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The FIS Brand Wars have begun

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Its still early folks but this year could shape up to be interesting
Here's an early shocker
Downhill Men
Rank Brand Points
1 Head 455.00
2 Fischer 160.00
3 Rossignol 125.00
4 Atomic 125.00
5 Dynastar 110.00
6 Salomon 60.00
7 Nordica 50.00
8 40.00
Downhill Women
Rank Brand Points
1 Rossignol 390.00
2 Atomic 250.00
3 Salomon 155.00
4 Voelkl 130.00
5 Head 100.00
6 Dynastar 100.00

For all brand standing throughout the season keep an eye on this link

World Cup Brand Ranking

You can look at the '06 rankings from the drop down menu at the top of the page (it only goes back to last year).

Go ROSSI!! Who likes HEAD
post #2 of 24
i wish there was a way to figure out points by percentage of skiers
meaning a big brand has 70% of the skiers and gets 30% of the points or something
post #3 of 24
Well, ... let's see... We've established that Bode can win on K2, Fischer, Rossi, Atomic, and Head. Ligety seemed to do pretty well on Volkl, and now seems to be pretty fast on Rossi. Mario Matt skis some pretty good slalom on Salomon or Atomic. Michaela Dormeister is fast on freakin' Blizzard's!!! (is she purposely handicapping herself?) The general consensus in the race world seems to be that Salomon race skis SUCK, yet Anja Paerson seems to do OK on 'em....

I'm just going to throw this out there..... I know it's crazy...

I wonder if it's THE SKIER!!!
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
I wonder if it's THE SKIER!!!
Ironically, many refuse to accept that as an explanation... :
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Well, ... let's see... We've established that Bode can win on K2, Fischer, Rossi, Atomic, and Head. Ligety seemed to do pretty well on Volkl, and now seems to be pretty fast on Rossi. Mario Matt skis some pretty good slalom on Salomon or Atomic. Michaela Dormeister is fast on freakin' Blizzard's!!! (is she purposely handicapping herself?) The general consensus in the race world seems to be that Salomon race skis SUCK, yet Anja Paerson seems to do OK on 'em....

I'm just going to throw this out there..... I know it's crazy...

I wonder if it's THE SKIER!!!
Don't forget the tune. When Bode skiied out in the slalom at the Olympics last year it looked to me like his skis weren't tuned right and he was trying to overcompensate. Since he was on Atomics, and a lot of Austrians won, I will leave you to figure out what was going on. Could this be another grassy knoll?
post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Well kids there's more at play here than if all WC skier's can produce results on 2X4's or which bevel or wax they're running.

Its why the manufacturers are putting X number of racers on their skis, who they pick, what they pay, how many free skis and what level support they are pouring out on the WC, FIS, NorAM, USSA and other circuits. What do they gain? Does the skiing public really give a hoot who holds the crystal globe and what ski they're on? Certainly the gapers and posers with their pants down around their ankles don't give a damn. Apparently, just like HipHoP has ruined what was left of the music[sic] industry, that culture is stealing dollars from each company's race kitty.

Does it matter? If Rossignol or Fischer beats out Atomic this year will we see more of those brands on the hill? If two or three Americans grab globes will we see more "YOUTS" interested in how a board turns rather than skiing switch looking over their shoulders with their bandanna'd face going mach schnell, other skiers be damned?

Yeah, yeah, I know, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, those "Youts" have probably bailed out the ailing Ski Industry, but like HipHop, at what cost? Clearly I'm an old dude who doesn't like the new breed on "MY HILL", I'm not trying to hide that fact. Back to my question or point,,,,

Who cares? Anybody?

But I do like that FIS is keeping the data and presenting it for anyone to see. Even the data that WaxMan asked about is up there one cares to through the bits in Excel or Access. Heck, they may even put it percentages at some point, why not, they've got the data

Rant over :
post #7 of 24
The skiers are usually on boots of the same brand. Their custom made skis and custom made boots for each discipline can be very different from other racers' equipment of the same brand, and different equipment from one race to the next.

I question Bode's slalom boot setup more than I question his slalom skis. When he gets his Head slalom boots dialed-in, he should do better in slalom.

In the past, Head didn't throw big money at the racers like Atomic and some others did. I don't know if Head opened their checkbook, or if the equipment is that much better due to spending the money on R&D instead. I do know that I sure like my Head rec skis (demo Supershapes if you get a chance).


Ken
post #8 of 24
I looked for a chart with Boot results and couldn't find one. Most racers I know are more loyal to their boots than they are to their skis.

I was on my Lange XLRs forever.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Well kids there's more at play here than if all WC skier's can produce results on 2X4's or which bevel or wax they're running.

Its why the manufacturers are putting X number of racers on their skis, who they pick, what they pay, how many free skis and what level support they are pouring out on the WC, FIS, NorAM, USSA and other circuits. What do they gain? Does the skiing public really give a hoot who holds the crystal globe and what ski they're on? Certainly the gapers and posers with their pants down around their ankles don't give a damn. Apparently, just like HipHoP has ruined what was left of the music[sic] industry, that culture is stealing dollars from each company's race kitty.

Does it matter? If Rossignol or Fischer beats out Atomic this year will we see more of those brands on the hill? If two or three Americans grab globes will we see more "YOUTS" interested in how a board turns rather than skiing switch looking over their shoulders with their bandanna'd face going mach schnell, other skiers be damned?

Yeah, yeah, I know, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, those "Youts" have probably bailed out the ailing Ski Industry, but like HipHop, at what cost? Clearly I'm an old dude who doesn't like the new breed on "MY HILL", I'm not trying to hide that fact. Back to my question or point,,,,

Who cares? Anybody?

But I do like that FIS is keeping the data and presenting it for anyone to see. Even the data that WaxMan asked about is up there one cares to through the bits in Excel or Access. Heck, they may even put it percentages at some point, why not, they've got the data

Rant over :
Huh...

Am I the only one who doesn't "get" this post, and its relevance to the original ? You say "who cares?" But obviously you have some degree of interest or you wouldn't have started this thread.

Gary, what do YOU think the relationship is to sponsorship dollars spent vs. increased revenue because "X" racer is on a certain brand?
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Huh...

Am I the only one who doesn't "get" this post, and its relevance to the original ? You say "who cares?" But obviously you have some degree of interest or you wouldn't have started this thread.

Gary, what do YOU think the relationship is to sponsorship dollars spent vs. increased revenue because "X" racer is on a certain brand?
Don't know, that's why I asked. All I know is that dollars for certain "budgets" are being cut. My question, Jamie, not my lament, was, hmmm, let's see, hmmm, a bit rhetorical and perhaps a tad sardonic. I care, always have, that's why I pour money into supporting recreational racing or bother to write about and promote recreational racing. That was kinda of my point. And seeing dollars being pulled away from racing is a sad state of affairs, IMHO. Sorry you didn't get my attempt at irony and humor, besides, I've never been particularly concerned with my POV's being "gotten" or not

BTW, you kicked my A$$ in the NASTAR battles. I bow to you (over at NASTAR) I believe I am losing the battle with age and infirmity.
post #11 of 24
I am in good shape, only Head and Atomic in my rack.

Guys, let's not forget the importance of brands and ski racing in Europe.

Gary, how 'bout we change it to no one cares in the USA. But in Europe, I betcha, who wins on what influences what the average skier buys!
post #12 of 24
I really do think there's a correllation between World Cup race results and overall ski sales.

Atomic has been the racing king for years and years, and I see all kinds of Atomic race skis on my hill (on these days when it hasn't snowed for awhile, anyway). I'm still convinced that Killy sold many skis for Dynamic, Stenmark sold lots of Elans, Tomba sold boatloads of skis for Rossi, Phil and Steve basically made K2, and Hermann (and Bode) have made millions of dollars for Atomic.

I'm finding a very interesting development in my little microcosm of the skiing world. I've been a very big fan of Head skis for about five years now. I'm now also the Jackson Hole mountain rep for them. Just in the last two weeks, I've had LOTS of people asking me about various Head models. They almost invariably mention Bode's success. In years past, if somebody even asked me about Heads, it was usually with a kind of curiousity like "you mean Head is still making skis? I didn't know that."

This year, several of those folks have already bought Head skis. SuperShapes, iM82's and 88's, and Sweet Fat Thangs. That's a really big change just from last year. There's a buzz about Head skis, and I think it's almost completely a function of Bode's racing success. (That and the fact that he's turning into a near-ideal sponsored athlete in that he's mentioning his skis and the company in every interview.)

So, I think that racing success still sells skis.

Just my opinion, of course.
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I am in good shape, only Head and Atomic in my rack.

Guys, let's not foget the importance of brands and ski racing in Europe.

Gary, how 'bout we change it to no one cares in the USA. But in Europe, I betcha, who wins on what influences what the average skier buys!
AM, I'm sure your right. That's exactly what I was lamenting about - in my own way. I'd love to see excitement about the WC here, brands the do well on the WC translating to the consumer (regardless of whether its the skier or not) as that would only encourage the marketing departments of this or that company to push support for the Alpine racer eventually to the recreational level. It fabulous that NASTAR is out there but I'll bet it would be hard to find a single NASTAR host resort with a complimentary and somewhat comprehensive "Race Program" for their guests. If the ski companies were more encouraged about how their WC dollars were impacting their consumer sales numbers (here in the US of A, that is) more support might trickle down to the recreational racing community. After all the recreational racing community are probably the parents of all those USSA kids who are the future of American Alpine Ski Racing

Jamie, did you get that?

Thanks AM for pointing out how influential Europe remains for the Alpine Ski Industry.

Boy I'm bitter : :
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
I really do think there's a correllation between World Cup race results and overall ski sales.

Atomic has been the racing king for years and years, and I see all kinds of Atomic race skis on my hill (on these days when it hasn't snowed for awhile, anyway). I'm still convinced that Killy sold many skis for Dynamic, Stenmark sold lots of Elans, Tomba sold boatloads of skis for Rossi, Phil and Steve basically made K2, and Hermann (and Bode) have made millions of dollars for Atomic.

I'm finding a very interesting development in my little microcosm of the skiing world. I've been a very big fan of Head skis for about five years now. I'm now also the Jackson Hole mountain rep for them. Just in the last two weeks, I've had LOTS of people asking me about various Head models. They almost invariably mention Bode's success. In years past, if somebody even asked me about Heads, it was usually with a kind of curiousity like "you mean Head is still making skis? I didn't know that."

This year, several of those folks have already bought Head skis. SuperShapes, iM82's and 88's, and Sweet Fat Thangs. That's a really big change just from last year. There's a buzz about Head skis, and I think it's almost completely a function of Bode's racing success. (That and the fact that he's turning into a near-ideal sponsored athlete in that he's mentioning his skis and the company in every interview.)

So, I think that racing success still sells skis.

Just my opinion, of course.
AH! Interesting post Bob. Here in PC we really haven't seen Head blip yet and especially not with the Masters. Atomic definitely made in-roads in the last two years. Recently there has been a surge in Rossi in both the race community (they were always strong with PC juniors) and all mountain (B3's, Squads and so on). Fischer has been strong as well as Nordica. I'll keep an eye out to see if Head starts showing up on the hill in general. Racers have already put their rotation together so I'd bet next year is when Bode's success would hit the Junior and Master programs. I'd say its a safe bet the Ligety's switch to Rossi got a few more of the Masters over to Rossi but not many, yet.

If I had to guess I'd say that IMD Masters is led by Fischer, Atomic, with Nordica and Rossi a pretty distant third but fairly equal but as I said Rossi seems to be picking up some steam. This is just my impression, haven't run a serious survey.
post #15 of 24
I guess I didn't realize budgets were being cut. I was just kinda confused because your second post just (essentially) went off on the new "punks" of the ski hill.

Anyway, I think the point about Europe is true... Ski racing just isn't followed much here.

Head (as an example) does seem to be an up and coming brand, but I hesitate to attribute it to Bode. They have been putting out an increasingly better product for the past several years. I think finally this season they were again "ready" to enter the world cup ski pool. Or at least the U.S. Pool... I don't think they were ever totally gone.

One thing is for sure.... the success of world cup racers certainly won't HURT a brand!!!
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
I guess I didn't realize budgets were being cut. I was just kinda confused because your second post just (essentially) went off on the new "punks" of the ski hill.

Anyway, I think the point about Europe is true... Ski racing just isn't followed much here.

Head (as an example) does seem to be an up and coming brand, but I hesitate to attribute it to Bode. They have been putting out an increasingly better product for the past several years. I think finally this season they were again "ready" to enter the world cup ski pool. Or at least the U.S. Pool... I don't think they were ever totally gone.

One thing is for sure.... the success of world cup racers certainly won't HURT a brand!!!
Yeah, sorry about the "Punk" thing, its part of the "culture" I see out there and why dollars are being pulled from certain programs. That was a bit of mixed message but there was an obscure link to the original post, at least in my mind :
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Yeah, sorry about the "Punk" thing, its part of the "culture" I see out there and why dollars are being pulled from certain programs. That was a bit of mixed message but there was an obscure link to the original post, at least in my mind :
Hey, don't be sorry! I see your point completely about the "punks." However, like you alluded to, the ski industry needs their $$$. (otherwise we were destined to become a snowboard industry)

Salomon has all but quit the racing end of things... park and pipe is where its at to make money. Try finding a pair of Salomon race skis right now....
post #18 of 24

Wins do matter ...

Wins matter big time when it comes to brand name recognition and sales. That is why the top FIS athletes are paid millions. I remember when Bode switched to Atomics the buzz was that the undisclosed amount of money was the highest ever in the history of ski racing and I don't think he got paid any less from HEAD this year. Think about why the racers are supposed to take off and lift at least one of their skis at the finish before they exit as the cameras are rolling. In case you don't know that is actually written in their sponsor contract. What about that pair they are handed at the podium, sometimes those aren't even their skis.
When it comes to young racers, lots of time coaches recommend what ski brand he/she should buy, and on what do you think that recommendation is based?

Ski companies really want every bit of racing exposure they can get because it helps their sales. And while it's true that the TV coverage in US sucks dreadfully, you should see the billboards and posters plastered all over northern Europe not to mention the complete real time WC coverage. And just to point out some of that goes for Cross Country racing too.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Go ROSSI!! Who likes HEAD
Back when I was youngster and still racing a friend of mine had a great T-shirt. A picture of Le Coq with the caption,

GIVE ME ROSSIGNOL OR GIVE ME HEAD
post #20 of 24
HEY, WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH ALL THE YELLING??
post #21 of 24
somebody is old and out of touch, and his name starts with a "G" and ends in "ary."
post #22 of 24
"Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" - the old car racing adage holds true for skis. My local ski shops stocks mostly Atomic and Rossi race skis - when I asked why, I was told it is because these are the brands that the kids see on TV, and these are the brands the kids are asking for.
post #23 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618 View Post
somebody is old and out of touch, and his name starts with a "G" and ends in "ary."
You're right about one thing - I'm sure old
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Recently there has been a surge in Rossi in both the race community (they were always strong with PC juniors) I'd say its a safe bet the Ligety's switch to Rossi got a few more of the Masters over to Rossi but not many, yet.

If I had to guess I'd say that IMD Masters is led by Fischer, Atomic, with Nordica and Rossi a pretty distant third but fairly equal but as I said Rossi seems to be picking up some steam. This is just my impression, haven't run a serious survey.
In the early season race camps at Copper I noticed a lot of the kids were on Rossignol. Since Rossi's are usually pretty damp and more of a finesse ski, they seem to be popular with lighter skiers in the Masters Division as well. I think there is something to be said for picking the ski that works for you at your weight and skiing style. I would expect Rossignol to stay popular with this type of skier regardless of any World Cup hype.

Anybody who follows skiing at this level knows that the skiers on the World Cup pretty much get skis hand-built to their specific preferences, so those guys and gals are not skiing on off-the-rack retail race stock. But if a Head is willing to improve the general quality of the retail race stock so that it is closer to a real World Cup ski, like Fischer and Atomic have over the last few years, then I think there will be some spill over. I've been hearing buzz about Head getting better for the last two to three years, maybe signing Bode is just another sign of their willingness to invest. We all want to be on the best skis we can find, and for a core group there is a certain mystique about World Cup race-stock. So the closer we can get at retail to what the team members are on, the more this is going to drive sales of these speciality skis. This also seems to carry over to some extent into specialty carving skis, like the Fischer RX-8.

But I am not convinced that there is a big carry over into the all mountain for the masses skis, or even the specialty ski market. If you are looking at all mountain for the masses, price and availability at your local retailer tend to make the difference. If you've ever listened to someone buying intermediate skis, they rely on the tech and look at the price, most of the gapers are not looking at what Bode skis. As regards backcountry and park skis, this is driven by what your friends are on and word of mouth. For example, K2 is huge in these catagories, but doesn't have any reputation at all when it comes to racing.
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