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dynamic carving - Page 3

post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
For those that are wondering, I posed the question to my fellow instructors as such, "In hard snow conditions, do you prefer to ski, 1) totally committed to 1 ski, the outside ski, in order to obtain maximum pressure on the one edge. The idea behind this is the "ice skater" theory where that one edge will cut more deeply into the snow, providing better edge grip along that one edge. Or 2) The "two edges" technique, were you try to distribute pressure along both edges in order to decrease the pressure on the outside ski to keep the skis for breaking free or skidding out".

It was understood among all of those in the discussion that no matter which technique was used, that the outside ski was still the dominate ski.
That sounds like there is a difference in description more than a difference in technique. Does "totally committed to 1 ski" mean that I jump onto it at the start of the turn, or that I need to pressure it progressively until it engages enough that I can commit my weight to it? For me, the first approach has never worked, so it must be the second approach.
The "ice skater" model of skiing ice doesn't real work. An ice skater can hammer his skate down and the edge will always engage. A skier who hammers it down the way a skater can will usually overpower the ski and lose the edge. That's why you need to be a little 2 footed at the turn initiation, in order but to work it to an outside dominant weight distribution.

BK
post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
You play this game frequently enough that we all see it and we're all tired of it. We know you have an opinion that disagrees with all things two-footed. Fine. Say so with some integrity - but don't feed us bs 'questions' in your never-ending proselytizing for pmts! :

.ma
I'd suggest you put me on your ignore list as you clearly don't like to read what I write.

BTW, I don't know why you think that I disagree with two footed skiing or that PMTS doesn't teach it. We learn to ski on either foot at anytime or any combination of weight on both feet. Whatever the conditions we are skiing require.
post #63 of 89
BK,

I think for the purpose of the locker room discussion, that it meant to be totally committed to that ski at the point where the pressure pulling that ski to the outside of the turn is at it's maximum. In my description, tried to be as close to what was discussed/advocated by each particular camp earlier in this same thread.

If others have other interpretations, that was not what was intended.

L
post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
BK,

I think for the purpose of the locker room discussion, that it meant to be totally committed to that ski at the point where the pressure pulling that ski to the outside of the turn is at it's maximum. In my description, tried to be as close to what was discussed/advocated earlier in this same thread.

If others have other interpretations, that was not what was intended.

L
I just noticed that you are from Alta. You have no credibility in this discussion.http://forums.epicski.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


BK
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
I just noticed that you are from Alta. You have no credibility in this discussion.http://forums.epicski.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


BK
I haven't always lived in the promised land....

BTW is was kinda slick (for us) yesterday....
post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
OK Ghost… where’s that follow-up with more detail? Why does a ‘stiff’ ski (longitudinally) hold so much better on Ice than a soft ski? (Inquiring minds want to know)
Well it seems some people are still arguing about one or two skis, but since you ask, short answer, it doesn't.

Take my WC SC as an example (The SG is stiffer, but not shaped). The larger surface area of the tip and tail provide a greater force near the tip and tail with any given pressure from the snow. In order to transmit this force to the centre of the ski, where skier is, the skis must be stiff, otherwise the ski would fold up. For the mathematically inclined, the shape the ski will adopt depends on longitudinal variation of Young's modulus of elasticity (strain/stress ratio), and the area of the ski.

Given an ideal balance in solid snow conditions, what happens when the ski is cranked over a bit too far on ice? The extra stiffness built into the the ski to accommodate the extra tip loading due to the extra girth at the tip brings the force up to the tip, but the edge grip on the ice is not increased as it would be on snow. The skis stiffness acting to return it to the natural camber breaks the edge out of its groove, and the shape adopted by the ski is less curved. Due to the exact shape of the sidecut and flex of the ski a point is reached nearer the boot where conditions are such that the edge will hold. Consequently once pushing the envelope past the point of a pure carve on ice, one can be skiing with the centre portion of the ski cutting the ice like a skate, while the tip and tail are "scarving".
post #67 of 89

Go Cart

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
...Cool. I’d never heard that before. How does such a weight-shift to the outside help here? Is it to help start the turn, to help tighten it, or to help in rolling over a few times to change lanes?
You really need to interact with the centrifugal force and its to increse pressure on outside tires for better traction. To start turning you turn the stearing weel .
post #68 of 89
I have read most of these posts and they seem to be all over the place so me being a total nut job lover of ice I had to ask myself what it is that I do that I find ice to be a delightful experience even in bumps.

Do I have my edges sharp all the time? Ahhh well no, not even on ice. Sharp edges definitely help but they are not the key.

Do I dominate the outside ski all the time? Ahhh well not totally. In fact I can be all over the place here to from totally on the outside ski to much of the weight on the inside ski. It all depends on whats happening right now.

Do I skid my skis? Ice can be skied quite effectively with shallow angles and scarvy turns. Ice can also be effectively skied with railroad track type turns.

So what is the key? For me the key is going through the neutral/transition phase of the turn very smoothly, achieving a very good neutral at the time of edge change, constantly move/never a park n' ride phase in my turns and skiing the slow line fast as hell.

Going through a very good neutral position produces round turns, no abrupt movements and an uninterupted continuous center of mass flow. The skis go from edge to edge very early in the turn and run smoothly regardless of whether my skis are at low edge angle and scarving or at high edge angles and haulin. No abrupt movements, no poping at the end of a turn, no comma shaped or z shaped turn just smooth quiet power with the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

Speed control is all done with line selection, timing and core intensity. The gas is always on, never the brakes.

The same applies to skiing bumps of solid ice, my favorite terrain. Ice is wonderful cuz most of the work of skiing disappears but the thrill does not and all the senses come alive.
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Ice is wonderful cuz most of the work of skiing disappears but the thrill does not and all the senses come alive.
And there isn't anyone to cut you off because they already fell down.
post #70 of 89
To effectively answer this question, one must first figure out the definition of ice.
Many people call tough, bulletproof snow ice. This can actually some of the greatest carving snow around. Glory snow, I like to call it. This is because if you have sharp edges that will bite, you can put all of your strength and weight into that ski and it will not lose its edge. It will not break the snow. This means sharp, hard turns and complete trust from the skier in his skis.
However, if it is true ice, beyond the ability for your edges to grip, then you must split your weight and and ride it. That way at least if you lose the outside edge you temporarily have the inside edge to ride while you try and get the other one back on track.

Hope this helped, Ethan.
post #71 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I have read most of these posts and they seem to be all over the place so me being a total nut job lover of ice I had to ask myself what it is that I do that I find ice to be a delightful experience even in bumps.

Do I have my edges sharp all the time? Ahhh well no, not even on ice. Sharp edges definitely help but they are not the key.

Do I dominate the outside ski all the time? Ahhh well not totally. In fact I can be all over the place here to from totally on the outside ski to much of the weight on the inside ski. It all depends on whats happening right now.

Do I skid my skis? Ice can be skied quite effectively with shallow angles and scarvy turns. Ice can also be effectively skied with railroad track type turns.

So what is the key? For me the key is going through the neutral/transition phase of the turn very smoothly, achieving a very good neutral at the time of edge change, constantly move/never a park n' ride phase in my turns and skiing the slow line fast as hell.

Going through a very good neutral position produces round turns, no abrupt movements and an uninterupted continuous center of mass flow. The skis go from edge to edge very early in the turn and run smoothly regardless of whether my skis are at low edge angle and scarving or at high edge angles and haulin. No abrupt movements, no poping at the end of a turn, no comma shaped or z shaped turn just smooth quiet power with the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

Speed control is all done with line selection, timing and core intensity. The gas is always on, never the brakes.

The same applies to skiing bumps of solid ice, my favorite terrain. Ice is wonderful cuz most of the work of skiing disappears but the thrill does not and all the senses come alive.
Great post! It's good to hear from smeone who has actually skied ice, as opposed to Utards for whom it is just a theoretical thing.

BK
post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
Great post! It's good to hear from smeone who has actually skied ice, as opposed to Utards for whom it is just a theoretical thing.
Thanks, dude, (I just love being called a utard) but believe it or not, I've done WAY more skiing on east coast ice than I've done here.
post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Thanks, dude, (I just love being called a utard) but believe it or not, I've done WAY more skiing on east coast ice than I've done here.
It was your locker room polls that set me off. BTW I used to live in Utah myself, but that's a long story.

BK
post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
It was your locker room polls that set me off.
Yes, and very few of those folks grew up or have skied exclusively in Utah too. It may interest you to know that one of the folks I polled was a former PSIA Demo team member. These folks know what they are talking about...
post #75 of 89
As one of my ski school directors used to say: pretend you are skiing on raw eggs, break one and you are gone. Smoothness and balance is the key, if the skis lose grip and slide sideways, as will happen for sure and often, even if just for a moment, make sure you slide with them in balance, hard to do if you are too much inclined or angulated.

After a couple days of rain and then a hard freeze at Boston Mills we often had ice where you could see the grass underneath through the ice and the people would just be in the lodge at in the bar. Or the snow machines were left on too long and as the temp rose over freezing they were spitting water. Not even the instructors would go free skiing. Ziggy, our director, would come to the school shack and chase us out to ski under the chair or anywhere we could be seen from the lodge to make controlled turns on the ice.

You wouldn't believe how many lessons it created right there. Skiers would see that ice can be skied in control and wanted to learn how.

....Ott
post #76 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Or the snow machines were left on too long and as the temp rose over freezing they were spitting water.
Nice. We used to call them "sprinklers", as in "They need to turn the sprinklers off", when they do that.

L
post #77 of 89
Really interesting thread, with some well thought through contributions from obviously very experienced and skilful skiers. I just have to chime in so here's a slightly different take on it.

We've all agreed (I think!) that sharp edges help on ice. But just think for a moment what a sharp edge does. Its purpose is to increase pressure - nothing more and nothing less - pressure is force / area. The smaller the area the higher the pressure.

Gravity endows our body's mass with a force, that is applied to the skis when we stand on them. If this force is applied to a smaller area - by having sharp edges (and using them as opposed to using the flat of the ski) then pressure is increased. Concentrating the force on one ski alone - i.e. using half the edge area of two skis - also increases the pressure applied by the ski to the ice. (NB - the total force remains the same)

The other main source of force is the centripetal force that the ice must exert against the ski for a turn to be made - the turning skier presses against the snow, which must resist it. (In physics terms the momentum of the skier is in the direction he is travelling, and to make him turn a force has to be applied to deflect him, causing angular - as opposed to linear - acceleration of the skiier through an arc).

The downside comes (literally!) when the force applied exceeds the ability of the ice to withstand it - in which case the skiier is better off spreading the force slightly more by using two skis. And I'm guessing you top guys do this instinctively from experience.

The remaining question is why is the pressure necessary? After all on soft snow we prefer to spread the force across the greater area of two skis, and not only that but we tend to use the base of the ski more and the edge less. The answer is because ice and snow have low friction - if we simply put the base of the skis flat we'll skid, as the friction available will not hold us (good job or we'd never get anywhere!). So in a turn - where as described above we need the snow/ice to resist - we need to find another way, which is by building up a shelf of compressed snow under the skis that is sufficiently strong to hold us; in ice, that's a problem as the ski doesn't sink into the hard ice, hence the need for increased pressure. But if we overdo the pressure - remember that's the amount of force applied to a unit area of snow/ice - then the snow/ice may be too weak to resist that force and the ski will break away. It's a delicate balancing act (again, literally!).

I'm guessing that on hard ice a sharp edge may even function the same way as an ice-skate edge - i.e. the pressure is sufficient to cause the ice to melt and therefore assists the ski in cutting in (providing the required small shelf of material necessary for the ski to ride on). Maybe someone could confirm that?

As I recall John Shedden in his book "Skilful Skiing" was a definite proponent of not padding down too much with the inside ski, on the grounds that this can interfere with good pressure control. That was written many years ago when big skis roamed the world but still, it makes you think.

Cheers
Richard
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
It may interest you to know that one of the folks I polled was a former PSIA Demo team member. These folks know what they are talking about...
Lonnie you have my sincere apologies for using your post this way but I just can't help pointing out that Harald Harb is a former Demo team member and you just admitted that he knows what he is talking about.
post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Without (early initiation) I find that I have a tough time holding an edge on ice. Once I start a ski skidding on ice its pretty tough to get it engaged again so I work hard to get it engaged early. Takes practice.

I had a coach who had the unfortunate job of teaching us to carve in the 70's. His mantra was edge, then pressure, then leverage. If you had pressure before edge, the skid started and the turn was doomed. Much has change today but that principle still holds....get the ski on edge early.

The coaches daughter became a NCAA All Amercan and US Team Member. I sortof learned to carve.

When it is just packed I ski quite two footed, when it is ice I'm more outside dominant, but either way the best carves start with early edges.
post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Lonnie you have my sincere apologies for using your post this way but I just can't help pointing out that Harald Harb is a former Demo team member and you just admitted that he knows what he is talking about.
Max,

In all fairness, I've never said that Harald doesn't know his stuff or that his stuff doesn't work. I've simply said that there are some underlying issues with his method that I think people should know about.

L
post #81 of 89
Everyone here has been talking about how much edge to use, which ski to pressure, etc. However, I'll submit that the answer to the OP's question (which, in case anyone forgot, was about getting down an icy race course without slipping sideways on boilerplate) has a lot less to do with all of those reasons than it does to do with WHEN (is that emphasised enough?) you apply the pressure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a look at some of the images on Ron Lemaster's site: and notice when they STOP turning and start transitioning to the new turn. This is VERY, VERY important! When skiing on ice, especially racing, get as much pressure and turn the skis BEFORE the fall line.

The issue here is that once you get past the fall line, you are resisting the force of gravity to make the turn (gravity wants to pull you back into the fall line). If you make an arc before the fall line, gravity actually helps you turn toward the fall line, meaning there will be a lot less lateral pressure on the edges, which is what causes you to skid out of your intended line.

Notice in LeMaster's images, that by the time they get to the gate, they are nearly finished turning toward the next gate. So the 'jist of this is to make as much of the turn toward the next gate before you get to the fall line, but not to push your tails up the hill and skid, although that may still be a better alternative than having so much pressure after the gate that you skid out of your line - some WC racers are doing it intentionally now - Bode can probably take some of the credit for this, because they have realized that a straighter line is faster than washing out below the gate or than skiing too round and slow of a purely carved line. If you gotta scrub speed, do it before the fall line, not after.

(I'm done now. You may now return to debating which ski to pressure)
post #82 of 89
World Cup snow is not ice, though. It is generally blown much denser to promote a hard surface, but it is not ice like we see here in the East. Maine, in his case. If you have sharp edges and you put them into World Cup snow, they will hold and you can put all of your weight and pressure on the downhill ski with no worries. Ground ice, however, is a different story. Often times the edge cannot effectively support the body's weight and so you must split the pressure to accomodate.
In the provided slide you can see the skier's edges cutting into the snow without trouble. That's not ice.
post #83 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rv3 View Post
World Cup snow is not ice, though. It is generally blown much denser to promote a hard surface, but it is not ice like we see here in the East. Maine, in his case. .
I assume you've skied the stuff. I was a college racer in Maine. I also skied the World Cup Final GS course a few years ago. I was blown away by just how ungrippable the surface was, harder to get and edge into than anything I'd seen in Maine.
post #84 of 89
I have not actually skied it, in all honesty. You may know far better I. Looking at that picture, though, the skis are clearly gripping the snow. It's not ungrippable like ground ice.
post #85 of 89
WC race tracks are prepared with water injection. No regular pists are prepared that way so if you are not a fortunate FIS or WC racer chanses are you will not have skied on that kind of snow. Its very expensive for teams to have slopes like that prepared for them to practise on.
post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rv3 View Post
I have not actually skied it, in all honesty. You may know far better than I. Looking at that picture, though, the skis are clearly gripping the snow. It's not ungrippable like ground ice.
I have only been on it once, but we're probably both right. Sometimes they are on snow which lookes like nice dense "styrofoam texture". The stuff I skied however, was from another planet.
post #87 of 89
On real ice ie: over 1/2 inch of freezing rain I tend to keep the edge angles low and I am more two footed with slightly larger than normal turns. I want little if any skidding on that stuff.
post #88 of 89
In the case of the original poster, he's racing on man-made, skied off snow. It's not quite clear ice like you'd get from rain or warm tems, but it's also not groomed. It's also not WC prepped, water injected. We generally call this stuff he is racing on "porceline" (I probably spelled that wrong), like the stuff they make heavy dishes out of. It has some texture, but is very firm and with too much lateral pressure, you'll slide sideways on the stuff. The average day skier calls this stuff impossible ice and can't do anything but slide down the fall line on it. Where it gets packed really well and the groomer can't till it up, it does eventually turn to clear surface ice.
post #89 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
The day before the mountain got a day of rain which froze overnight, leaving a dense layer of frozen home-made.
Except that it kind of is from rain...
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