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Modern SL Technique, Inside Ski Tip Lift (WC video) - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Interesting Head/Sherman.

I was going to point to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGQ9egMTW9s

and say that a similar appearing but different move is often done on steep course sections when it is impossible to carve the inside ski, so it is 'swung around' the gate in the air. What he's doing in the flats could be a vestige of practicing such a move, although it does appear that he may be using it to 'work the skis' and get a little more juice out of the turn, hard to tell from the video.

As has been mentioned, the other purpose of lifting the ski is the instant edge release, I've used it as a turn initiation drill where you lift (or actively unweight) the 'uphill/inside' ski during the transition, allowing instant roll-over to the new edge to engage as the new 'downhill/outside' ski for the next turn quickly. You can actually see Chenal do it on-course in this video (ignore the first turn):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZASjNr4ry8
post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
what i thought as i watched i that he is getting 100% OF HIS WEIGHT ON HIS OUTSIDE SKI VERY EARKY IN THE TURN AND THEN PROGRESSIVELY ADDDING INSIDE SKI AS IT REENGAGES WITH THE SNOW IN THE BELLY OF THE TURN.
Agree w/you. Article on this here: http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/parallel_shins.htm

And here an article (in Russian but you can follow the pics) on the weighting of the skis throughout the turn, with a diagram of different weightings, with example three being the best one: http://youcanski.com/ru/trenerskaya/vnutrenia_noga.htm
post #33 of 45
boardboy, example 3 is the tracks left by an exercise -- it is not the "right" way to ski. They are left when trying to learn how to use the inside ski.
post #34 of 45
If you go to Ron Lemaster's site and look into his new photo section you will see several racers including Liegity making the same moves, in Liegity's photomontage you will see the classic avelement being demonstated by him in the transition. What a powerhouse skier, us normal people can only dream of doing there moves.
post #35 of 45
Sherman
I had forgotten that move was called "avalement". Our coaches taught us to ski like that years ago, and then with the advent of shaped skis we got criticised for it. Frankly, it is more stylish 'looking' than the (fast) two footed muscling down the course of a Benny Reich.
post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
boardboy, example 3 is the tracks left by an exercise -- it is not the "right" way to ski. They are left when trying to learn how to use the inside ski.
Never said it was the "right" way to ski. And, yes, it can be an exercise. However, as Greg explains, ideally both skis are always on the snow, but the emphasis in weighting is indicated by the lines or lack of them in example three.
post #37 of 45
Put the page through the alta vista translator. He clearly states it is an exercise.
post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Put the page through the alta vista translator. He clearly states it is an exercise.
What's your point?
post #39 of 45
The point is that there will always be some weight on the inside ski, even at turn initiation, like in track 2. Track 3 shows zero weight above the fall-line, which is simply wrong.

Gurshman himself goes through great lengths describing outside/inside ski weight distribution, and it is never 100%-0% at the points shown by track 3. At the point in which track 3 starts, the weight distribution in a realistic turn ought to be 70/30 or even 60/40.

Track 3 is not "the best one" as you said. Track 2 is a far better example.

He first identifies the weight distribution that current teaching methods use to getting to track 2, ( RRX of track 1 ). Then he shows what the weight distribution in a real turn is like (eg. track 2). Then he suggests an exercise to learn how to create those tracks, which leaves tracks similar to track 3. Nothing at all like railroad tracks.

His paper clearly highlights the deficiencies in using rail road tracks to teach the role of the inside ski in arc-to-arc skiing.
post #40 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The point is that there will always be some weight on the inside ski, even at turn initiation, like in track 2. Track 3 shows zero weight above the fall-line, which is simply wrong.

Gurshman himself goes through great lengths describing outside/inside ski weight distribution, and it is never 100%-0% at the points shown by track 3. At the point in which track 3 starts, the weight distribution in a realistic turn ought to be 70/30 or even 60/40.

Track 3 is not "the best one" as you said. Track 2 is a far better example.

He first identifies the weight distribution that current teaching methods use to getting to track 2, ( RRX of track 1 ). Then he shows what the weight distribution in a real turn is like (eg. track 2). Then he suggests an exercise to learn how to create those tracks, which leaves tracks similar to track 3. Nothing at all like railroad tracks.

His paper clearly highlights the deficiencies in using rail road tracks to teach the role of the inside ski in arc-to-arc skiing.
Hey, so I misspoke. My Russian is rusty since I left MI6. Your analysis is correct. Glad to see someone studying what GG has to say since he's pretty up on what's going on out there.

Gurshman does, though, say: "Usually the turn begins above the fall line of the slope with almost 90% of pressure on external ski."

He also goes on to say that:

If we attentively study some WC leaders' techniques, it is possible to note that they slightly raise the inside ski at the entrance of the turn. It goes without saying, that in this case the athletes enter the turn with the relationship of pressure of 100% on the external to zero on inside ski. This substantially helps to avoid obstruction to the inside ski in the first phase of the turn. A similar technique is characteristic of athletes of the older generation of such as, for example, Eberharter, Ammodt and Maier. From childhood of maturity they were taught to raise their inside ski & they continue to use this method in combination with the new skis. However, younger athletes, who mastered contemporary technology at the junior level, attempt to hold both skis in the fixed contact with the snow, which, with other conditions being equal, leads to the smoother cutting of arcs and speed. Specifically, this technique should be taught to juniors, but we shouldn't disregard the operating techniques of experienced athletes.

So, example three is not, as you say, "Example 3 is the tracks left by an exercise -- it is not the "right" way to ski. They are left when trying to learn how to use the inside ski." They are tracks left by some well known winners on the WC.

Anyway, Merry Christmas.
post #41 of 45
No!

The passage that you quote indicates that the contemporary skiers keep their skis in contact with the snow. They NEVER have 100-0 like track 3, more like track 1. The older good ones ski like track 2 - track 3 has too huge a disconnect.

Track 2 is the target.

Track 1 is normal RRX instruction. Track 3 is instruction that realizes there is different weightings of inside and outside ski. Track 3 takes you to track 2, but track 1 cannot.

Merry Christmas to you too!

With luck, we'll get some freak snow here. I've been skiing ONCE this year.
post #42 of 45
Kostelic, in some turns lifting inside ski. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biMDunnxdto

Merry Christmas!

Turns are a form of hymn, sing into the New Year!
post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
No!

The passage that you quote indicates that the contemporary skiers keep their skis in contact with the snow. They NEVER have 100-0 like track 3, more like track 1. The older good ones ski like track 2 - track 3 has too huge a disconnect.

Track 2 is the target.

Track 1 is normal RRX instruction. Track 3 is instruction that realizes there is different weightings of inside and outside ski. Track 3 takes you to track 2, but track 1 cannot.

Merry Christmas to you too!

With luck, we'll get some freak snow here. I've been skiing ONCE this year.
I re-read Greg's stuff and your emphasis is the correct one.

Have a great season!
post #44 of 45

Larsson technique

Wow, that's different and ceraintly the opposite of Bode Miller. What are the pro's and con's of Larson's technique?

Tahoedreamer
post #45 of 45
I watched that race on WCSN.com. The commentators were talking about how "flat" the course was. It's not surprising that he was "juicing" the skis out of the turns like that. I've been watching WC video frame by frame for many years. This is not new, maybe exagerated for shaped skis, but not new. Lots of kids would tip over backwards when they first went to short slalom skis. There was an article by Billy Kidd in a 1969 issue of Ski Magazine describing fore and aft leverage like that. All the top racers do it to some degree or another. I tell my kids "the front of the ski is the steering wheel, the back is the gas". "Turn and get your direction then hit the gas".
Racers don't try to ski perfectly. They try to get as much as they can out of the skis and hang on to make the gates. The basic movements haven't changed much, just the range of movement of the different parts.
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