Show the way. Set the example. Let whoever wants to opine on OTHER FORUMS do so. YOU do not have to respond on this separate forum.

There is a very simple solution to this. I suggest that the "mods" place the letters "MA" next to our little green lights....and the letters "PMTS" for anyone who is known to post at HH's site. Readers here will instantly have the qualifications of the poster (assuming all tell the truth at the MA forum)available to be able to make an informed decision as to how much weight their posts should carry.

Clearly there are people here that post at both sites. I don't see that as a problem, put both designations up next to the green light. It will become clear to the readers here who is posting stuff of value (Ott would be a good example) and those that are here to flame (pick one).

For the record, I happen to agree with many of the concepts of PSIA, CSIA and PMTS, but not all in each case. I just go skiing and use whatever I'm capable of from each camp.

Happy New Year folks.

insults?

unpleasantness?

you're dreaming

this is the best damn entertainment available in the internet. i like nothing better than firing up the fella and watching him puff up his chest in his speed suit.



leave things as they are. they will run of all the intelligent students with their flotsam and leave the nut cases in place.

what the hell is ving tsun? :

don't let your friends at the other site know about the rx6's.

and by all means tape over them before you go to one of the camps.

it obviously hasn't been made clear to you yet that you don't get to pick your equipment. it's chosen for you.

FWIW, I think we (as a group of regular posters on this message forum) can do better when we participate in our discussions of certain topics and certain people.

I don't condone HH's criticisms of any ski instruction methods other than his own. Okay... maybe he's frustrated with his past experiences with PSIA and some (many?) of its members. He has strong disagreements, and is very vocal about it.

But the manner of his criticisms is belittling, humiliating, and very unprofessional.

I think it's just as bad, even worse, to stoop to that level in direct or indirect responses.


I know it's hard, but I think those who hold adverse personal feelings toward HH... and especially those who may have been personally insulted by him... should step up and "be the bigger person." There may be thousands of lurkers on this forum, so... setting a mature, professional, leading example will go a long way in improving the caliber and character of this forum as a whole.

Every time I read personal attacks and cheap shots against HH here... even those that are thinly veiled... I'm disappointed just as much as when I read his inappropriate criticisms of "other-than-PMTS" skiing.

I'm always impressed... usually at some sub-conscious level... when I see folks who are sort of immune to pusillanimous attacks against them, and immediately reduce those attacks to innocuous absurdity simply by maintaining their own position of integrity above those "little person" (and oftentimes cowardly) attacks.

(if that makes any sense)


It just may be that HH continues to make the harsh criticisms he does because it gets a reaction.


One thing my dad taught me...

If you were driving along in your car, heading confidently in a clear direction... and a small dog starts chasing after you, barking its head off... do you stop the car, get out, and bark back at the dog?

I think the little person barks back. The big person will usually take a quick glance in the rear-view mirror, smile or chuckle a bit, then keep moving confidently in the direction of their goals and dreams.


Some of you folks, I'm sure, have good reason to feel hostile toward HH. And by all means, this is an open forum, so you're free to choose what and how you contribute here.

But I'm going to do my best to be a "big person."


Happy New Year, folks! (I'm glad I found this forum this year.)

BAJA!

let me add the above to my list of new years resolutions.

dude......it's the internet

my gawd how long till my flight leaves ohio!

at least i'll be back teaching wedge turns tomorrow.

happy new year to all real and unreal skiers!

If you want a straight answer

Barnes, you are the most disingenuous poster on this forum. How can anyone view you as a believable or as a valued instructor, when you impersonate being knowledgeable in PMTS. Have you ever attended a PMTS clinic or been accredited?

Let skiers find a real PMTS lesson. PSIA instructors and ski schools do not understand PMTS because it is totally opposite from what PSIA instructors are trained in and teach.

If there is a PMTS trained instructor on a ski school staff, you might get a real PMTS lesson. But look for an accredited one. If you get a PSIA instructor who is not certified in PMTS, you will get a convoluted, mixed up, confusing session.

Barnes constantly tries to mislead skiers about PMTS. Why now has he reduced himself to open lies? Can his behavior be due to honest confusion about skiing or is it that he is so vindictive about PMTS that he has to rely on underhanded tactics, using his mellow, even handed approach, which is filled with attempts to mis-lead and is full of inaccuracies.

I hope skiers on Epic can see through these obvious attempts to discredit a valuable system that thousands of skiers are enjoying.

If he is so sure he can teach PMTS, why doesn’t he get an accreditation?

???

I don't follow. PMTS does not like Rx6?

I have the Fischer rx6 and like them a lot.

Seconded

and Happy New Year to Steerers, Pivoters, Tippers, Wedgers, Single Plankers, and anyone else on this site who shares in a love of snow, mountains, and playing with the help of gravity and terrain.

I hope this place is not just the internet but continues to strive toward a feeling of true community with people who have respect for those deserving and the ability to ignore those lacking in respect for others.

Baja's wonderful post Thirded (I know, not real english)
Happy New Years all, safe skiing, snow for the east coast and improving quivers for all!

PS. Uncle Louie, your idea of identifying all PMTS posters brings to mind yellow stars. Let's let that one go.:

In golf instruction given by PGA professionals , its unlikely that you would ever receive the same specific instruction by two different teaching pros. You could have one pro emphasis the turning of the body and the utilization of the "big muscles" in the body to hit the ball, and another pro emphasis more of an arm and hands control of the swing. One plane or two plane, it goes on and on. No absolutes and no one camp is producing better golfers than the other. Golf has survived with the diversity existing in teaching methods so why can't skiing have more tolerance for some diversity.

The more information we have available to examine the better informed skiers we become. That's a good thing in my opinion. No doubt there are people that absolutely hate this and desire ski instruction to be "black or white". The best of PSIA and PMTS skiers can make great turns . It's your choice to follow which instruction you feel suits your needs the best. When ideas get challenged I believe we benefit from the discussions. There's no doubt its gone way beyond this regarding PMTS and PSIA debate and its become personal and pretty viscous which is unfortuante.

Writing as one who lives in both the golf and skiing teaching arenas I'll admit I have never seen one teaching camp "attack" or "demean" another in the golf world. We will definitely debate teaching philsophies and the technical components of a swing but in a civil manner. Unfortunately, there are those that believe attack marketing is the way to fill their niche. I hope the golf world never goes there.

In his recent book, "The Plane Truth for Golfers", Jim Hardy put it this way: "There are two sets of fundamentals to the swing not one." He further goes on to state ""In the end it does not matter to me whether you choose to become a one plane swinger or a two plane swinger." "...its just a matter of going with the swing that you are comfortable with and (emphasis added) yields the best ball flight results." It is that simple.


Well put. Have you been talking to Jim-the message sounds the same?

It does make sense, a great deal of it, and I really liked your post, Baja.

Please remember, however, an unfortunate truth that we see demonstrated endlessly in the world of politics. Attack ads are successful. Whether we like it or not, they often make the difference in political campaigns.

If you repeat over and over and over again that your opponent is a _________ (pick your own insulting term), that message unfortunately will resonate with a certain percentage of the population. Many good, honest, high-integrity politicians have been defeated due to this kind of tactic.

I believe the same process is at work here. Baseless claims and personal insults, repeated over time, have an impact. An impact we may not even see in the short term. I know for a fact that several excellent instructors who have dedicated their professional lives to helping people enjoy the sport we all love have been driven away from this site by the insidious criticism.

So, while you are thoughtful enough to see the pettiness that lies behind the bombast, I wonder if everyone can.

Anyway, thank you for a very good post.