EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Is Salomon Cheapening Their Toepiece?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Is Salomon Cheapening Their Toepiece?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I was looking for a new set of bindings for my extremely reasonably priced Scott Aztec Pros that I picked up at overstock a few weeks ago, and had my first chance to look at the new Salomon Z12 ti in person at one of my local Sports Authority stores today. My first reaction was, where did the spheric afd go? My second reactions was, gee that looks a lot like the toe on the old 711, except cheaper, very plastic looking. Has anybody else noticed this? Is the new toe actually as good as the old toe?

When I asked the tech about it he said that basically it was the same toe in the old 711 and the new Z12, except the springs were a little heavier in the Z12. Needless to say this did not inspire confidence, especially since I have heard that Atomic has taken over Salomon and that Salomon will be building Atomic's bindings going forward. Anybody have any further info? What's the rationale here? I find this trend toward economy extremely alarming, since it looks like the heel in Rossi Axial/Look Pivot design has also been cheapend in the last few years. Is it time to start stocking up on the better, older bindings before they all dissapear?
post #2 of 23
I agree with you. This new toe leaves me less than excited. Gimme an old Driver 900 or 912, even a 977 or 997 and I am happy. I don't need green springs or a 16 / 20 din metal housing either.
post #3 of 23
I had really expected to see Atomic bindings on Salomon skis this year. Atomic spent a fortune developing the Neox, and undoubtedly has newer machinery than what Salomon is using to manufacture their bindings. The whole situation just seems odd to me. Hopefully within a few seasons we will see a positive effect as a result of the Amersport take-over. Adidas didn't do anything to help Salomon and tried to run to company purely based on marketing hype... It didn't get them anywhere, and unfortunately they seem to be lowering the quality of their products year after year. I still keep a good supply of 914 and 912 bindings laying around just in case. IMO that design (since the 977) is one of the best out there. The old 711 toe is a pre-release nightmare...

Later

GREG
post #4 of 23
916's are very very popular around here. all metal, not incredibly heavy, and very solidly built plus easy to find wide brakes for.
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
I was looking for a new set of bindings for my extremely reasonably priced Scott Aztec Pros that I picked up at overstock a few weeks ago, and had my first chance to look at the new Salomon Z12 ti in person at one of my local Sports Authority stores today. My first reaction was, where did the spheric afd go? My second reactions was, gee that looks a lot like the toe on the old 711, except cheaper, very plastic looking. Has anybody else noticed this? Is the new toe actually as good as the old toe?

When I asked the tech about it he said that basically it was the same toe in the old 711 and the new Z12, except the springs were a little heavier in the Z12. Needless to say this did not inspire confidence, especially since I have heard that Atomic has taken over Salomon and that Salomon will be building Atomic's bindings going forward. Anybody have any further info? What's the rationale here? I find this trend toward economy extremely alarming, since it looks like the heel in Rossi Axial/Look Pivot design has also been cheapend in the last few years. Is it time to start stocking up on the better, older bindings before they all dissapear?
I have a set of scrambler 8's and also bought my daughter some salomon bindings last year. I have checked out the new Xwing skis and noticed that the bindings did'nt look like they are of the same quality as the ones I bought last year. The skis I looked at were also at the Sports Authority and I also looked at some at the local ski shop. None of the ones I saw were really high end models so I dont know if their higher end skis have nicer bindings.
post #6 of 23
The new Z12 binding uses a variant of the old Quadrax toe piece. It is made of carbon reinforced plastic which is why it looks "cheap", and it's possible it might be cheaper to manufacture. However, initial tests indicate it is stiffer than the 912ti overall and it is certainly much lighter.

The real question is - is it durable? At least as durable as the 912, which I know isn't in the same league as the 916. Anyone have any data on that?
post #7 of 23
I've already seen a number of people do some reasonably agressive skiing on Z10's and Z12's, so they can't be all that bad. I still wouldn't buy a pair though, I'd probably break them or wear them out in about 10 days. I wouldn't trust them set to 12 din like I would a 957 composite or 997 carbon. I still remember a friend wearing out a set of quadrax's in like 15 days in 1994.
post #8 of 23
How does one wear out a binding in 15 days?
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
How does one wear out a binding in 15 days?
Drive to the mountain with your skis on the roof.
post #10 of 23
Back on subject, yes, I immediately thought the Z12 toe was basically the same design as the 700 series. Hardly a quantum leap in technology.

Like Phil, I'll be sticking with 977s, 997s, and 900s for the immediate future.
post #11 of 23
Salomon dumped the toe piece from the 810/912 design because of inherent flawes. The adjustable wings tended to self adjust and reduce boot contact and, they determined that the spherical AFD worked great when new but wor out quickly. That caused improper releases. Now, that being said, Salomon made a great binding for years. The Z series toe piece was made to be very duarable, very lightweight. There is talk within Salomon of changing the 914 next year. They alreadt removed the spherical AFD from the 914 and are thinking of replacing the toe piece as well
post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skierhj View Post
Salomon dumped the toe piece from the 810/912 design because of inherent flawes. The adjustable wings tended to self adjust and reduce boot contact and, they determined that the spherical AFD worked great when new but wor out quickly. That caused improper releases. Now, that being said, Salomon made a great binding for years. The Z series toe piece was made to be very duarable, very lightweight. There is talk within Salomon of changing the 914 next year. They alreadt removed the spherical AFD from the 914 and are thinking of replacing the toe piece as well
But if you get a release check on a regular basis and maintain your gear, as you should be, I don't see why these are "inherent flawes". I have a spherical AFD that is several years old and still works well. My guess is that you would have to be logging up to 80 ski days a year on a single pair of bindings and dragging them through the gunk before you would begin to see an issue with that design, and even then regular maintainence and cleaning should address any problems here.

If they are saying that new toe is safer then why shouldn't we all be on the 711 rather than the Z12? They sure as heck look like the same binding, right down to the heal piece. I expect they will get rid of the 711 for just this reason, since why would you spend the extra bucks for what is essentially the same binding? Anybody know if they went to the Quadrax toe on the FIS racing binding? Or are they sticking with an older design, just like Rossi did with the FKS? Still think that these, and the older Looks, with the true turntable heels were the best bindings ever. Maybe we should check if these are off patent, and start making them ourselves in China.

Any Salomon reps/techs out there with additional insight into what is going on here?
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
But if you get a release check on a regular basis and maintain your gear, as you should be, I don't see why these are "inherent flawes". I have a spherical AFD that is several years old and still works well. My guess is that you would have to be logging up to 80 ski days a year on a single pair of bindings and dragging them through the gunk before you would begin to see an issue with that design, and even then regular maintainence and cleaning should address any problems here.

If they are saying that new toe is safer then why shouldn't we all be on the 711 rather than the Z12? They sure as heck look like the same binding, right down to the heal piece. I expect they will get rid of the 711 for just this reason, since why would you spend the extra bucks for what is essentially the same binding? Anybody know if they went to the Quadrax toe on the FIS racing binding? Or are they sticking with an older design, just like Rossi did with the FKS? Still think that these, and the older Looks, with the true turntable heels were the best bindings ever. Maybe we should check if these are off patent, and start making them ourselves in China.
The spheric AFD sucked donkey balls. I've heard through the rumour mill that the s916/920 design, which is ancient now by ski standards, is due for an overhaul. Rossi will eventually move away from the FKS design, which BTW also has been around since the beginning of time. The new PX based FKS replacement already exists and is used on the World Cup.
post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
The spheric AFD sucked donkey balls. I've heard through the rumour mill that the s916/920 design, which is ancient now by ski standards, is due for an overhaul. Rossi will eventually move away from the FKS design, which BTW also has been around since the beginning of time. The new PX based FKS replacement already exists and is used on the World Cup.
I don't know if I'm in the minority here, but I view the new PX design with suspicion compared to the older designs. I notice that used FKS 120's are selling for $ 125 on eBay, and with bent brakes they are very popular with the jibbing crowd. That design is 30 years old, dating back to the old Look Nevada, and I still don't think anything comes close to the elasticity in the heel travel.

The interesting thing about the Solli's spheric design is that they were putting it on the 711 until last year. So if there are issues is a recall in the works? And I'm still not crazy about the prospect for long term reliability for toe piece on the Z12. Maybe that's the new idea, disposable bindings.

It will be interesting to see what they do with a 916/920 redesign now that they are owned by Atomic. Could this be the convergence of Neox with Salomon?
post #15 of 23
I just picked up some 977 11-17 Din, beefy mofo's.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I just picked up some 977 11-17 Din, beefy mofo's.
Those sound like they're race stock, you should se;ll them to Highway Star, I hear he feels more comfortable skiing with race stock bindings.

Seriously though, I dig 977 Equipes, I have the 6-14s on my Hucksters. :
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
Those sound like they're race stock, you should se;ll them to Highway Star, I hear he feels more comfortable skiing with race stock bindings.

Seriously though, I dig 977 Equipes, I have the 6-14s on my Hucksters. :
Actually, I was talking to HS at the base lodge about them, he talked me into putting them on my Blizzards.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Actually, I was talking to HS at the base lodge about them, he talked me into putting them on my Blizzards.
what do you run your din at, I have mine at 12 and my skis stay on through every sort of huck and hard skiing condition. That din range is intense. For using bindings like that, it probably earned you lots of street cred with the tgr guys.
post #19 of 23
I will ski them on a 12 or so. I am actually thinking about putting a lighter spring in and skiing them on about an 11. I will torque them to make sure they are proper.
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
Those sound like they're race stock, you should se;ll them to Highway Star, I hear he feels more comfortable skiing with race stock bindings.

Seriously though, I dig 977 Equipes, I have the 6-14s on my Hucksters. :
I don't need another pair of bindings right now...let me know if there's anything here you might want, anything marked with a star could be up for sale...

'05 S916 red/black
*997 11-17 flor. yellow
*997 11-17 yellow/silver
957 11-17 black
sold some used s916's this year too.

18 din Look turntables:

*2x Look P18, blue
2x Rossi 180 pro (with the geze toe), black yellow
Look ZR18 sliver

Non-race bindings:

*P12 Jib
2x 957 composite, black
997 Carbon, black
*2x MRR racing
*M48 Racing


That's about it.....16 pair. Plus a few pairs of M51's, but those suck so bad I can't even call them a ski binding.
post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
How does one wear out a binding in 15 days?
By skiing agressively on a binding that isn't proper for your din range. I can't recall if they were 10 or 12 din quadrax's but he thrashed them super quick and had to buy new bindings.

I bet in 15 to 20 days, I could induce alot of play into a pair of Z12's....I would have to ski them on a 12 setting. 957's composites hold up to that, and hopefully so will the 997 carbons I just got.
post #22 of 23
HS, i am kind of interested in the p18's how much are you looking for?
post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
So I was perusing the Salomon website today and I noticed that all versions of the 914 including the Lab and the FIS racing, have retained the older toe, wouldn't this tend to support the argument that they are cheapening the toe on the standard recreational bindings?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Is Salomon Cheapening Their Toepiece?