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Father defends his daughter - Page 4

post #91 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
Despite liability codes, ski areas have a duty to prevent unsafe conditions and they are responsible for their own negligence in this regard. Getting hit by a drunk is not a natural hazzard that is assumed by the skier. This is the same as if a lift malfunctions and hurts people. Both are things that the ski area is supposed to control. As doct has noted, the ski area can be held liable under a negligence standard if they do not properly enforce the rules.

In my experience, accidents of this type have been growing over the last several years. Ski areas do not seem to be doing enough to control things like intoxicated skiers and boarders, or to enforce speed laws in slow areas. Unfortunately, it seem like someone will have to be seriously maimed or killed for ski resorts take this problem seriously, probably after one of them loses a big law suit.
This is one reason why I have been privately boycotting DMR/Purgatory on weekends for the last three years, 45 minutes away and taking my kid 2 hrs away to Telluride. I felt like all I was doing skiing with him, was running interference and had too many close calls. I'm also trying to wean him of ski areas in general and take him touring and backcountry skiing.

BTW it's not just because of snowboarders, but also selfish and reckless skiers as well. It just seems more dangerous than previously or I've become over sensitized with a kid and his friends than when is was just me I had to look out for.
post #92 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
Internet forums have ruined my once impecable spelling.
You mean "impeccable," right?
post #93 of 107

A couple more points

First it should be noted that the boarder showed extreme regret for his role in the incident, to the point where he felt that he deserved to be punished. This combination is usually indicative of a potential pattern of substance abuse and should be taken into account in any sentencing hearing. It would be interesting to find out if the boarder has a history of related problems like dui's etc. In any event, it should be a wake up call for him to seek assistance on his own.

Finally, since the father's punches apparently had little or no adverse effect on the boarder, this would severely limit the types of damages that the boarder could obtain in a civil suit.
post #94 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
BTW it's not just because of snowboarders, but also selfish and reckless skiers as well. It just seems more dangerous than previously or I've become over sensitized with a kid and his friends than when is was just me I had to look out for.
I agree that skiers are an issue as well. It's not just that many people are unaware of code, but that they tend to blame the intermediate/younger skier for the collision. Last time I checked, it is the responsibility of the uphill/overtaking skier/boarder to avoid the collision. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people who know the rules anymore.

I still remember a fifty something woman in a purple bogner suit at Breck who recklessly cruised over my daughter's ski tips a several years ago causing a fall, and had the temerity to swear at my daughter in the process while continuing her run. In my book, if you are really an advanced skier it is your duty to manage the run to avoid collisions at all times. If you are close enough to an intermediate for there to be any risk of a collision, then you are not skiing under control and should have your ticket punched.

I think this stuff really tends to ruin the positive resort experience that results in repeat visits. The ski patrol at most resorts has the duty to take stuff like this more seriously than they have been. If they do not, it is my expectation that more fistfights will be the result, which in my book is really a black-eye for the resort.
post #95 of 107
My parents let me ski anywhere all by myself when I was 8. There was never any good reason to fear for my safety. If this crap continues, future kids aren't going to be able to experience that sort of freedom.

A few years ago on a very busy day at Killington I almost got punched in the face. I was cruising at a moderate speed near KBL making a left turn as some woman making a sketchy right turn started closing in on me. She got about 15 feet away from me and screamed then fell over. There was no way we were going to collide; I was in control and had plenty of room, and she was the one closing in on me from skier right anyway.

So as I wait at the bottom for my group I see her telling Mr. Jersey that some guy ran into her. Mr. Jersey was visibly angry and started towards me. I think to myself...gee, I should really go straighten this loon out or get punched and sue the guy, but I was really enjoying the skiing so I just jumped on the lift. So some dude in Jersey thinks I ran into his woman because she is a loon. Its thoroughly dumb crap like this that really convinces me that if I had a kid I'd take them to the least popular place I could find.

One reason I love NM is that the level of asinine stuff like this is so much lower.
post #96 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman View Post
......
One reason I love NM is that the level of asinine stuff like this is so much lower.
Come on skiman, you just been up there for less that a year.....wait till those Okies, Texans and Cajuns invade your area!!!!! I hope you can get on as an instructor and use race skis, that way you can cut in on single lift lines for a quick get-away!
post #97 of 107
LOL, they all seem like a lot less invasive/angry/aggro species than the tri-stater.

But indeed, maybe this year I'll have some Texan try and punch me in the face. Luckily I can outrun most of them as long as I've got some hill left.
post #98 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman View Post
LOL, they all seem like a lot less invasive/angry/aggro species than the tri-stater.

But indeed, maybe this year I'll have some Texan try and punch me in the face. Luckily I can outrun most of them as long as I've got some hill left.
Watch out buddy, after Superbowl I've rode the lifts a few times in Taos with Troy Aikman and a coupla Dallas football players. Don't let em catch ya!!!!
post #99 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
My bottom line here is that ski areas need to get more involved in enforcing penalties for substance abuse and excessive speed on the slopes. Skiing is inherently a dangerous sport, and we don't need to make it more dangerous. If you have more than a couple of drinks you should call it a day. And if you don't, the resort should do it for you.
This is where I'm confused...

I'm a patroller. You're saying We should enforce "speed". How fast? How are we going to enforce it? I know some people who call patrollers "rent-a-cop". We're there to prevent what we can. But, much like cops are tocar accidents, we can't prevent everything. What do you want us to do? Should we stand by the bar with breathalyzers??? We can't. Do you want the police standing at the bar doing that to you?
We're there to help injured skiers, not tell everyone to maintain 15mph or slower! On our mtn. we put up 4 "SLOW" signs on a lower trail where 3 others merge into it and the lift is. Spme people try to use them as gates to carve around going faster...

It seems like a lot of people want the patrol to ENFORCE rules when they talk online. But if we do it to THEM when they're skiing, then they bitch at us, the management, and on here.

This isn't directly at viking. I hope you all understand where I'm coming from.
Aceman
post #100 of 107
Ski Patrol isn't law enforcement, and it really shouldn't try to be.
post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
This is where I'm confused...

I'm a patroller. You're saying We should enforce "speed". How fast? How are we going to enforce it? I know some people who call patrollers "rent-a-cop". We're there to prevent what we can. But, much like cops are tocar accidents, we can't prevent everything. What do you want us to do?

It seems like a lot of people want the patrol to ENFORCE rules when they talk online. But if we do it to THEM when they're skiing, then they bitch at us, the management, and on here.

This isn't directly at viking. I hope you all understand where I'm coming from.
Aceman
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman View Post
Ski Patrol isn't law enforcement, and it really shouldn't try to be.
I take none of this personally, and if you read my post carefully you will note that the amibiguity of resort's response to these issues is clear. They all want to sell more alcohol and they don't want to piss off customers who are skiing recklessly. Most patrollers are ski area employees, and have to act in accord with their resort's policies.

Unfortunately, the only thing you can do to a person who is creating a hazard on the slopes is to punch their ticket. If you read my whole analysis carefully, intoxicated skiers and out of control skies are not "natural hazards" that are typically removed under most states liability codes. In other words, the ski area bears some responsiblity to enforce the rules. If it does not, the ski area is negligent and could be liable for the harms caused.

I don't know who else should enforce rules by pulling people's tickets at an area if not the patrol. If you have any other suggestions I am all ears.

Apparently law enforcement was called in in this case. Both the father and the boarder in this case were charged with 3d degree assault, which is a criminal charge in the State of Colorado. If you hit someone while drunk and kill them, at a minimum you would be guilty of manslaughter. So it is not entirely out of the question that you could be convicted of criminal offenses while on skis.

In closing I will note that for a long time boating was similarly free from law enforcement supervision. This has changed big time in many jurisdictions. In Jersey you now have to take a boating saftey course if you want to operate anything larger than a canoe. And there are criminal penalties if you are driving a boat while intoxicated. Being a drunk is really not an excuse for criminal conduct in most states any more, drunk drivers are doing jail time. And most major league ball parks have stopped selling alcohol after the 7th inning. Is someone going to have to die for ski resorts to take their responsibility seriously here?

By the way, I always listen to and respect the patrol anywhere I am skiing. I'm not saying that you need to arrest anyone, but if people are not following the rules, I think that I, and many others on this site, would applaud if you pull people's tickets.
post #102 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
Internet forums have ruined my once impecable spelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier View Post
You mean "impeccable," right?
Oh, the irony.

Back on topic, I probably would've done the same if I were in the father's position. Especially since the snowboarder tried to leave before the situation was rectified.
post #103 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
I don't know who else should enforce rules by pulling people's tickets at an area if not the patrol. If you have any other suggestions I am all ears.
An agent of the resort, whether they take the form of the general manager or a liftie. I personally think it is very sad that some ski resorts have rule enforcement demands that call for more than the capabilities of the employees already all over the mountain. Pulling a ticket is not a law enforcement action. The resort can ask you to leave at any time. When you begin to talk about specific standards for intoxication, speed, etc. you find issues that an employee can't handle. The resorts should continue to ask people behaving in grossly unsafe ways to leave. That will include people who have drank too much.
Quote:
So it is not entirely out of the question that you could be convicted of criminal offenses while on skis.
No, but law enforcement should be kept as far away from the skiing as possible. I prefer the freedom skiing entails to the shackles some would have put upon it, even if this may increase my exposure to certain risks.
Quote:
Is someone going to have to die for ski resorts to take their responsibility seriously here?
It has purportedly already happened, and people have already done jail time for it.
Quote:
By the way, I always listen to and respect the patrol anywhere I am skiing. I'm not saying that you need to arrest anyone, but if people are not following the rules, I think that I, and many others on this site, would applaud if you pull people's tickets.
Patrol has been pulling people's tickets forever, apparently with good effect as skiing is a very safe sport. Ultimately, the authority lies with the operator. I've had my season pass pulled by a patroller without warning for violating a state law...he apparently was a chair behind me and I didn't have my safety bar down. I would have put it down if he had asked. A quick trip to the office resolved the matter. Patrol is there to provide services and maintain safety. They are not there to prevent me from falling off a chairlift or to harass me for having a beer with lunch.

The bar, on the other hand, is required by state law in most places not to intoxicate anyone, or at least not to serve anyone that is intoxicated. Yeah, right.

All the laws and law enforcement in the US have had very limited success in keeping drunks from killing people with cars. I find it unrealistic to think that there is much a resort can do about this that they don't already; as in kick out people that are being idiots.
post #104 of 107
Someone please show me where the news article stated that the father was skiing ONLY with his daughter. I must have missed that.

How do we know that Mom wasn't taking care of the girl while Dad went for the boarder? How do we know who else was skiing with them?
They could have been skiing with 9 other family members for all we know.
post #105 of 107
the very same thing happened this weekend at a resort in Colorado, but the police were not involved. A snowboarder accidentally hit a young girl. The snowboarder tried to help the young girl, and the father attempted to hit the snowboarder, only being stopped just in the nick of time by an observant instructor.

The kicker? The snowboarder was a 50 year old grandmother, and both the skier and the snowboarder were on a beginner only slope. When is it right and when is it wrong?
post #106 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
... Getting hit by a drunk is not a natural hazzard that is assumed by the skier. This is the same as if a lift malfunctions and hurts people. Both are things that the ski area is supposed to control. As doct has noted, the ski area can be held liable under a negligence standard if they do not properly enforce the rules.
...
This reasoning is pretty extreme. A ski area is liable for any drunk's actions because they didn't "properly enforce the rules"??

Why just ski resorts? Is your city goverment liable every time a drunk crashes his car? (law against drunk driving should have been enforced). Are the police liable because someone commits a crime with an illegal gun? (criminal should have been arrested for his illegal gun possesion). Is the state liable because a convected felon commits a crime while on parole? (he was violating parole if he was planning a crime).

The drunk person is the guilty party, and is the one to be held responsible.
post #107 of 107
Somebody is reckless and runs over my daughter and they will get an ass whipping. End of story.
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