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Cherchez les femmes? - Page 3

post #61 of 99
QUOTE]Originally posted by nolobolono:
I'd bet most of us posting on epic were introduced to SNOWPLAY by our family of origin.[/quote]


Wrong. I started skiing when I was 21, surfing when I was 11. Adventure sports are for individuals. Being individual in a homogenous world takes courage. Courage can be found in anybody. It is just that a majority of western humanity never actually finds their individuality preferring to give up this most important freedom for the false security of conforming to society.

Not everything has a rhyme or reason. Times are constantly changing. Women are welcome and encouraged in skiing. Women generally started to get some real "equal time" freedoms in the past 30 years so in many areas women are just starting out.

My ex skied; she stopped, why … well no one takes her anymore. My boys both ski with me.

I think encouragement; the correct environment & the “individual type” factor apply to all skiers, women & men. Personally I love individual courageous ski women.

post #62 of 99
nolo, I like the inquiring mind, so I like that you got this started. I am fascinated by the male/female sporting divergence from a somewhat differnt point of view. Yes, I do believe that Title IX is needed and yes, I do believe that, as much as has been done, we need to do more to remove obstacles, including legal, economic and cultural. BUT: During twenty-five years of my life, I raised bird dogs and spent as much of October and November in the woods as I could. I "hung out" with folks at dog field trials and at skeet shooting ranges. Sure, there was the rare female hotshot trap or skeet shooter and there was the very ocassional female running a dog in a field trial. But rarely, very rarely, have I ever encountered or known of women who go into the woods to hunt. There is no way to keep women out of the woods if they want to grab a gun and go there - at least not here in Vermont. But they don't. Among other reasons, it has occured to me that perhaps there is a biological basis for that - just perhaps. I know that this kind of thinking is so very very politically incorrect, and I despise "political correctness" just as I despise other forms of authoritarian "thinking". So has this biological basis - not discrimination, not personal bias, not cultural expectations - has this biological basis been considered in the subjects you've discussed in connection with your masters degree program? Like you, I'm just asking - I just would like to know more about it, and one does not learn more new stuff by agreeing in advance not to consider it. So what's your take on this?
post #63 of 99
Here's an anecdote for you to analyze: Both the men's and women's hockey teams at the University of New Hampshire are top ranked nationally. Both have been national champions in recent years.

The men's team consistently sells out every seat of a 6,000 seat arena at home games.
The women's team, even with two Olympic Team members on their roster, is lucky if they get 2,000 people out to their games in the same arena.

This says a lot about our entire society's attitude toward women in sports.

Why are we proud of Title IX? We should be ashamed that it was necessary.
post #64 of 99
Thread Starter 
I misspoke when I said that K2's T-Nine stands for all-terrain, Level 9.

It is short for Title IX.

Now ain't that ironic?
post #65 of 99
Thread Starter 

Here in Montana, there are women hunters. There's even a woman in Great Falls who teaches other women how to hunt, but I suspect most learn the art from their fathers and husbands.

This is what sociologists call an ideological influence. In most cultures, I presume, the ideology would not be so supportive of a woman hunting. It would be considered deviant, that is deviating from the norms of femininity.

For many years, a woman who played sports was considered deviant. Hence the lingering interest in whether or not a particular woman athlete is a lesbian. (As if that would explain the athletic ability!)

I have read Bambi too many times to count. I carefully pick up houseflies and release them to the wild. Once in the twilight I didn't see a family of ducks crossing the highway and I mowed into the lot of them. When I arrived at my destination the license plate was festooned with duck down. I felt terrible for some time, and to this day I can't abide the expression, "Get your ducks in a row." It's not a good idea, if you're a family of ducks crossing a Montana highway before they imposed the speed limit.

The love of the hunt is probably not genetic so much as cultural.

There are genetic differences, of course. Women, in general, are less competitive and more collaborative (which would explain why your female companion waits for you to get reassembled after a fall and your male companion lets you catch up later). A male mountaineering friend claims that in a pinch, he would far rather depend on a woman for his survival than a man, probably for the same reason.

Hormones create some obvious differences. The brains of men and women are different: women have more dendrites and generally use more of the brain cortex of both hemispheres. The only muscles in women that are as strong or stronger than men are the thighs and the tongue (!), but women score high against men in endurance if not power.

Women are more focused on relationships and patterns where men are more focused on tasks and details. Women tend to be nonlinear in their thinking, where men tend to be more sequential and linear.

But most of the differences have to do with the relentless brainwashing that both sexes are subjected to in our culture. In other words, ideology accounts for a large measure of the differences between men and women, and is probably the main reason why women don't ski (or hunt or fish) to the level or extent that men do.

Ideology certainly accounts for the crowd at a women's hockey game being one-third the size of the crowd at a men's hockey game.
post #66 of 99
This is an interesting thread, if somewhat unnecessarily contentious at times. For what it's worth, my experiences as a sportswriter and "most intelligent" of my graduating class tally with the concept that women not knowing "their place" were and still are given the tag of being lesbians or abnormal or unattractive or unmarriageable or something like that. Maybe there are a lot of unthreatened men out there who have experienced enough of life (or are comfortable enough as skiers/whatever) that this doesn't describe them. But for every one of them, there is at least one guy (is this a class argument?) who makes sure he "settles" on some semi-unthreatening woman, be that defined by athleticism, intelligence, income, etc. I've been through this now THREE times.

If I were ever to get a tatoo (really a hypothetical for me -- it's not cool if dad has a ton o' 'em), it would say "Intimidating boys since 1978." That's when a male cousin informed me it was pretty unlikely I would ever reproduce, a jab reflecting a lack of male desire, though it could have been a statement on my own sexuality, too. Anyway, as 2001 comes to a close he leads 2-0, or so I hear. I should probably concede. At least I get respect when I lecture, 'cause intimidation works wonders on the lads.

Mark's sociological survey seemed quite thorough on the main point -- and probably would stand up to a real study, too. (Sounds like a dissertation topic.) Ott's photo looked great; worth aspiring to as well.

post #67 of 99
Lisamarie wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I remember when I used to lurk on epicski. There were topics like "Sex on the Chairlift", etc. Some of the flame wars were a bit "raw", so to speak. I wonder if it depends on what phase the forum is going through that determines whether a woman will decide to post here. Right now, things are relatively "calm", so to speak. I wonder if during our rowdier or raunchier moments, some women feel too intimidated to post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lisa, your comment nails the issue. My comment here is more directed to www forums in general rather than this relatively tame forum. Just like in their everyday personal world, there are a always some smirking guys which can't resist continually making crude sexually comments either to their male friends or slyly to gals. They often seem to perceive their talk as inoffensive and may argue that they do so (in their small often juvenile world) around their own group of friends and they "don't seem to mind" and or "everybody does it". There are some women who have no trouble deflecting the usual kind of remarks one sees but I would guess there are many more slightly disgusted that simply choose avoidance. This was the state of things in the workplace just a couple decades ago and like smoking has been culturally and legally banished to the outside. It is unfortunate the internet is often such crude environment. I for one would like to see more women participate not only on this forum but also on the slopes where the ratios not surprisingly never have been even, especially at the more skilled levels. -dave
post #68 of 99
Very interesting how this topic turned around. I had a bit of trouble getting my mind around it to begin with and have come to realize it is because I am one of the few (according to this post) women who break the rules.

I love to ski to the point of heading up by myself once or twice a week (okay this doesn't always make me happy but once I'm there all that matters are the runs).

I participate in "non group" sports (horseback riding - jumping, swimming, and skiing).

I have, in the past, had hunting dogs that participated in trials and go out to hunt with friends.

I am a total gear head. I have to have the latest and greatest and will pour over industry mags to get all the info.

I frequent several web boards and as you all know I am not afraid to share.

I've never looked at anything as being a "man's domaine" so therefore I can't participate.

OMG! No wonder I'm single! : LOL!

NOLO: I too have heard those words many times "No man will ever marry you." To that I say - "...and your point is?"

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 31, 2001 06:19 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Sugar Snack ]</font>
post #69 of 99
Heck, Sugar, I'll marry you. For you I commit bigamy...and maybe I'll marry Nolo too, for her I commit trigonometry....(or whatever you call that)

Happy New Year everybody. Once my hangover is gone I'll watch the races I taped yesterday on OLN, a station we just got now with our digital cable.

post #70 of 99
So, I go away for 5 days and Ott's trying to muscle in...

Yes, I'm back. Went to Naples for the New Year (couldn't get flights to Snacksville!) And got home an hour ago. Luggage is due tomorrow, it probably went skiing in the alps.

I'll post a photo later (when I get the camera plugged in of the conditions in Savoie region, but that will be in a different section of the forum)

Back to the title of this topic, yes I am cherchez-ing les femmes, in fact one would be enough! (oops, maybe I should read the topic before I post)

Lonely from Belfast.
post #71 of 99
This is a prime opportunity for all of you single folks to show up at Fernie! Ya never know what might happen.

I'm willing to bet that if Sugar and her girls showed up, attendance would sky rocket.

Look at all the positives:
1) You'll get to meet Bears.
2) You'll get to ski with Bears.
3) Free ski lessons.
4) Great skiing.
5) Life long frienships, and maybe even...

So who's in?
post #72 of 99
If you're going to be at Fernie in April, I'll book my flights.

post #73 of 99
Dave, when I first "entered the internet world", I too was amazed at how contentious most forums can be. In the begining, my attitude was one of avoidance. If someone said something offensive, I would not return to that forum again. Interestingly, I have a hard time verbally defending myself in the "real world", too. Plus, my skiing style could probably be described as self protective.

Since its pretty much common knowledge that verbal violence, just like physical violence towards women is an indicator of either impotentcy, or latent homosexuality, it amazes me that any guy would choose to announce his inadequacy over the internet!

Keep in mind I am NOT talking about a man debating a woman, I am talking about purposely offensive comments. But one thing I have learned from one year on Epic is how to verbally fight back. I've also learned not to hold grudges. People I've been in bitter conflict with are now people I like very much.

The sexual inuendo stuff is interesting, because there is such a thin line between what is just fun, and what is crude. Also, what is totally acceptable for someone whose been around for awhile may not be aacceptable comment for a new comer.
post #74 of 99
Since its pretty much common knowledge that verbal violence, just like physical violence towards women is an indicator of either impotentcy, or latent homosexuality...

Or, in my case, just a whole lot of holiday anxiety and frustration. Just try being single in a town where most single women are either college age, or married/paired up, or lesbian. Then add on top of that the fact that my family all are on the East Coast and they want me to come "home" for the holidays, even though my company looks nastily at anyone who takes vacation during December. For me, that's a surefire recipe for surliness.

As to impotence or latent homosexuality, I think I'm safe on those two fronts! Maybe the "common knowledge" link refers to verbal threats of actual violence, and not vehemence and personal attack?

Sugee, I ski by myself 75% of the time. The other 25% I'm getting coached by that inestimably fine former race coach, Jim Weiss, and so I ski with him. I also participate extensively in solo sports -- cycling, fly fishing, skiing. I haven't played a team sport since 1998 when I tore my left ACL playing indoor soccer. Before that, it was 1989 playing club lacrosse while in grad school. Hear me howl at the moon!
post #75 of 99
Now wait a minute. Does someone here feel that women don't get a fair shake here?

I read Lisa's posts - very informative. After all, the woman has met Fred Lebow. nolo is political, but can get it rolling. And our old friend Sugar, well, she's the star of the show! She's so popular Ott has offered to marry her

I've never done the forum thang until here and I don't go anywhere else. What's great about epic is that it's real. Barnes really does exist! Short skis and all! So does Rusty and Mr. and Mrs. Skicrazy. Then, we're all going to meet up in Fernie! Holy smokes, it's going to be a riot! All these ski nerds sitting in the lodge with their laptops -- typing to each other. OMG!

From my keyboard, there really aren't any bad actors here (except for the ones who teach wedge turns) -- it's just a nice place with cool people. But I guess for all I know, some could be typing from prison. Maybe that thought scares some away.

I guess it's just how it goes. At the pool swimming laps, it's mostly men. Same with cycling. Definitely more male than female skiers, but boarders seem to be pretty equal.
post #76 of 99
Well, not that I was planning to go to Fernie anyway [time, money, yada yada], but now it's poured in concrete. After that last post by Snack, wifey won't let me get on the same hill with her! Bigamy and triganometry?! Does that describe the number of pieces I'll be in if wifey gets the wrong idea?! No, I'll stay in one piece, thank you [PLEASE no smart ass remarks on that]
post #77 of 99
Looks like I've got things all the wrong way round!
I'm an advanced skier with a boyfriend who's an intermediate snowboarder. We met playing for the same field hockey team and share an interest in sports gear, hi-fi, playstation, cars etc (Grue - VW Lupo GTi [img]smile.gif[/img])

So we are great together when we're at home, but when we go on ski vacation everything goes horribly wrong because he doesn't share my obsession. I want to be up on the first lift no matter what the weather, but he's on vacation so doesn't want to get up too early.
When we ski/board together I just get really frustrated with having to wait at the top of lifts and when he falls over. Every second on the slopes is precious to me.

I feel embarrassed that I get annoyed and know I should be more patient with him, but I just can't help it, so most of the time I ski alone and we meet up later in the afternoon when I don't mind taking it easy.

He says I'm a completely different person when I'm on skis and I think he's probably right because I feel so alive, confident and happy that I don't want anything (or anyone) to spoil it.
This year I'm going on a 5 week ski trip on my own and it's been difficult to explain to him why I want to do that. He's a lovely man and I will miss him loads while I'm away, but I have to feed my addiction. I only hope he is still there when I get home!

So perhaps it's more important whether you've got the skiing obsession bug or not, rather than your sex?

When I found epic I never even thought about the fact that I'm a woman - I was just so pleased to find so many fellow addicts and couldn't wait to think of something to post!
post #78 of 99
for the men adrenaline and power drive feelings are important, keeps them alive.
women would pay a fortune for getting into shape and stay fit, but a great part of them dont enjoy agressive atitudes like skiing a steep mountain, they are more home-oriented than men, and if they are not home-oriented , most likely they are career or social leisure orientated.
They dont usually fell the rush of blood in their veins as many men do. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I think that explains a lot about the lesser interest of women for ski talk, even if the number of skiers on the slopes , at least here in Romania, is almost equal to men and women.
post #79 of 99
I've been contributing to computer discussion/bulletin boards since 1987 and women have always been in the minority. I don't think it's a skiing thing, it's an on-line forum thing.

For the record, my husband & I go skiing together. We didn't meet skiing, we met at the bridge table but took up skiing together. I'm probably better technically (at least that's what our last instructor said) but he's fitter. For the first time in December I was going faster than him - interesting to see how that develops next time we ski...

Most of the people I know who ski are men, but then most of my friends are men (I read a male-dominated subject at university & work in a male-dominated business & relax with a male-dominated card game).

In my experience, when I've met families who go skiing the male of the family skis all day, the woman skis part of the day but also looks after the kids (in/out of ski school etc). So the man gets more hours & probably improves more.
post #80 of 99
[quote]Originally posted by Danone:
they are more home-oriented than men, and if they are not home-oriented , most likely they are career or social leisure orientated.

Glad to see that political correctness hasn't gained a foothold in Romania!

post #81 of 99
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David7:
Here's an anecdote for you to analyze: Both the men's and women's hockey teams at the University of New Hampshire are top ranked nationally. <snip>Why are we proud of Title IX? We should be ashamed that it was necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. The same holds true for U. of Portland's soccer teams.
post #82 of 99
Fernie looks and sounds great but I'm tentatively scheduled for Sun Valley in Feb. I'll have to see......damn I wish I still had that house in Spokane - it would make popping up there so much easier.

You ppl are all so nice - way to make me feel included!

Ott - you're sweet.

Fox - you should know better than to leave the country.

Hey I'm just your average ski crazy tomato (tomato is in ref to my name).

Regarding women on the internet I think you guys just aren't visiting the right web sites. Try some of these out:


Riot Girl


Chick Click

The Spark

And some of the biggest womens web pages......wedding web pages!!!

The Knot

Forever Wed

Ultimate Wedding

The Wedding Channel
post #83 of 99
I don't think a lot of women realize how many guys would love to ski with a self-assured, adventuresome, low maintenance woman who loves skiing. My past experience with girlfriends led me to believe that most of them didn't care that much about skiing, but did it to be with their significant other.
post #84 of 99
Question #1: What's up with that?

I think its more the questions of why more women are not as passionate about skiing as men. We had this very discussion this past week. I live in Colorado where you would think I would have lots of women friends who ski. Nope. Really only 3 that ski well and only one that skis often. Without exception all of our friends are fit. Typically they work out in a gym and perhaps run or bike. Only the same three would go Mtn Biking, Cross Country, Snowshoeing of there own accord. Our other friends I think as more "fit" and less as "active"

Question #2: For those of you who are in a relationship (and this is a gender neutral question in sensitivity to those with issues), does your loved one ski?

Yes he does. We just got back from Summit and skied 7 of the 10 days. Other days we hiked or snowshoed. He ways kinda tired on the 7th day.

Question #3: Do you ski together on a regular basis, or is there too much disparity between your skill levels for more than a few duty runs before you (or he/she) split for the high traverse?[/QB][/quote]

We typically ski together most of the day. He is a better skier than I. He just has to wait at the bottom for me.
I usually can go down the runs he wants to. I even have fun, just a bit slower.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 02, 2002 10:43 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Kima ]</font>
post #85 of 99

Any of those three interested in meeting a swell guy from Boulder who can't seem to hook up with any women who do fun stuff like ski and mtn bike?

Just kidding. Sort of.
post #86 of 99
Sorry astrochimp all are taken.

You ought to think about meeting up at Copper for the Colorado Bears get together. I hear Jane is coming and if I remember right she is recently single
post #87 of 99
Kima, keep me & the Chimp in mind... Chimp locally, me for those who have tired of McBoulder and the rest of the McFrontRange... moving to Missoula would be a wise move for any athletic skiing/mtb riding woman with an IQ of at least 135 and a decidedly non-yuppie approach to life. Of course, I'd have to incapacitate all my single guy friends to keep the odds in my favor!

post #88 of 99
I may be there. I tweaked my knee on the 17th and am off the snow for a few more weeks. I want to go back to Copper to get cruising again. I may be at the get together if I am capable of skiing.

Gonzo, McBoulder does have some fine McChicks. Mmmmmm...

Ever been to Whitefish? I have thought of bailing from here to there for the skiing and mt biking life without the McSUV's, McI-70 corridor, Mcprefrab housing everywhere...
post #89 of 99
Chimp, the Fish is a nice town, and the skiing and mtb riding there are first rate. The fly fishing is a bit sub-par by Western MT standards.

I don't live there because it's so friggin' expensive. But coming from McBoulder, you'd find it about normal, or perhaps even fairly inexepensive.

I know about the McBoulder women. My step-brother and his wife live & work in McBoulder. I was there for their wedding, and saw many a sweet lady in town. However, I did note that many of them were Yuppies, or that dreaded new fad of 21st Century Retro Hippie, or worse yet, a combination of the two!
post #90 of 99
Thread Starter 
It seems that in a perfect world, the epicski regulars would prefer to have a hot skier (male or female) for their life companion.

Specifically, the men who post on epicski would prefer wife-as-ski-partner to wife-as-skiing-enabler.

Would that be a fair assumption?
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