or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

exquisite short turns! - Page 14

post #391 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
What do you think about the application of rotary movements after the fall line to finish the turns?
Additional edge engagement while pressure is diminished will cause the femurs to rotate into the hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud
Can it be done with desirable outcome? What are the benefits in your mind if any? What are the negatives?
Positives are that increased anticipation creates more radical unwinding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
Can short to medium turns be "shaped" using rotary movements after the fall line without skidding or compromising a clean arc?
Not unless knee angulation is your bag.
post #392 of 406
I will agree with BigE, that perhaps you can use a bit of knee angulation to get a little bit of carved steering at the end of a turn. Knee angulation is just another way, I think, of saying crank the knees in a bit(which yes, turns the femurs in the hip socket). I don't like to use the word rotary here, because I think it inspires people to try to rotate their skis.

One thing I want to say, the video we saw of Cannonball some months back had pre-fallline tail swishing in it. By intention. If that was his intention, his execution was very solid. I have criticized this skiing in the past because I don't much see the point of tail swishing that way, but not everyone agrees with me and if you want to see a nice demo, Cannonball's video has it.

However, Bud is asking now about post-falline rotary movements that do not destroy the carve, which I think its far removed from what Cannonball was doing in that video. but its been a while since I saw the video or read the earlier comments in this thread.
post #393 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
To discuss my original intent before this thread got diverted to discussions about unweighting and perceived tail washing.

What do you think about the application of rotary movements after the fall line to finish the turns? Can it be done with desirable outcome? What are the benefits in your mind if any? What are the negatives? Can short to medium turns be "shaped" using rotary movements after the fall line without skidding or compromising a clean arc?



b
In order to make short turns like that you need to apply knee rotation (sorry BTS this is epic). We were thaught to do that in Austria, they used to call it "loosen your knees". The drill was something they called "dwarf skiing" where you grabbed your ski poles half way down and skid in a very low position. Maybe you remember the short turn video I showed you guys last winter (not the only one you did not like Bud), that was part of the drill.
post #394 of 406
Thread Starter 
There is a dogma here that is going to be difficult to break.

Let me ask this....once you have finished adding more angulation and edge angle to tighten your turns, what happens between this freeze frame and the edge change. In that period of time, have you abandoned the old turn and commited everything to the new turn?

Now, could there possibly be time in this period of time between maximum edge angle and flat skis in transition to do something else? Could it be palatable to continue turning the feet across the fall line while the torso moved toward the new turn apex until the time the edges released and tipped into the new turn?

Think about it. Don't base your thoughts on your base of skiing knowledge, base them on what might be possible! Entertain the sensations and try to create a picture in your mind of the mechanics I am trying to convey. Visit the other new thread on this topic and perhaps we can share something new to you that will improve your personal skiing???

b
post #395 of 406
Yes bud, but if you flatten your skis they will wash out. if you angulate your knees you can get that last little bit of turn you are talking about, even as your CoM begins to transition across. Perhaps you misunderstood my previous post. I was not disagreeing with you about using knee angulation to do exactly what you suggest.
post #396 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
There is a dogma here that is going to be difficult to break.

Let me ask this....once you have finished adding more angulation and edge angle to tighten your turns, what happens between this freeze frame and the edge change. In that period of time, have you abandoned the old turn and commited everything to the new turn?

Now, could there possibly be time in this period of time between maximum edge angle and flat skis in transition to do something else? Could it be palatable to continue turning the feet across the fall line while the torso moved toward the new turn apex until the time the edges released and tipped into the new turn?

Think about it. Don't base your thoughts on your base of skiing knowledge, base them on what might be possible! Entertain the sensations and try to create a picture in your mind of the mechanics I am trying to convey. Visit the other new thread on this topic and perhaps we can share something new to you that will improve your personal skiing???

b
The reason we need knee angulation (rotation of the femures in our hipp sockets/pointing of the knees) is that our skis are not offcet enough in ref to our upper body to create sufficient edge angles while making such short turns. Also, at the beginning of the turn depending on the slope pich soemwhere past the transition in the high C part of the new turn our skis become flat on the snow. This is the reason our ski tails swach out without much snow flying from underneath them before the fall line.

Im not sure if I understand your question correctly but the turn segment you are refering to is where 95% of all action takes place. What do you suggest happens?
post #397 of 406
Thread Starter 
I am suggesting, that with practice, a muscular effort to turn the feet through the turn completion can in fact improve the turn finish without "tail washing". This movement happens as the skis are de edged not during a period of increased knee angulation. I am talking about a slightly later phase of the turn than when knee angulation is effectively applied. The duration of this said phase is rather brief in duration but none the less significant IMO. It requires very accurate movements, timing, and balance. It requires the hips being on the right path across the skis. The movement improves the turn finish rather than compromise it.

b
post #398 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
if you flatten your skis they will wash out.
Maybe, maybe not.

Could a skilled skier manage the forces on the skis so that they don't wash out even as the skis are being flattened?

Could the skier "pull" the skis into a bit more arc with an active inside foot near the end of the turn even as the CoM is moving toward the new turn?

Could this be added after increasing edge angle to achieve a tighter arc? I.e., crank 'em over toward the end of the turn, just as BTS sez, and then, as the skis flatten a bit ('cause the CoM has moved too far toward the new turn to let our superstar skier maintain the edge angle), balance just right to prevent the wash out and add a just enough steering to encourage the skis to follow their arc a little longer - but just a little.

Clearly the skis will tend to straighten their line of travel as they are flattened. Could the skier add just enough of the dreaded rotary to persuade the skis to continue the arc for another meter or two before they are allowed to straighten their path?

Is this possible, or am I in Fantasyland?

How does one add a bit of a round "fish hook" to the end of a turn, if one chooses to do so?

Is there more than one way to do this?
post #399 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I am suggesting, that with practice, a muscular effort to turn the feet through the turn completion can in fact improve the turn finish without "tail washing". This movement happens as the skis are de edged not during a period of increased knee angulation. I am talking about a slightly later phase of the turn than when knee angulation is effectively applied. The duration of this said phase is rather brief in duration but none the less significant IMO. It requires very accurate movements, timing, and balance. It requires the hips being on the right path across the skis. The movement improves the turn finish rather than compromise it.

b
It would be interesting to see a demo or photograph of what you mention. Keeping the hips in the right place is the most important thing but knee angulation moves you hips outwards (rotation). What you need to do is to angulate at your hips at the same time. Knee angulation is just finetuning an already perfect position.
post #400 of 406
Thread Starter 
Please try not derail what could be a great conversation by trying to revert everything back to your beloved angulation and edging TDK6. Try to open up to the possiblities and be part of the possible instead of the impossible. Thank you in advance. Give yourself a chance to learn something new rather than try to fit this concept into a neat little compartment of existing understanding.


Thanks Jchooley, for entertaining the possiblities! let's keep the exploration going!


b
post #401 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Please try not derail what could be a great conversation by trying to revert everything back to your beloved angulation and edging TDK6. Try to open up to the possiblities and be part of the possible instead of the impossible. Thank you in advance. Give yourself a chance to learn something new rather than try to fit this concept into a neat little compartment of existing understanding.
Bud:

Here's what tdk6 said. I added the bolding just for emphasis.

"It would be interesting to see a demo or photograph of what you mention. Keeping the hips in the right place is the most important thing but knee angulation moves you hips outwards (rotation). What you need to do is to angulate at your hips at the same time. Knee angulation is just finetuning an already perfect position."

Now, I'm not enough of a technician to know whether the middle sentence about knee angulation moving the hips outward is correct or not, but it seems to me that the last two sentences are absolutely correct.

I really believe that the hips should be used as the primary mechanism for "angulation". Moving the hips seems like the most immediate, strongest, most effective way of achieving angulation. Once you've used the hips to get approximately the correct angulation for a given turn, the knees can finetune whatever needs to be tweaked for that turn.

I'm still of the opinion that this is what Bob Barnes is describing in his "independent Leg Steering" posts as well.

Why not use the hips as the gross ("gross" being used in a good context here) mechanism to give the primary angulation, and then use the slight movements of the knees to make the minute adjustments as we progress through the turn?

I could be all wet, but that just *feels* right to me.
post #402 of 406
Thread Starter 
Bob,

That all sounds good, but where in all that is the rotary power being employed. I can visualize both turn transitions using edging and pressure as primary skill blend and I can visualize turn transitions using rotary, edging, and pressure control movements all in harmony. The two kind of turns will show hip and knee angulation so I fail to see how just elluding to angulation differentiates a turn using active rotary movements from one that does not??? Looking at Bob Barnes video clip I do not see alot of knee angulation but I do see active rotary movements. I think more of the feet turning rather than the knees angulating to finish the turn.

b
post #403 of 406
Thread Starter 
This past spring at ESA Tahoe Wade Holiday and I were skiing some short turns down a rather steep slope with very hard snow. After that run, Wade asked if he could try my skis, so we switched. I wasn't quite sure why he wanted to switch at the time but after skiing a few turns on his Nordicas I commented that his skis were quite a bit sharper than mine and that I needed to put an edge on mine. His comment was he had wanted to try my skis because they appeared to be sharper than his because my turns down the previous hard steep run looked much gripper and rounder than what he was able to do with his skis. The difference being, I was focusing on the kind of turns we are discussing in this thread using active rotary rather than a harsh edgeset with angulation.

b
post #404 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
This past spring at ESA Tahoe Wade Holiday and I were skiing some short turns down a rather steep slope with very hard snow. After that run, Wade asked if he could try my skis, so we switched. I wasn't quite sure why he wanted to switch at the time but after skiing a few turns on his Nordicas I commented that his skis were quite a bit sharper than mine and that I needed to put an edge on mine. His comment was he had wanted to try my skis because they appeared to be sharper than his because my turns down the previous hard steep run looked much gripper and rounder than what he was able to do with his skis. The difference being, I was focusing on the kind of turns we are discussing in this thread using active rotary rather than a harsh edgeset with angulation.

b
Thanks Bob for your good words and for understanding.

Bud, Im not really sure what you are getting at. Im not aware of other discussions. Never saw the video you mentioned. This whole rotary discussion is kind of over my head but this much I know, using our hips as momentum and rotating them towards the outside causing banking and reduced edge set to swing us into the turn with swashing tails is bad bad bad. I think both of us can agree on that. However, no matter how much sertain reputated skiers claim there is no rotation needed for turning I believe in this: winding and unwinding! If that is rotary I dont care. Let it be. Or rename it. I think that when you make very short turns you kind of use the showels on your skis and the sidecut and the edges, angulate and counter and and wind your self up and finally at transition you as you ski into heavy antisipation you unwind and start back at the beginning of this sentance.
post #405 of 406
Thread Starter 
Tdk6,

There are kinda parallel threads on this topic going right now. Please check out the other one (Can rotary movements help turn completions?), because there have been some great posts made by MA and BTS and hopefully myself which really help clarify the mechanics I am trying to convey.

b
post #406 of 406
Bear Bryant once paid the ultimate compliment to a rival coach: "He can take his'n and beat your'n, and he can take your'n and beat his'n." These guys don't ski the way I like to, more independent leg, etc. But I have little doubt they could take my style and do it much better than me.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching