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jay peak or stowe this weekend? - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Hey rivercOil,Does Cannon get crazy busy on the weekends?I've heard good things about it,but it's hard for me to drive past Jay.
post #32 of 55
I'm not rivercoil nor do I play him on tv but I can tell you that due to it's location and very little lodging at base, actually the lodging is next door, it is usually not as crowded as most of the other resorts.

About Stowe.....as someone mentioned it's owned by the huge insurance conglomerate AIG who has been having some financial problems. It looks like they are concentrating most of their money on the huge developement at Spruce.

Regarding Sugarbush they have a 110m gallon snowmaking pond, water is a problem but the big problem is getting enough electricity off the grid to run the system.
post #33 of 55
Talk about emasculatinating a mountain, stop focusing on Stowe and take a look at the 'improvements' at Cannon. It's a great mountain (if you enjoy wind tunnels) that was as burly as it gets, now it's been tamed by snowmaking, grooming and trail recontouring.

It's better for intermediates and family skiing, but it's much more homogenous, a little bit of Okemo wore off on the State with the Sunapee deal, thats not a real good thing in Cannon's case.
post #34 of 55
As for the 'soul of Stowe' being lost...

Think about the Spruce Peak 'improvements' from this perspective; If Spruce becomes a great area for beginners, intermediates and family skiing, all of them will ski there instead of on Mansfield. The Mansfield trails will be empty, the snow will remain in better shape longer, there won't be as many gapers wandering out to the bench, it will be an improvement by default.

Epic is 100% accurate in his assesment of whats up.
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Talk about emasculatinating a mountain, stop focusing on Stowe and take a look at the 'improvements' at Cannon. It's a great mountain (if you enjoy wind tunnels) that was as burly as it gets, now it's been tamed by snowmaking, grooming and trail recontouring.

It's better for intermediates and family skiing, but it's much more homogenous, a little bit of Okemo wore off on the State with the Sunapee deal, thats not a real good thing in Cannon's case.
The you probably won't be too happy to hear that the deal to lease out Cannon is still on the table, gonna take awhile, after all your talking about state government here and got to think that Triple Peaks is checking it out.
post #36 of 55
I grew up skiing cannon, some of the improvements are better and some are targeted at making a tough mountain manageable for the masses.

Honestly that post was more a response to the criticism of Stowe, my current home. I think saying Stowe is selling out is silly, every mountain (thats not a co-op) HAS TO.
post #37 of 55

Cannon TR

Whiteroom -

Thought you might enjoy this
http://forums.alpinezone.com/11858-c...tml#post128069
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

Honestly that post was more a response to the criticism of Stowe, my current home. I think saying Stowe is selling out is silly, every mountain (thats not a co-op) HAS TO.
HAS TO. What to make money?

I have not seen what's going on in Stowe, but it sounds like large scale development in Vermont's wilderness. This area needs to be protected. Development needs to be managed.

What's happening on Spruce to make it a better place for intermediates and beginners - wider trails and smoothed terrain. It's only a matter of time before the woods get dumbed down and thinned.

The whole idea is to accomodate the masses. It won't be long before Mansfield is a suburb.
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
HAS TO. What to make money?

I have not seen what's going on in Stowe, but it sounds like large scale development in Vermont's wilderness. This area needs to be protected. Development needs to be managed.

What's happening on Spruce to make it a better place for intermediates and beginners - wider trails and smoothed terrain. It's only a matter of time before the woods get dumbed down and thinned.

The whole idea is to accomodate the masses. It won't be long before Mansfield is a suburb.
I don't think so.......it took Stowe several tries over the last 15 years to be allowed to build this. They are building it on the Spruce side cause the Mansfield side is in a state forest and were not allowed to build anything there. Wilderness it is not. The suburbs it will never be.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Think about the Spruce Peak 'improvements' from this perspective; If Spruce becomes a great area for beginners, intermediates and family skiing, all of them will ski there instead of on Mansfield. The Mansfield trails will be empty, the snow will remain in better shape longer, there won't be as many gapers wandering out to the bench, it will be an improvement by default.
maybe, or think about the business plan as a bad one for skiiers. Spruce peak brings in a bunch of new skiers and riders. These people start off at spruce because it is close to their condo. They are regular skiers there and they soon find out it is very small with not a ton of terrain. They look longingly across the valley this huge other part of the stowe. Soon, they are all venturing over to the mansfield side. Effect = more people on the mansfield side=more trails skied off sooner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHrefugee View Post
I don't think so.......it took Stowe several tries over the last 15 years to be allowed to build this. They are building it on the Spruce side cause the Mansfield side is in a state forest and were not allowed to build anything there. Wilderness it is not. The suburbs it will never be.
Yes, it took them along time to get the plan through... because it is a bad plan. And before spruce condos this was wilderness. Not state forest but forest none the less. They clear cut it. Yes, clear cut to make those condos. suburbs it will be and the creep of stores, markets, bars...(suburbs) from town will continue their slow expansion towards the mountain.

Finally, I go back to $78 ticket price???
post #41 of 55
Personal opinion...but I don't think they will ever be allowed to build between Toll House and the main resort area.

In addition to desparetly needing a bed base at the resort they needed a new source for water for snowmaking. I remember one plan, maybe 10 years ago, they proposed building a pipeline from the resort to Waterbury Resevoir...what a joke.

You might consider the place they are building was wilderness but most of us in Vermont don't. As far as the suburbs, it will never look like Boston or Troy. Conversly, Rt 108 is pretty developed that's why I live in the MRV.
post #42 of 55
Asland, that is what skiing costs these days. I'm not sure where the image of skiing as an 'every man's sport' comes from, it hasn't ever been a sport that was inclussive or available to everyone. Look at photos of the early days of skiing then look at photos of Marthas Vineyard or Nantucket from the same time. It's the same people. It more accessable now than then.

Smuggler Notch is $62 Mad River Glen $54, what do they offer for that?

I'd pay $15 more for Stowe, it's a better mountain with a great lift layout.
post #43 of 55
You really need to go up to Spruce and see what has been done and what is going to be done, there hasn't been any clear cutting, there won't be any clear cutting. Know what you're talking about before you spout off on the internet. This (Stowe) isn't a community that will allow rampant development. There are HUGE tracts of conservation land in the center of town. There are 100,000's of acres under the Stowe Conservation control all around Stowe, stop jumping to conclussions.
post #44 of 55
White, I am limited in my knowledge of what is taking place in Stowe. I don't see the conversation as spouting off so far. Some people are concerned about the development taking place right at the base of the highest peak in Vt. I think it's a valid concern. IMHO those condos are not in the best interest of caring for the wilderness. Wilderness includes more than National Forest and it does need to be protected.

The term clear cut may be an over statement, but I would like to know how much timber was removed from Spruce. I know that good snowmaking requires open space and getting open space means cutting. When trails are made, that to me is clear cutting. When trails are widened, that too could be clear cutting. Vermont and Stowe in particular was famous for it's narrow trails. Huge open trails should not be encouraged in so far as I am concerned.

The almighty buck is driving this, and once it's gone it can never be brought back.
post #45 of 55
Paul, I'm on your team as far as protecting wild places (and easy to access woodland paths) but Stowe is the wrong community to choose when you talk about allowing developers to have their way, or short sighted self interest ruining natural beauty. There are HUGE tracts of land all over this town that are permanently preserved. This is a model community when it comes to choosing quality of life over making a buck.

Don't confuse AIG with the community of Stowe, and don't think anyone living here will turn a blind eye to a poorly thought out development on 'our' mountain. What they are doing won't look real good this season but in the next 2 years it will all start to come together and I really think everyone will be proud.
post #46 of 55

accessable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Asland, that is what skiing costs these days. I'm not sure where the image of skiing as an 'every man's sport' comes from, it hasn't ever been a sport that was inclussive or available to everyone. Look at photos of the early days of skiing then look at photos of Marthas Vineyard or Nantucket from the same time. It's the same people. It more accessable now than then.

Smuggler Notch is $62 Mad River Glen $54, what do they offer for that?

I'd pay $15 more for Stowe, it's a better mountain with a great lift layout.
I've looked at a lot of historical photos and though they have some of the Martha's vineyard crowd I also have noticed a ton of people from vermont. I would not say that skiing is more accessable today. It should be but prices keep rising like crazy and stowe always seems to be leading the pack (except for maybe killington).

I'm from a solid middle class family and have been sking in Vermont since I was two years old, some years I even skiied everyday but the prices are getting crazy.

yes, smugglers is expensive at $62 and mad river glenn at $54 but look at all the specials (seee below) they have to make it more accessable for locals. Meanwhile, my brother and friends that live in or near Stowe have to travel to other areas to ski becasue they are priced out.:

Smuggler's Notch Deals

Regular Prices
Adult $58

Off-site All Mt $45

Business Monday: Drop your business card at the ticket booth and receive $15 off a full-day 3-mountain lift ticket.

Tuesday Demo Days: Just $19.95 lets you demo the latest skis all day long. Visit 3 Mountain Equipment for more details.

Smuggs U: Present your valid college ID on any Thursday and pay just $29 for a full-day, 3-mountain lift ticket.

Vermonter Days: On Fridays, Vermonters with proof of residency pay half-price for lift tickets, group lessons, and rental equipment.


Mad River Glenn Deals

Regular Prices
Adult $54

Afternoon Half-day Special
Ski every non-holiday afternoon Sunday through Friday for only $29!

The Mad Card
$119 - The Best Value in Ski Country - Gives you 3 Days of Skiing for $39 a day
3 transferable day tickets good any time during the 2006-2007 ski season
$29 Midweek/Non-holiday tickets (Limit: 1 per Mad Card/Day)
Mad Cards are only sold until December 15, 2006.
Order online or call the office at (802)496-3551

Ski for $1
Buy a two-day ticket and ski the next day for only $1! Available every day throughout the season except during holiday periods.

The Day-and-a-Half Midweek Special
Buy a ticket for the next day and ski the afternoon before free! What a great way to get out of town for a quick getaway! This special is available after 12 noon Sunday through Thursday and is not offered during holiday periods.

Any Other Pass Special
Ski for only $29 midweek when you present any valid season pass from any other ski area.

Vermonter Wednesdays
Vermonters ski every Wednesday for only $29! Not valid during holiday periods. Must provide proof of residence.

$29 Student Deal
College Students ski every midweek day for only $29!. Not valid during holiday periods. Must provide valid student ID.

January 30, 2007 Roll Back The Clock Day $3.50!

post #47 of 55
Seasons pass. Buy one and save.

Lift ticket prices haven't gone up anywhere near the costs of almost every other item you could purchase. What did a day pass at KMart cost in 1986? I'm guessing $45. What was the average cost of a home in 1986? I'm guessing $100,000. What was the average family income in 1986? $40,000? Now probably $80,000. Skiing doesn't 'cost more' now.
post #48 of 55
This thread just goes to show that you can never win. Every time you make an improvement for one group you get a complaint from another. How many times on this forum have we seen people steered away from Stowe because ythere is no slopeside accomodation. SMR changes that and they are ruining the fragile alpine wilderness environment, With Act 250 and all they have to jump through hoops you wouldn't believe. Another big complaint was those old green busses to get from Mansfield to Spruce. As soon as they put in the transfer lift, people started complaining about that. Spruce Peak (the development) is pretty small. It's footprint is pretty much the old Spruce Parking lot.
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cspsskiguy View Post
Hey rivercOil,Does Cannon get crazy busy on the weekends?I've heard good things about it,but it's hard for me to drive past Jay.
unless it is a powder day, cannon is hardly ever crowded. most lifts are usually less than a minute wait. great place, but it needs snow. with a lot of snow, it is hard to beat, but you gotta know where to go...
post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Mad River Glen $54, what do they offer for that?
say what? sorry to hijack, but MRG for $54 may be the best value for a full priced weekend lift ticket for what you get. depends what you like though, obviously it isn't for everyone. but for those that like what MRG offers, that price is a steal compared to the other lift ticket prices in the greens.
post #51 of 55
Comparing Stowe and Mad River is an interesting comparison. I cannot comment on Smuggs but I hear they have a bunch of exciting terrain also.

I skied Stowe last year and was impressed with the trees and steeps, also the backcountry oppurtunities. As a mad river skied I skied Jay a few years ago and while I liked it, I did not find the challenge that mad river offered(I know Big Jay has it but we did not ski it) Stowe however did have that kind of terrain. It being the same distance as Mad River I looked at the prices, it was not comporable. The season pass price was off the scale. Some other pro's and cons

Mad River

Pros

Amazing trees and off the map expert oppurtunities
the runs are empty
one central base area
My daughter gets a free pass with a mad card or season pass
great feel, really unique
Single chair
Good affordable food
no snowboarders(no offense but the skiing lines are cleaner as a result)

Cons

Line on the single chair
Single chair(to some people)
No above treeline backcountry like stowe

Stowe

Pros

Above treeline backcountry
Trees and steeps
Higher Uphill capacity
Snowmaking

Cons

Glitz, and the attitude that comes with it
higher uphill capacity=too many people on the trails
cost
crowds at times
spread out makes for some traversing
snowboarders

Thought some people might find this comparison interesting. You can flame me I do not care. I am happy to report on two mountains so close togethor both with great terrain and such a different feel. As for the person dissing Mad River assuming you ski many of stowes steeps and trees you need to come to mad and ski with someone who knows there way around...

Alfonse
post #52 of 55
For me,

I'm mostly a weekend skier and the line for the single at Mad River is something I'm not up for. Stowe does have great back-country skiing and I doubt that it is more "crowded" than MRG's trees. I'm going off memory here because I haven't been to Mad River in about 15 years... but hey, that's the beauty of the place - it never changes. Stowe on the other hand, well they ruined it when they put the first high-speed quad up the front. Didn't they use to have an old double and a single?

Cannon is great on a powder day, but, Rivercoil, you can have it to yourself the rest of the time. I'm glad they finally opened up the tram line side from the top and I have not skied there since that happened.

Jay Peak's got it all but the pitch doesn't last and there is that run-out. Still, its got the snow, the glades all over the freakin place and Big Jay. But the worst thing about Jay is that it is getting more crowded.

Of all the above areas, the couple of times a year I make it that far north, I've been hitting Jay almost exclusively for the past 5 years. Think I may change it up a bit this season.
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverc0il View Post
and while everyone was deciding if stowe or jay would be better this weekend, i was skiing boot to knee deep at cannon. vermont isn't always the place to be!
Nice! trip report!
post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
Cannon is great on a powder day, but, Rivercoil, you can have it to yourself the rest of the time. I'm glad they finally opened up the tram line side from the top and I have not skied there since that happened.
what ev man, you are preaching to the choir. i live closer to cannon than jay but have a jay pass. there is something to be said about dependability and lots of open tree skiing, it takes a lot of snow to fill in cannon's trees. but i'll take cannon on a pow day over jay, pow being equal and the base being filled in.
post #55 of 55

historic prices of skiing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Lift ticket prices haven't gone up anywhere near the costs of almost every other item you could purchase. What did a day pass at KMart cost in 1986? I'm guessing $45. What was the average cost of a home in 1986? I'm guessing $100,000. What was the average family income in 1986? $40,000? Now probably $80,000. Skiing doesn't 'cost more' now.
you piqued my interest. I was wondering in relative dollars was skiing always as expensive as it is today. I was able to dig up some historical prices from skiing at stowe.

1974 - full day adult ticket $12 (worth $60.34 in today's dollars)
1980 - full day adult lift ticket $19 (worth $45.04 in today's dollars)
1993 - full day adult lift ticket $42 (worth $56.77 in today's dollars)
2006 - full day adult lift ticket $78 (worth $78 in today's dollars)

I used Purchasing Power of Money in the United States to calculate. The last date the calculator went to was 2005. So, 2005 is what I mean by today's dollars.
http://www.measuringworth.com/calcul...rus/result.php

my verdict - skiing has always been expensive but has reached new heights.
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