or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

PMTS near Boston? - Page 6

post #151 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
I think it's totally easy for beginning and intermediate skiers. They do it anyway, because the edge badly. I think this observation is what brought Ryman and Porter to develop the Wedge Christy of that day. All we do as instructors is mark it--bring it out. And I love it that it keeps both skis in the snow. If you don't pick up a ski, you don't have to negotiate its landing.
And the beauty of it is that when done right, the skis naturally seek the "fall line". No steering or other inputs are needed. I love doing a series of turn wher we aren't allowed to steer our skis at all until they reach the "Go Zone".

The other beauty of this 'movement" is that when done right this same movement helps us bring the skis on edge earlier in the turn. The is a great revelation for blue run skiers seeking more control of their turns.
post #152 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, there are some things you need to do to release. You are suggesting flattening the downhill ski while moving in balance. Ok, so how do I accomplish that? When I'm carving on one foot and I want to move from one turn to the next I flex the leg AND tip the foot to release the turn.

I know only a few people that can do it very well. I have a hard time seeing this being taught as the way to link turns for the beginning or intermediate skier.
Max, I agree with the concept of release (as in lighten the stance/steering leg from the previous turn) and tipping (pointing) that leg in the direction of the new turn. (Please forgive my lack of PMTS terms here and try to grab the concepts). I use this often, but only as ONE way to make turns and use other methods as well.

I has very good success teaching this to those who were able to comfortably link turns of any type, even at very early stages. I could introduce the concept of making the inside leg lighter vs. pressuring the outside leg as early as the first 4 hour lesson with the right group and under good conditions (meaning snow and attitude, physical ability etc etc)

The best verbal example I can explain here is to picture yourself on the center of a see-saw with one foot on either side of it fulcrum and you are perfectly balanced. If you want to make the left side go up....you can push down on the right side, or reduce pressure on the left side. Both make the see-saw rise on the left side.......relaxing/releasing is a better move.
post #153 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
The best verbal example I can explain here is to picture yourself on the center of a see-saw with one foot on either side of it fulcrum and you are perfectly balanced. If you want to make the left side go up....you can push down on the right side, or reduce pressure on the left side. Both make the see-saw rise on the left side.......relaxing/releasing is a better move.
I think I'm catching on. At the end of the turn are the skis weighted roughly 50/50? And then you relax the outside leg to release?
post #154 of 256
Quote:
I know only a few people that can do it very well. I have a hard time seeing this being taught as the way to link turns for the beginning or intermediate skier.
And yet, it is! And very effectively. (No, not always, and not even with close to the consistency that most of us would prefer. Bad teaching still runs rampant on our ski slopes. But that is a separate issue!)

Both Harb and PSIA acknowledge that a primary precept of good teaching is that we do not want to teach "beginning skiing." We want to introduce beginners to the skiing of experts!

Remember that inherent in being a beginner at anything is that you are not yet very skilled at it. So it is not a question of whether they can do it "well"--of course they can't!--but whether they can do it at all. You start at the beginning, and you get better! But if you begin at something other than good skiing, all you will get is better at something other than good skiing.

So what does "it" look like when it is done correctly, but not skillfully? Well, wedges do happen occasionally. . . .



Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #155 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If your body is in a position to support a fully pressured and engaged ski (as you have at the end of a turn) how does a passive movement get you out of that?
Max,

I think that both "moves" put you in a position to support the fully pressured/engaged ski. I'm not arguing that point. I was simply speculating, based on his previous posts, that Bob thinks that the lifting and tipping is a bit contrived and is a "less secure" position of balance than simply moving over the skis in the direction of the new turn to release them or by rolling the ankles, both of which serve to keep the skis on the snow. If lifting is part of that mechanism, I would be inclined to agree, as anytime we remove a ski from the snow, we compromise our balance.
post #156 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
...as anytime we remove a ski from the snow, we compromise our balance.
I really don't agree with this statement. Stability may be less but balance can be 100% perfect on one ski. In addition, a skier can be nicely balanced with both skis in the air.
post #157 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
...as anytime we remove a ski from the snow, we compromise our balance.
i'm no expert nor on one side or the other but i wonder if that's true. it seems intuitive enough but seems also to have a lot of room for exception, especially where the "lightening" (if i may replace "lifting") of a ski has an immediate and positive effect (engaging the edge of the other ski).

this seems included in the deslauriers' pedal hop-turn, implemented on steep terrain.

just thinking out loud.

doh! Max got there first.
post #158 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I really don't agree with this statement. Stability may be less but balance can be 100% perfect on one ski. In addition, a skier can be nicely balanced with both skis in the air.
Then why don't we just ski around on one ski then? Why do adaptive skiers use outriggers.

Don't underestimate the importance of a second point of contact, no matter how slight the contact.

Try this test.

How long can you stand on two feet?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes open?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed and the tip of your index finger slightly touching the wall or some other stationary object?

NO cheating!
post #159 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Then why don't we just ski around on one ski then? Why do adaptive skiers use outriggers.

Don't underestimate the importance of a second point of contact, no matter how slight the contact.

Try this test.

How long can you stand on two feet?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes open?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed and the tip of your index finger slightly touching the wall or some other stationary object?

NO cheating!
i don't think a second point of contact is being underestimated.

and, while i get the drift, standing isn't skiing. the fact that skiing includes GOING seems to allow that there may indeed more than one way to very effectively skin this cat.

i would suggest adding: don't underestimate the the efficacy of a lightened and "leading" ski.
post #160 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Then why don't we just ski around on one ski then?
I'm on one foot or the other all the time when I'm skiing aggressively and my balance is just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Why do adaptive skiers use outriggers.
Do they all use outriggers? I don't know. But, I can ski on one foot just fine without leaning on my poles for balance. I know lots of little junior racers that have also mastered this skill and its one of their favorite drills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Try this test.

How long can you stand on two feet?
Until I get tired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes open?
Until I get tired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed?

How long can you stand on one foot with your eyes closed and the tip of your index finger slightly touching the wall or some other object?
These last too don't apply as I don't ski with my eyes closed. They simply show the relationship of visual and tactile cues to balance.
post #161 of 256
Quote:
I want to be sure I understand...you are saying that performing a weighted release (just one step away from one footed carving) is totally easy for beginners?
Yes! As an example, think of a simple sideslip. Stand across the hill in balance, naturally, with a little more weight on the downhill ski (also natural). Slowly tip your skis (I agree with Harald's focus here on the downhill ski, tipping toward its little toe edge) until they release, and sideslip as fast as you can, keeping your balance still somewhat more on the downhill ski. Re-engage the edges and come to a balanced stop.

If a skier can do this, or even approximate it, it is an easy next step to guide the tips down the hill to initiate the turn, from the sideslip. It is also easy to release the edges in the exact same way from a moving traverse, or from the end of a previous turn.

Note that I've described something very similar to that "release" exercise Harald demonstrates on Expert 2, except without the pole plant. With both skis on the snow, and an open (not necessarily wide) stance, you can use your legs as much as needed to guide the tips into the turn as quickly as desired. There is absolutely no "pushoff" (which would require setting the edge(s) and slowing or stopping the sideslip), no "tail pushing," and no upper body rotation or blocking pole plant needed (both of which tend to twist the skis into a skid).

Note that this turn, by definition, begins with somewhat more pressure on the downhill ski. As the turn unfolds, and gravity and centrifugal force combine to pull the skier toward the outside of the turn, the pressure will move toward the outside ski naturally, so there is a "weight transfer" but it is entirely passive. The turn will finish with the weight still somewhat greater on the downhill ski, ready to begin the next turn!

Practice will increase both skill and confidence. Speed will increase. At high speed, the passive weight transfer may happen very rapidly, almost immediately after the turn starts. It can be hard to distinguish this passive weight transfer from an active weight transfer prior to the initiation, because the difference in timing may be only microseconds. But it is still significant. The active transfer disturbs the motion of the center of mass, causing a discontinuity, a "glitch" in the transition. The difference is much more marked at low speeds, so understanding is critical, lest we teach the wrong movements! We must be patient and allow the weight transfer to take time at low speeds.

As the beginning skier actively guides his tips down the hill following the edge release, it is likely that both legs won't rotate at exactly the same rate, and a small wedge may result. This is verydifferent than a "stem," which describes pushing the uphill tail up and away from the downhill ski, into a skid, generally before the downhill ski releases.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #162 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
And yet, it is! And very effectively. (No, not always, and not even with close to the consistency that most of us would prefer. Bad teaching still runs rampant on our ski slopes. But that is a separate issue!)
Are the skiers you are teaching using any form of wedge at this point (you mentioned a wedge as a possible negative outcome but I want to be sure I don't misunderstand you).
post #163 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan View Post
but this isn't skiing.
Right. It's much easier than skiing. Try removing that point of contact while moving at high speed over a slippery inclined slope....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm on one foot or the other all the time when I'm skiing aggressively and my balance is just fine.
And I will aruge that it's not (completely) fine. You might not be out of balance, but you aren't in your strongest position either. I'm not saying there you should never be on 1 foot, I'm just saying when you are, you ARE compromised. There are reasons to be there, but why go there if you do not have to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Do they all use outriggers? I don't know. But, I can ski on one foot just fine without leaning on my poles for balance. I know lots of little junior racers that have also mastered this skill and its one of their favorite drills.
How long can you do this? All day? Why or why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
These last too don't apply as I don't ski with my eyes closed. They simply show the relationship of visual and tactile cues to balance.
Ok maybe, but how long can you stand on two feet with your eyes closed? Why?

Furthermore, if I'm going to try and push you over, that is push you out of balance, will it be easier for me to do that if you have one leg on the ground or two?

Again, I'm not saying you cannot balance on 1 foot, or ski on 1 foot. I do it all the time. It's fun. I'm simply saying that it's not as secure a position as having 2 feet on the snow.

And if you've never skied with your eyes closed, you should get a partner and try it sometimes. It will really open doors in your skiing....
post #164 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Yes! As an example, think of a simple sideslip. Stand across the hill in balance, naturally, with a little more weight on the downhill ski (also natural). Slowly tip your skis (I agree with Harald's focus here on the downhill ski, tipping toward its little toe edge) until they release, and sideslip as fast as you can, keeping your balance still somewhat more on the downhill ski. Re-engage the edges and come to a balanced stop.

If a skier can do this, or even approximate it, it is an easy next step to guide the tips down the hill to initiate the turn, from the sideslip. It is also easy to release the edges in the exact same way from a moving traverse, or from the end of a previous turn.
Bob, I don't view the exercise above requiring anywhere near the skill level required to execute a weighted release where the weight is carried on the old stance/new inside foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
With both skis on the snow, and an open (not necessarily wide) stance, you can use your legs as much as needed to guide the tips into the turn as quickly as desired. There is absolutely no "pushoff" (which would require setting the edge(s) and slowing or stopping the sideslip), no "tail pushing," and no upper body rotation or blocking pole plant needed (both of which tend to twist the skis into a skid).
With the lack of everything listed above how do you guide the skis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
As the beginning skier actively guides his tips down the hill following the edge release, it is likely that both legs won't rotate at exactly the same rate, and a small wedge may result. This is verydifferent than a "stem," which describes pushing the uphill tail up and away from the downhill ski, into a skid, generally before the downhill ski releases.
OK, so you are rotating the legs to guide them. How?
post #165 of 256
Bob,

While you are here, I've got a question for you that's just a bit off topic but relates to your previous post. Quite often, when asked, skiers will answer the question "How do you turn?" with "I shift my weight from foot to foot." Now all of us know that simple weight transfer does very little in the way of turning the ski. However, this is what most skiers "FEEL" is happening as they move through the start of the turn.

Given your, and others, obvious position on the benefits of a passive weight transfer in certain situations, how do we, or even should we de-emphasize this aspect their perception. I know what I personally do, I'm just looking for other approaches.

If you think this should be a new thread, say the word.

Thanks,
L
post #166 of 256
Quote:
I think I'm catching on. At the end of the turn are the skis weighted roughly 50/50? And then you relax the outside leg to release?
You're getting close, Max. (This is fun!) As I described above, the weighting will be somewhat biased toward the downhill ski, maybe 60:40 or something, just as it is when standing naturally in a traverse. But that is not terribly critical. What is critical is not moving uphill at this point to transfer the weight, or even to make it even--you need to let your body move downhill!

The one flag that still catches my attention is your words "and then. . . ." This is critical! These movements, that flatten the skis and cause release, and that promote the center of mass moving across the skis and into the new turn, do not begin after the old turn ends. They do not begin when it is time to start the new turn. If you wait until then, you WILL have to do something sudden to get the movements started. Something like "relax the outside leg."

These movements originate way back in the previous turn, the moment you start reducing your edge angles and the path of your center of mass starts to move closer to the path of your skis. This can happen at the same time as you begin the "flexing" you describe, or it can happen without flexing at all--as it does on a bicycle. The paths of the cm and the feet will cross at the transition, either way. (There are plenty of reasons why you may want to flex low here, especially at high speeds, and in moguls, but that is another issue, and neither flexing nor extending the legs are essential for this crossover.)

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #167 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I think I'm catching on. At the end of the turn are the skis weighted roughly 50/50? And then you relax the outside leg to release?
The see-saw thing was the example I used to use to get the mental idea acosss to the beginning skier.

I think the weight would be very close to, if not 50/50, at the most timid or early skier level and anywhere up to 99/1 as people improve. I say 99/1 so we don't get into the arguement that you can't lighten or lift with no feet on the ground! The concept of lightening (prefered) or lifting works at any of the above percentages or any percentage inbetween.

The leg that is relaxing/releasing if you will, is the outside leg (that is about to become the new inside leg).
post #168 of 256
And what Bob said above my post while I was writing.
post #169 of 256
Holy smokes, guys! I need to get out of here (I've got work to do, and I'm driving to Aspen this afternoon to do clinics at Aspen Highlands tomorrow and Friday--Weems--you gonna be around?) Would you please stop asking good questions and let me get on with my life?



Lonnie--it's a great question. It's another one of those critical differences between what happens for us and what we must "do," isn't it? Hold that thought. . . .

Max--I would love to discuss leg steering, but I've got to go. For now, just consider that it involves very similar movements and biomechanics to tipping. Both involve rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets, and the two are often inseparable. Harald may hate me for this, but watch him in that scene in which he's leaning with his butt against the wall with his skis off. He demonstrates leg rotation there very nicely! My mantra for starting a turn with leg steering is "right tip right to go right." (You'll have to figure out the mantra for left turns yourself.) It is a very natural and intuitive movement, actually.

Sorry--gotta go!

Best regards,
Bob
post #170 of 256
>>>Quite often, when asked, skiers will answer the question "How do you turn?" with "I shift my weight from foot to foot."<<<

I just lift the free foot.

Test it out. When you get off the lift, stand on one ski and lift and tilt the other. You'll begin to turn right if your right foot is lifted and tilted, left if it's your left foot lifted and tilted.

I refer to it as “wireless turning” because it seems like magic. Just lift that free foot, tilt it and watch yourself magically turn. It’s freaky and it always works.
post #171 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Lonnie--it's a great question. It's another one of those critical differences between what happens for us and what we must "do," isn't it? Hold that thought. .
OK. Let's new thread it when you get back from Aspen.
post #172 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post
Test it out. When you get off the lift, stand on one ski and lift and tilt the other. You'll begin to turn right if your right foot is lifted and tilted, left if it's your left foot lifted and tilted.
I said nothing of tilting and most skiers don't either. Simple weight transfer, simply lifting one foot or the other, has little or no effect on TURNING the skis.
post #173 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Right. It's much easier than skiing. Try removing that point of contact while moving at high speed over a slippery inclined slope....
If you are in balance and able to ski on either ski at anytime then you simply transfer to the new ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Ok maybe, but how long can you stand on two feet with your eyes closed? Why?
I see that you firmly believe that you need both feet firmly planted on the ground when skiing to be in a strong position. I don't agree at all.

To answer your question. Until you get tired. As I indicated in my previous post there is a tactile cue that helps with balance. The second foot touching that ground is that cue. However, with your eyes open you don't need that 2nd tactile cue because your have the visual cue.

PMTS puts a big focus on learning to balance on any of your four edges. Prior to this discussion I didn't think this was a big difference from traditional instruction but you have convinced me that it is. I think your students really do need both of their feet on the ground as much as possible because of the lack of focus on balance skills. Learning to balance and be stable only when both feet are planted is a limitation in my view. All the expert skiers I know are quite comfortable on any edge that happens to be in contact with snow (and even when they are in the air). These guys are balance experts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Furthermore, if I'm going to try and push you over, that is push you out of balance, will it be easier for me to do that if you have one leg on the ground or two?
This is stability rather than balance. I don't need or want extra stability when skiing because no one is trying to push me over (well, except for the rare occasion of a boarder running into me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Again, I'm not saying you cannot balance on 1 foot, or ski on 1 foot. I do it all the time. It's fun. I'm simply saying that it's not as secure a position as having 2 feet on the snow.
Why do people want to water ski on one ski rather than two? Clearly two is more stable. Why do we remove training wheels from youngsters bikes? Because they've learned to balance and no longer need the extra stability. Maintaining a focus on two footed skiing is sounding alot like a crutch for a lack of edge balance skills.
post #174 of 256
All right--one more thing! Max, it is just my opinion, but I would not call a wedge a "negative outcome." It is simply. . . an outcome. A negative outcome would be when someone gets concerned about it and makes bad movements simply to get the skis parallel--like pulling the inside tail out toward the outside ski (which is a negative movement in the wrong direction, as problematic as pushing the outside tail out in the same direction).

Some may consider the wedge an undesirable outcome, but I think that is unfortunate. The wedge may be something students don't like, but that would only be because they are convinced that wedges are bad and parallel is good. I think it is unfortunate that "parallel" is ever marketed as somehow important--because, while it may be a characteristic of advanced skiing, it is far more important to focus on the principles of good skiing (at any level) than the characteristics of advanced skiing at low levels. I'd much rather have a wedge with good fundamentals than parallel with bad fundamentals, any day!

That wedge will vanish quickly with just a little more speed and a little more skill. And it may not happen anyway. But it really is not a big deal.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #175 of 256
Max,

This particular topic is obviously going to end at impasse, so focus on what you want to. I'll stand my assertion and you can stand by yours. Biomechanics however, is on my side.
post #176 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Some may consider the wedge an undesirable outcome, but I think that is unfortunate.
After dropping a grand on skis, $500 on boots, and another $500+ on the ski outfit...can you see how they might not want the outcome to be a wedge? :
post #177 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
After dropping a grand on skis, $500 on boots, and another $500+ on the ski outfit...can you see how they might not want the outcome to be a wedge? :
So explain to me why being able to slide on snow and make turns at the end of a day ISN'T success?
post #178 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Biomechanics however, is on my side.
Only when you are standing still with your eyes closed. When you are on skis and in motion with your eyes open they support my position.
post #179 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Only when you are standing still with your eyes closed. When you are on skis and in motion with your eyes open they support my position.
OK. Then I guess we aren't called bipedal for any real reason....
post #180 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So explain to me why being able to slide on snow and make turns at the end of a day ISN'T success?
I didn't say it wasn't a success. I was pointing out why someone might not view the occasional wedge result as a positive outcome. Really it was just an attempt at being funny. Sorry I blew it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching