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New Mantras, Old Bindings?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I just purchased a new pair of Vokl Mantras and was wondering if there is any reason not to mount an old (15 yr?) pair of Marker M48 bindings on them. The bindings are in excellent condition, they date from a period when I didn't get much skiing in : . Thanks
post #2 of 28
M48s? No wide brakes.
I wouldn't use them.
Wonder if a shop would work on them.
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 

Oh Yeah

Good point on the brakes. Thanks
post #4 of 28
A few misc. thoughts...

- Let's say you ski the Matras for 5 or 6 years. In 6 years time, those bindings will be 15 + 6 = 21 years old.

- If it were my knees, I'd buy brand new bindings. In my case, I buy new skis every other year and I always get new bindings with my new skis.

- I'm not sure you could get a ski shop to remount those 15 year old bindings anyway (liability). Perhaps others on this board would know.

Nice choice on the Mantras by the way. I demoed them a year ago and I really liked them.
post #5 of 28
I would not put a M48 on ANY ski. Awful bindings.
post #6 of 28
If your bindings are not damaged and are otherwise functioning well, you could use them. The National Ski and Snowboard Retailers Association has published its 2006-07 INDEMNIFIED BINDINGS LIST (retail shops and ski technicians may use this list to decide which older bindings they'll adjust and mount), and the old M48's are on it. Because they're indemnified, your local ski shop should be willing to mount your M48's on your new Mantras (btw, I haven't skied the Mantras, but from what I hear and read, you should have a blast with them), assuming again that your bindings are not damaged and are otherwise functioning well.

I have, however, skied the with the M48, and still have a pair sitting on my old K2 Extremes. As is the case with most Marker bindings, I'm of the opinion that they're excellent and well-built, and it's the obsolescence of the ski, not the binding, that has relegated the set-up to "inactive" status. [The funky green/black/white color-scheme of my particular M48's, on the other hand, kept me from pulling them and remounting them on another pair of skis ]. As you may now have already observed, SkiingAl, there are lots of opinionated skiers here; when it comes to bindings, you'll find loyal brand users and many others denigrating that very same brand. So bottom-line: If you like your M48's and they're still working for you, you can go ahead and use them.

As for the brakes, they can probably be bent out to fit your Mantras. In the unlikely event that they can't be made to fit your skis, you might be able to get replacement brakes without having to spring for all new bindings. Check with your Marker dealer or go to the Marker website.

I hope this helps.
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I would not put a M48 on ANY ski. Awful bindings.

Aww, c'mon! - the heels aren't that bad.
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Rick View Post
If your bindings are not damaged and are otherwise functioning well, you could use them. The National Ski and Snowboard Retailers Association has published its 2006-07 INDEMNIFIED BINDINGS LIST (retail shops and ski technicians may use this list to decide which older bindings they'll adjust and mount), and the old M48's are on it. Because they're indemnified, your local ski shop should be willing to mount your M48's on your new Mantras (btw, I haven't skied the Mantras, but from what I hear and read, you should have a blast with them), assuming again that your bindings are not damaged and are otherwise functioning well.
Thanks for clarifying whether or not the M48's are idemnified or not. However, I still have to ask the question: If he skis his Mantras for 5 or 6 years, those bindings will be 21 years old then. Does he want to ski on 21 year old bindings?

If the argument is "They're indemnified and don't appear to be damaged, therefore they're safe" (an argument I don't necessarily agree with), then my question is "Will they still be indemnified in 5 or 6 years from now?"
post #9 of 28
I'm with Phil, Marker binding from that era are the main reason many won't ski on Markers to this day. You can find some excellent deals on one or two year old binding that are better suited for skiing off piste. I happen to Like The Rossie/Look Pivot heal bindings. I have seen some deals online for Salomon, Look and Tyrolias You can pick up a good pair of bindings from $100-150.00
post #10 of 28
Safety is certainly an issue, but given the fact that deals on bindings are so easy to come by I have to wonder why this is even a consideration.
post #11 of 28

I've got some questions, too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave86 View Post
Thanks for clarifying whether or not the M48's are idemnified or not. However, I still have to ask the question: If he skis his Mantras for 5 or 6 years, those bindings will be 21 years old then. Does he want to ski on 21 year old bindings?

If the argument is "They're indemnified and don't appear to be damaged, therefore they're safe" (an argument I don't necessarily agree with), then my question is "Will they still be indemnified in 5 or 6 years from now?"
At what age does a binding become unsafe? If you wish to discount the indemnify list which is assembled with input from the companies that actually design and make ski bindings, is there a rule of thumb or specific cut-off that you would recommend for us in its place? Have there been some relatively recent technical breakthroughs that now make bindings on the indemnify list obsolete and dangerous, or for that matter, just less safe than newer models?

I would really like to learn something here, so on what objective basis is the advice to dump the M48's given?
post #12 of 28
considering that you can score a pair of Look PX12's for well under $200 (or even some P12 for around $175) or some Salomon S912s for well under $200 (around $189 or better if you search a little), and you can even go the Rossi Axial2 route for, again, well under $200, I'd just bite the bullet and get some new bindings.
post #13 of 28
The M48 is still indemnified, so yes it is still servicable.

How long will it remain on the indemnified list? 1 more year? 2?
Most manufacturers start dropping bindings off the list after 10 years.

SkiingAl has 15yr old bindings, does this mean he keeps his gear for 10-15 years? That would make his bindings 25-30 years old before he replaces them...not a good idea. They are his legs, he can do what he likes...I'd mount 'em if he walked into my shop, but I dislike most people so would probably just do it out of spite.
post #14 of 28
The Mantras are a real fine ski. Why not just dig up another $120 or so for new bindings? I found some Sollie 912 ti race bindings on the internet for about that in a few minutes. Couldn't be happier.
I originally had some Markers on them, but after a double forward ejection in the early season I realized that the old adage, friends don't let friends ski Markers, still held true. Luckily, due to some delam problems with the Mantras, Volkl replaced them and we didn't have to redrill. Well, half of them anyway. Volkl replaced one. So much for the "private forest- same tree" thing. I was assured that in the German factory, the first ski out is identical to the last. This seems quite true- after many days of happy skiing, they rock just fine even though the serial # are 500 digets apart.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Yeah I'm cheap, but I'm aging and my knees hurt so I put some new bindings on. Now we just need some snoe here (MT). Thanks for the responses.
post #16 of 28
There you go. M48s belong in a museum. Shiny new Mantras are just the trick for an old dog!
post #17 of 28
Markers suck dont do it
post #18 of 28
I did pretty good with M48's Racing's back in the day, and MRR's. M51's pre-released too much.

Older Look and Salomon's are great though, 997, 957, Zr's, etc, etc.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Rick View Post
I would really like to learn something here, so on what objective basis is the advice to dump the M48's given?
Dr Rick -

I've actually spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to reply to this. So I'll share with you a few of my experiences in 20 years of engineering, and follow it up with a "thought exercise". In my career, I've designed 11 electronic products from start to finish, and for the last 5 years I've been designing test systems with the most extreme, cutting edge technology available.

During my career...

* I've seen a medical electronics company make a decision on whether or not to do a product recall based on making quarterly earnings numbers, not on engineering judgement.

This of course has me wondering: who at Marker decided to indemnify the M48 and why did they make that decision?

* I've seen products fail in the field (i.e. in customer's possession) due to vendors supplying manufacturers components made of the wrong materials. Trust me, it can be very difficult and/or expensive to verify that every component in a product was made of the exact materials the engineers specified.

This of course has me wondering: are the M48 bindings that SkiingAl has made of the materials Marker's engineers intended them to be made of?

* I've seen experienced engineers numerous times debate on how to make a product safe and reliable.

If you gave Marker's own engineers a large collection of older Marker bindings (whatever "older" is), there would probably be a few bindings in that collection that they would have problems agreeing whether or not it they were still safe to use. Given that Marker's own engineers would have problems agreeing on which older bindings are safe to use, how would a ski technician make that determination, particularly if he didn't even take time to remove the binding's cover to inspect what was inside?

By the way, how did SkiingAl take care of his M48 bindings? Some people like to transport their skis on the roof of their car. Some areas put salt on their roads in the winter. Getting salt into the binding mechanisms could lead to corrosion and incorrect operation.

Sigh. Too much to think about, too much to worry about. The more I thought about it, the more I thought SkiingAl should just buy the new bindings and play it safe.

Since I like analogies, here's one to think about (thought exercise)... Your wife and your 3 preschool aged children are forced to make a 300 mile trip in the middle of the night by themselves. How would you feel if your wife did the trip in a 15 year old car that has 150K miles on it?

By the way, I only ski Marker bindings, so it's not like I was opposed to SkiingAl using the M48 binding because it's a Marker binding.

Dave
post #20 of 28
I have a pair of Marker M48 that were originally purchased in 1989 /90 and mounted on Hart skis. They were later transferred to Olin Selkirks and have been retired for at least 3-years. The black has faded to gray and the fluorescent green is just a memory. Aside from fading, I assume these bindings could pass a release check. It sure would be easy to check. Now, why would I take 16-17 year old bindings and put them on a brand new ski with 94 mm waist that the brakes won't fit? This is penny pinching at its worst. There are older bindings that would be very nice to transfer. Look Pivots and Rossi Axials come to mind, as do some of the better Salomon bindings. The Marker M48 always did its job, had minimal lift and looked like equipment from the late 80s. AFAIK, only Phil wears clothing from the 80s, but even he won't try to use the equipment.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave86 View Post
Dr Rick -

I've actually spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to reply to this. So I'll share with you a few of my experiences in 20 years of engineering, and follow it up with a "thought exercise". In my career, I've designed 11 electronic products from start to finish, and for the last 5 years I've been designing test systems with the most extreme, cutting edge technology available.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Dave; it was nice of you to take the time, and you obviously know your stuff.
Quote:
During my career...

* I've seen a medical electronics company make a decision on whether or not to do a product recall based on making quarterly earnings numbers, not on engineering judgement.

This of course has me wondering: who at Marker decided to indemnify the M48 and why did they make that decision?
I'm left wondering why those questions are specifically relevant to the M48? If the indemnification process is to be viewed with skepticism, shouldn't we also ask who at Marker decided to indemnify the Comp 14.0 Piston Control Turbo and why did they make that decision? For that matter, who at Atomic decided to indemnify the Neox+ 412 and why did they make that decision? I must be missing your point; I just don't understand how asking those questions could lead to a decision to dump the M48 in favor of other bindings. What am I not seeing here?
Quote:
* I've seen products fail in the field (i.e. in customer's possession) due to vendors supplying manufacturers components made of the wrong materials. Trust me, it can be very difficult and/or expensive to verify that every component in a product was made of the exact materials the engineers specified.
I've witnessed bindings fail suddenly 3 times; fail in the sense that their retention mechanisms would no longer operate. It happened to me, years later to an intermediate friend with whom I was skiing, and another friend while we were skiing the West Blitz Trees at Taos (btw, suddenly finding one's friend released from her binding and unable to get back into it near the top of a Taos-steep run is not a good feeling). In all three circumstances, the bindings were Salomon, and they were all newer bindings than the M48 is today; in fact, my friend at Taos had bought hers about 18 months earlier. Hers and my other friend's bindings were indemnified; mine were the 555's; I'm not even sure if there was such a thing as an indemnify list back then. Is there a general lesson to be learned here? "**** happens", and it can happen in all sorts of ways. And sometimes those happenings can bias us. In my case, I never bought another Salomon binding even though I recognize that there have been literally millions of problem free skier-days on Salomon bindings. It's just my bias from my own personal experience and observations; I don't bad mouth Salomon, but I don't want to ski on their binding again, either. But I'm not sure there's anything specific to the M48 that we can take away from either your experience or mine, and there's nothing in either of our stories to indicate that newer, indemnified bindings are safer than older indemnified bindings.
Quote:
This of course has me wondering: are the M48 bindings that SkiingAl has made of the materials Marker's engineers intended them to be made of?
I just gotta' ask: are the Comp 14.0 Piston Control Turbo bindings on my retailers shelf made of the materials Marker's engineers intended them to be made of? Once again, I seem to be missing your point; how does asking that question potentially make the M48 less desirable than the Comp 14.0 Piston Control Turbo?
Quote:
* I've seen experienced engineers numerous times debate on how to make a product safe and reliable.
Many times I've seen excellent physicians debate the best way to make a patient well.
Quote:
If you gave Marker's own engineers a large collection of older Marker bindings (whatever "older" is), there would probably be a few bindings in that collection that they would have problems agreeing whether or not it they were still safe to use.
And that distinguishes the M48 from the Comp 14.0 Piston Control Turbo or the Neox+ 412 how?

Marker is putting its own "bottom line" on the line by indemnifying the bindings that it indemnifies. You cited the example of a medical electronics company not recalling its product, but Marker wouldn't have to recall the M48 to drop it from the indemnify list, and there would be little downside to Marker if it chose to do so. Marker engineers and attorneys must have some confidence in the design and manufacture of the M48 to keep it on the list and not distinguish the liability it accepts from the Comp 14.0 Piston Control Turbo.
Quote:
Given that Marker's own engineers would have problems agreeing on which older bindings are safe to use, how would a ski technician make that determination, particularly if he didn't even take time to remove the binding's cover to inspect what was inside?
Dave, you have honestly lost me here.
Quote:
By the way, how did SkiingAl take care of his M48 bindings? Some people like to transport their skis on the roof of their car. Some areas put salt on their roads in the winter. Getting salt into the binding mechanisms could lead to corrosion and incorrect operation.
Good point; abused and damaged ski equipment should be repaired or replaced, no matter what the age.
Quote:
Sigh. Too much to think about, too much to worry about. The more I thought about it, the more I thought SkiingAl should just buy the new bindings and play it safe.
Isn't that question-begging? Sure, I buy new bindings with every other ski purchase, but the more I think about this thread, the more I wonder if there is really any advantage to doing so. I take good care of my stuff, and there's been no major technological breakthrough in bindings recently, so is it really "safer" to buy new bindings? It may feel safer to buy new bindings, but what is the objective data demonstrating that it really is safer? For instance, there are controlled scientific studies demonstrating lower injury rates with bindings that are properly serviced and adjusted compared with those that have not been serviced and professionally adjusted (Finch and Kelsall, 1998; Goulett, et. al., 1999), but I could find no such evidence showing an advantage to newer bindings over older ones that are still indemnified; is there similar evidence regarding older bindings on the indemnify list, or are we just working off of "feelings" and hunchs?
Quote:
Since I like analogies, here's one to think about (thought exercise)... Your wife and your 3 preschool aged children are forced to make a 300 mile trip in the middle of the night by themselves. How would you feel if your wife did the trip in a 15 year old car that has 150K miles on it?
Funny you should ask. I drove my 21 year-old Subaru with 198,000 miles on the odometer to Bachelor today (it's my "go to" car on powder days). It's all non-freeway driving from my house; for longer and higher speed trips we'll use one of our newer vehicles, because a lot has happened to cars since I bought my old Subaru. So I don't know that your analogy works here, Dave; lots of important safety features like airbags, multiple computer modules, and ABS brakes weren't around when my old Subaru was made; have there been similar revolutionary breakthroughs in binding technology since the M48 was made? If so what are they, and if they are really big enough to make a difference, why is the M48 still indemnified by Marker?
Quote:
By the way, I only ski Marker bindings, so it's not like I was opposed to SkiingAl using the M48 binding because it's a Marker binding.
I've got Marker, Rossi, and Tyrolia on my "active" skis. None of them are as old as the M48, but as I now try to look at the issue objectively, I'm not really sure that makes my current bindings any safer than the M48.
post #22 of 28
Dr. Rick - I completely stand behind my post. Enough is enough. Dave
post #23 of 28
Fair enough; thanks again for your very thoughtful replies. Rick
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
I did pretty good with M48's Racing's back in the day
By "back in the day" do you mean when you were 11?
post #25 of 28

Do these have the Rotomat heals?
 

post #26 of 28

I love how everybody is ignoring the real question: why in the hell did the OP purchase a pair of Volkl Mantras?

 

:)

 

and here's a FWIW: the 2012/13 Indemnified Binding List (i.e. if it ain't on the list no legit shop will work on it):

http://www.gondyline.com/indemnified.php

post #27 of 28

Dook, you realize this is a six-year-old thread, right?

post #28 of 28

^now i do...guess i best bone up on my winter reading comprehension skills (they go out the window when i'm concentrating on movement analysis).

 

that said, i hope he didn't sully those great 1st gen Mantra (slate grey w/orange sidewalls) with those bindings, though.

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