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What about my new boots is causing me to snowplow??

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
Ok. So I got new boots and had them fitted and canted and all that good expensive stuff. They still need some grinding or punching as they are quite small and are pretty much excruciating right now.

Anyway, a strange effect of the new boots is that they make my skis want to run in a snow plow. It's not subtle either, it was quite obvious to the untrained watchful eye of my wife. This obviously make the downhill ski engage REALLY rapidly but the uphill ski kind of rides into the other skis tip. Trying to straightline anything takes constant focus to keep the tips apart. After a few runs I kind of get used to opening my uphill foot to get that ski to track properly but it never feels natural, especially when running flat. Obviously this is not how I want to ski all of the time.

It seems counterintuitive but I'm wondering if the canting I had done could be causing this. or what makes more intuitive sense is that perhaps my foot sits kind of duckfooted in the boot. Maybe they're set up perfectly and I just need to deprogram years of compensatory movements in my skiing.

Any boot gurus have any thoughts?
post #2 of 41
I'm no boot guru by any stretch, but my first guess is the canting isn't what you are use to...Not saying it's wrong/right. Just different.

Another possibility is maybe the ramp angle and or forward lean is more aggressive than you are use to, or maybe the pain of breakin/fitting is causing you to re-direct foot pressure in an unusual way.

How about the sole length...Is it different than what the binding were setup for? Maybe you are more forward on the ski's?

Anyways...These are just my two-cents worth and before I start getting flamed by people who are really in the know, please refer to my opening disclaimer/statement.
post #3 of 41
What boots?
post #4 of 41
Thread Starter 
Krypton Pro.

memosteve, it's not the size or the lean causing it, that much I can tell.

The only things I could think of that it might be are the canting that was done (current boots aren't canted and they don't do this), if my foot sits duckfooted (which it kind of feels like it does, not sure though) or if perhaps the way the thermaflex liner wraps my lower leg causes some kind of twisting action. Might I have been standing duckfooted when the liner was baked?

My money is on the canting. The reason I say this is because the effect is less pronounced when I run with an uncomfortably (to ski) wide stance. With that wide stance my legs take a more triangular stance to the ground and that was the way the boots were canted. I can't get my legs wide enough to make it go away completely without skiing like a tard though.
post #5 of 41
I highly doubt that the thermal process is causing the problem to the point you are experiencing. The molding process in stock thermal liners aren't sensitive/precise enough to cause major changes in on hill ski attitude if not totally molded correctly...More likely to cause pain issues than radically change ski attitude.

I still think the likely culprit is the canting as you mentioned a great clue...Your old boots were never canted/balanced.

Even though I've got serious knocked knees, I've never been corrected before. I did opt to have this done on my last pair of boots and I really struggled with it. I didn't experience the wedgies like you are, but I had serious problems with catching inside edges especially when running flat.

I talked with my bootfitter about this and he stated that although it was correct, my body has adapted to my skiing through so many years of skiing uncorrected. He stated that I would get use to the proper correction, but it would take time and MIGHT benefit me in the long run with better technique, etc...

I opted to go back to what I was used to and haven't regretted it since.
post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-EastCoaster View Post
Anyway, a strange effect of the new boots is that they make my skis want to run in a snow plow. It's not subtle either
Um.... sorry to have to break it to you this way, but you've always skied in a snowplow.











(This guy is one of the fastest skiers I know. Since my runs "with" him last all of 15 seconds before he's vanished, I'm entitled to take a few easy shots when I get the chance.)
post #7 of 41
How wide of a stance was used to assess your canting needs?

b
post #8 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
How wide of a stance was used to assess your canting needs?

b
You tell me (6" I think)

Rereading my last post I realized I didn't say something quite right. It meant to convey that in moving to wider stance the ANGLE of my lower legs moves in the DIRECTION I was canted (meaning I was canted inward). Not really sure if I adjusted my skiing wider than the width used to cant or not though....all I know is it wasn't comfortable to ski like that.

Perhaps the cuff canting needs to be adjusted too to bring everything back in line?? Just trying to get some thoughts and a perhaps a bit of a knowledge base before go back for round 2 with you Bud The first thing we need to do is get me some more left big toe space :

As a sidenote I pretty much fixed my long leg/short leg issue in my other boots (from an idea got while you were working on me) and I don't think I've ever skied better or with less fatigue.
post #9 of 41

Good thread

I am very interested to see how this plays out.
Lets keep the updates going to a positive conclusion.

I ski on occasion with X-eastcoaster.
He is fit and an aggressive skier. He is one of the better skiers on any hill where he skis. He lives in a resort area and skis allot of days each year.
We are not dealing with a few day a year Texan.

Last year he skied well but in constant foot pain I saw wounds on his legs and feet that would have kept me in the bar.

This year he took my and many others advice and has gone to the most highly recommended ($$$$) boot fitter in his area and on this site.

I believe his goal is to continue to improve his skiing (Tough to do) at his level.
And most important to not have bleeding wounds on his feet and ankles throughout the year.

I thought he would have been back to Buds shop a couple of times by now?

Stay with it and let us know how the experience goes for you.
post #10 of 41
Thread Starter 
I had wounds on my feet and legs??

Could you be referring to that nasty sweat/wool/ski boots in June induced eczema I had down at Mammoth? That wasn't due to my boot fit.

In fact I doctored my old boots prior to last weekend and fixed my lopsided issue and tightened the fit a bit and all of the sudden they're pretty darn awesome. I really had it dialed in Sunday and I'm quite certain I've never skied better


So basically I have some time to work on the kryptons. I will be happy to update my progress though.
post #11 of 41
I don't know dude. Seems like the topic of conversation was always what the best line was to ski, and that your feet hurt.

And those were open sores on your ankles, along with blisters / calusus on your heels and big toe.

Or did I just imagine all that?

Keeping in mind that I buckle my boots in the morning and keep them that way untill I take them off at night. You are always unbuckling and rebuckling on every run (That the only reason I stay in front of you)
post #12 of 41
Coaster,

I will check your paperwork but can tell you that 5 or 6" is probably accurate. It is very common when some one is moved from an overcanted position to feel like your skis are dull or you have alot of base bevel. This is because it takes a bit for your motor memory to reprogram. We just took away the edge engagement you were used to but with a little time you will come to appreciate your new angles and parallel leg shafts. Trust me, you just need to give it a couple days to change your movement patterns a bit. If you feel we took too much I will be happy to reevaluate your stance and make any adjustment you would like. Perhaps we could get together for a ski date at a local area to take a look and do some on hill evaluation.

Stop by and we'll fix the big toe pronto!

b
post #13 of 41
This is one of the funniest thread titles I've ever seen.
post #14 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
This is one of the funniest thread titles I've ever seen.
That was the idea :

Bud, I was pretty sure if it was the canting causing this that it is probably a muscle memory issue type thing. Thinking about it now I think I do ski with a fairly narrow stance though (I ski about 1% on-piste and 99% off if that matters). The first day I seemed to adjust myself to the new boots after a run or two but the second day I couldn't seem to stop the snowplow action. The cnating does seem to make it easy to initiate a turn...but right now it almost feels too easy...I'm probably just used to muscling my skis though. What's causing me to wonder the most though is how good my old (uncanted) boots felt after fixing my long/short leg problem - again could just be a muscle memory thing. Might that lopsidedness affect the canting angles so when my right foot is raised to compensate I need different angles? (Thinking out loud)

No worries though...we'll get this dialed in..I know it's a process. This thread is all about my crazy never been boot-fitted brain during this process
post #15 of 41
X-EC, take Bud up on that on-snow day... It will give him so much more to use in understanding and making decisions. Plus, skiing with Bud is always a good time!
post #16 of 41
Get that on-snow assessment: "For many skiers, the equipment configuration that produces more optimal alignment is different than that suggested by the static assessment. In fact, the dynamic solution can even be opposite than expected from the static measurements." (This is from a technical paper presented to the Second International Congress of Skiing & Science, http://www.harbskisystems.com/icsshsas.htm)

Can those boots be exchanged? Some ski shops do that even for boots that have been skied in if the boots are not right for that skier. People I trust prefer the skiing characteristics of the Dalbello Proton over their Krypton.


Ken
post #17 of 41
SSG, given that our own Bud Heishman is working with him, I'm sure that they'll get tuned in just right.
post #18 of 41
Thanks steve for the cudos!

I know coasters boot were shell fit pretty tight so having to do a little work was in the cards from the beginning. I hope coaster and I can ski together to look at what is going on with the canting. I can usually ski on a midweek morning pretty easily?...

We formed the intuition liners that came with the boot and I am sure that it would be next to impossible for them to form in a duck footed position though some boots as you know deliberately do place the foot in a duck footed position.

As for the leg length difference, I have checked multiple skiers with and without lifts under one boot to compare and have not found a difference in the canting needs.

if it would work for you?...

b
post #19 of 41
Being a woman in the Krypton Storm, I can tell you I had a similar problem.
I originally had my intuition liners thermo fit with no toe caps so that I'd have an extra snug fit.
After skiing in them about 5 days, I headed to Stowe. It seemed that I was struggling with things that should have been easy for me.
I went to Benny(Bootfitter) while I was at ESA Stowe, and had my liners reheated and fit with the neopreen toe caps to make a tad more room for my toes.

Turns out cramped toe area was causing my legs to tense up.
Amazing how a little extra toe room made for a better stance, easier edge to edge, and less snowplow.
But hey, that may have just been me.


Feet are a personal thing and your comfort is what its all about.
I love my Krypton Storm Id's!
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick View Post
I went to Benny(Bootfitter) while I was at ESA Stowe, and had my liners reheated and fit with the neopreen toe caps to make a tad more room for my toes.

Turns out cramped toe area was causing my legs to tense up.
Amazing how a little extra toe room made for a better stance, easier edge to edge, and less snowplow.
But hey, that may have just been me.
I knew you'd end up getting these re-done with the toe caps. It really does make a HUGE difference. Glad to hear you're nice 'n comfy now.
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-EastCoaster View Post
I had wounds on my feet and legs??

Could you be referring to that nasty sweat/wool/ski boots in June induced eczema I had down at Mammoth? That wasn't due to my boot fit.

In fact I doctored my old boots prior to last weekend and fixed my lopsided issue and tightened the fit a bit and all of the sudden they're pretty darn awesome. I really had it dialed in Sunday and I'm quite certain I've never skied better


So basically I have some time to work on the kryptons. I will be happy to update my progress though.
Got some used boots for sale?!!! Those old ones rip, and sound soooo attractive.:
post #22 of 41
Speaking from experience I can say when you finally do get a good fit that puts you in allignment you have to adjust to the new stance - especially if you had severe issues like I did. You are so used to doing things subconsciously to compensate for the issues that when they dissapear it takes some time and relaxing to really stop performing those subconscious adjustments. These compensations for me included things like tensing muscles in the legs and feet, rotating, leaning upper body etc..At first after I got aligned I found I countinued doing these things and bad things happened..I would try to go into a wedge as you described or worse catch an edge when turning. What helped me was taking it slow the first day and just relaxing. After a day or two I was used to the good alignment and not doing those things I always have done.
post #23 of 41
Thread Starter 
Bumping back to page 1

Being that I'm extremely busy right now I won't have time to get back to Bud until next week - and I can't really ski the new boots until I get more left big toe room so that's out. I did get out a little bit this weekend in my old boots and really tried to analyze what was going on. For snow I got it all - some heavy wind buffed pow at Kirkwood on Friday, some rained on & refrozen unskiable snow at squaw on Sunday and some drier groomed and skier packed at Rose.

This is what I noticed:

- I’m most comfortable skiing with a narrow stance. My tib/fibs are shaped like this () so my ankles like to be almost touching in everything I do (walking, running and yes skiing).

- I also seem to ski slightly pigeon toed when straightrunning on groomers with my old boots AND my feet seem to sit ever so slightly more duckfooted in the Kryptons. Makes me think that perhaps the snowplow action is merely exacerbated by the hightened responsiveness and the fit differences of the new boots and is not necessarily caused by the canting…maybe…could also be the canting exacerbating the issue (keep reading).

- I have a much lower stance in deep snow and when I stand in a lower crouch my feet sit flatter & more duckfooted. This essentially reverses the snowplow action and actually takes it the other way to make it harder for the downhill ski to engage. I'm thinking the new boots with the canting may work just fine in deep snow.

- Ok, as I mentioned above my tib/fibs are shaped like this () so when I walk my feet almost touch AND I definitely weight the outer sides of my feet. This is the exact opposite of the direction I was canted. Essentially the canting process seemed to take this (), a narrow stance with a slight outward cant to my feet and forced my feet wider and gave me a little bit of an inward cant. If this is the case perhaps the slight snowplow of my non-canted boots and massive snowplow action of my canted boots tells me I need my feet canted the opposite direction they were (again, just thinking out loud not saying anything done was “right” or “wrong”) and I’m fairly certain my cuffs need to be canted out to mimic the bottom half of my tib/fibs (which I can do no problem).

Not really sure what it all means for my skiing and what exactly to do with these boots because intuitively it seems like whatever we do would fix one type of skiing but would hurt another. I will say that I definitely use a more narrow stance then I was canted with and for the kind of skiing I do the narrow stance seems to facilitates edge-to-edge quickness and turn shape variability that I use in the terrain and snow conditions I frequent . So I don't think I want to mess with that and force a wider groomer/racer type stance - so if the canting was overdone based on a too wide stance perhaps we can back some of it out : I like the responsiveness of the Kryptons and I seem to turn really, really effortlessely in them so I want to make this work because I think if we can pull it off it I think it will do wonders for my skiing.

I think for my next steps this what I want to do - probably no surprises here but boot people let me know if I'm missing something:
1) Get some length in the shell for my left big toe
2) Rebake the liners and use thicker toe caps (the toe box height on both sides seems really low and squeezes my toes into frozen submission).
3) Get the higher shim put on my right boot to fix my lopsided leg length (Bud was out of those when I was there).
4) Play with my cuff canting and forward lean (ramp angle is tough since my bindings are all different) and ski a ton and feel it out.
5) Ski with Bud
post #24 of 41
I think you have 4 and 5 in the wrong order, but other than that, right on!
post #25 of 41
Thread Starter 
Update:

I went back to see Bud last night and had my left big toe area ground a bit and had the higher shims put underneath my right boot to even me out.

So I took them to the hill this morning and actually got to ski them in relative comfort (it was cold though and these boots are tight so my feet turned into cement blocks after an hour or so). UNfortunately I'm still skiing in a pronounced snow plow and it's really tough to correct. The first run I jumped into some pow and went to turn but my uphill ski didn't turn and almost sent me straightlining into some trees. I DO NOT THINK IT's THE CANTING THOUGH.

I seem to constantly pressure my big toes and the inside ball of each foot in a very pronounced way and with the responsiveness of these boots it seems to be pushing on the insides of the tips causing the skis to always want to be engaged. When I'm straightrunning I seem to take on a pronounced a-frame with some pigeon toe action kind of like this:
\ ``/
/_ _\

When I pulled up on my toes or tried to center my pressure between the front of my feet and my heels or just ride the back seat the problem seems to fix itself but I was getting some serious leg burn trying to maintain this. My old boots are more volumous in the foot and think I do much of my skiing using the cuffs and with the lack of responsiveness in the foot I just never noticed this was happening. The new boots do less with the cuff and much more with the feet.

Not sure what may be causing this and how to fix it. I am now wondering if I either have too much or not enough forward lean or ramp. I can see if I now had less forward lean/ramp my butt would be back and I would compensate by leaning over and when I stand like that I immediately go a-frame/pigeon toe and pressure my big toes....or maybe I have too much ramp/lean and it's forcing me onto my toes. I don't know. It just seems very hard to pressure my outer edges..it's like my feet just naturally want to roll forward and in and my uphill leg just gets in the way.

Anyway, next steps...get more lift on my right side (it wasn't enough), play with the fwd lean, maybe try some heel & toe shims to see if I need to tweak the ramp. I'm wondering if perhaps these just aren't the boots for me :
post #26 of 41
Hopefully we can ski together on Sunday?!

Funny thing is when we looked at Coaster's alignment in his old Nordicas he was UNDERcanted and the initial assessment in his new Dalbellos he was overcanted. So he is actually on a stronger edge now than before!

I will have some cant shims and bontex shims with me on Sunday to experiment. I am looking forward to seeing what is happening on snow.

Hang in there Coaster!....
b
post #27 of 41
You are fortunate to be getting the attention that you are getting for your boot problem. I just bought a pair of Krypton Pros and am noticing similar problems causing a lack of confidence in my skiing. The boots are comfortable on my feet and the fit is perfect; I just don't know why I feel so awkward and seem to have difficulty carving that I didn't have in my old Langes. I seem to have difficulty getting forward, too. I am just hoping the awkwardness goes away with more ski days.
post #28 of 41
Thread Starter 
I guess I'll just have to go to Rose tomorrow

I know it's best to see first hand but no thoughts/ideas from any other boot knowledable folks?

edit: one more idea perhaps worth thinking about. I have the soft tongue with no shell stiffeners in (so as soft as this boot can get) and it's definitely too soft for my liking...could over flexing the boot cause anything like what I'm experiencing? I guess there is only one way to find out.

Bud any particular type of ski you would like to see me on?
post #29 of 41
X-EastCoaster- I have encountered your type of alignment needs many times and solutions can sometimes seem backwards but correct for the skier need.
I would have your footbed checked first for any forefoot "varus" or "valgus"
issues. I would bet you'll find that the more you accomidate for the forefoot in terms of shimming at the forefoot/footbed area, you'll be more comfortable/aligned. Also, if you test movement at the hip joint,(while trying to move your knees laterally and medially and your feet placed at a comfortable "skier" distance apart), you'll probably find you are stiffer. (or less range of motion) I think you may need to be "accomidated" at the canting level instead of "corrected". Any questions, get in touch with me!
post #30 of 41
I am actually intrigued as to the solution here. I don't have the auto-snowplow problem, but I believe I have a similar tib/fib shape. as I fit the description of fairly knocked knees but with my weight always on the outside of me heel/ forefoot area and the fact I also walk, run, and jump in a narrow stance. I can never seem to get the boot cuff alignment to feel dialed in on my nordica beasts either.
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