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Father defends his daughter - Page 2

post #31 of 107
Way to go DAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #32 of 107
WTF the snowboarder was wrong but what the dad did was assult, it wasnt defense it was revenge which is illegal. The dad should be charged, the snowboarder should be charged with skiing while drunk and reckless skiing, not assault. It seems to me that the boarder might have stuck around and waited for patrol like he was supposed too if the dad had not come out swinging. I think people need to remember that "Two wrongs dont make a right".

As for the person whose daughter got hit and then sued the resort, I think you are an *******. I have never met you and you could be a nice guy for all I know but suing the resort because some snowboarder's board hit your kid is compleately messed up. I know many resorts that I like to ski at that would fold if they encountered a lawsuit like that. It's not the resorts fault what happend and while I feel sorry for what happend to your daughter I just have to say that going after the resort, not the person resposible is plain ****ed up.
post #33 of 107
Quote:
but suing the resort because some snowboarder's board hit your kid is compleately messed up. I know many resorts that I like to ski at that would fold if they encountered a lawsuit like that. It's not the resorts fault what happend and while I feel sorry for what happend to your daughter I just have to say that going after the resort, not the person resposible is plain ****ed up.
A resort has a duty to remove people who endanger others. Taking off a snowboard and throwing it down the slope can kill someone. Refusing to clip that riders ticket is defacto acceptance of such behavior, and that is why they were liable.
post #34 of 107
50 yrs ago---this would not have made news. Of course that is my opinion, I really would not know since I am a mere 43. After taking his 2-3 socks to the jaw---the boy would have apologized and all would be good. Today---we'll bog down the courts with 2 criminal trials and perhaps a civil trial. Hopefully the DA will not press charges against anyone since justice was meaded out and everyone is licking their wounds. I just feel bad for the young girl. To that I say----Dad, hold him steady while your daughter tests her boots against his Christmas ornaments.
post #35 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Shortround View Post
A resort has a duty to remove people who endanger others. Taking off a snowboard and throwing it down the slope can kill someone. Refusing to clip that riders ticket is defacto acceptance of such behavior, and that is why they were liable.
The mere fact that throwing a board could kill people makes it an automaticly a matter for the cops. By buying a lift ticket you supposedly acknowladge that skiing is inherently dangerous in natrual and unnatrual ways and hold harmless the ski resort for any and all damages.
post #36 of 107
two wrongs don't make a right, but they can make the problem go away.
Long story short; a guy stalked my sister in H.S. He worked next to her in another store. he was married. kept asking my sister out after work, using some rowdy language. Wouldn't stop "running into" her all around town; restaurants, movie theaters, etc... (Really creepy) The police didn't do anything. later it just stopped and we all forgot about it.
Maybe 10 years later, at dinner, after my sister was married, the topic got brought up again and I saw my mom stare down my dad with a very stern eye. I asked; what's up? and my dad just said, "some things you don't F*** with. My army buddies blanket-partied him."
never got brought up again. But that was the only time I saw that look in my dad's eye and I will forever know, don't mess with dudes' daughters.
if you make a mistake, bow down boy, or get the piss kicked out of ya.

sounds to me like the father in the article was trying to get the guy to pay for his mistake, instead of run off. that's not necessarily revenge.
post #37 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragin' cajun' View Post
Someone explain to me what I'm missing and not understanding here. A little girl, 8 years old, is run over by a drunken boarder. Her father hits this bum. And he is wrong????????:
Yes, the father is wrong...period, end of story.

In our civilized society, we are supposed to be able to climb above the animalistic, jungle-based instincts that led us from the muck, to the swamp, to the land and then to eventually walk upright. A thinking human being has to be able to overcome their base instincts or else we'd have pure anarchy.

So, yep, darned right...the father's wrong.

Let's also consider this, his 8 year old daughter just got shredded by a complete and total ass of an irresponsible boarder. That this guy's even allowed on slope is a mystery, but that's a completely other discussion. So, isn't the guys first reponsibility to his daughter to make sure she's ok? Doesn't he call to the boarder, to passersby, to the patrol, to anyone to render assistance for her? Isn't that what a responsible father needs to be doing at this point? Or, just because it "feels good to rail on the guy", we applaud Dear Old Dad for 'evening the score' and taking his and rightfully all of our rage out on this terd of a human being.

No, dad's wrong in this one and for many, many reasons.

Does Colorado have a conceal/carry law? Would this have ended more tragically had the dad shot the offending boarder? Would any of us have blamed him? Would he be any less "wrong"?

Believe me, I'm no mamby-pamby when it comes to this type of stuff, you should have heard me when my daughter was intentially thrown at during a softball game this past summer...ballistic? You betcha. Violent, not a chance.

My first responsibility was to my daughter;
Then, to my wife who was apopleptic;
Then, to the umpire who was kicking the pitcher out of the game;
And then, back to my daughter. Should I have gone up and punched the kid, the parents, the coach, the ???

Absolutely not, I was tempted, believe me, but we can't have this in a civilized society, period.

Look around the world at society's that permit this and tell me that's what you want. Not a chance; keep your hands to yourself and keep your children protected.

Yup, Dad was wrong and he deservers everything coming to him.
post #38 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpmommy View Post
Don,

Please go back and read my post. My child WAS HIT, sorry but my first reaction was NOT to violently protect my child. It was to make sure my child was ok, seeing your child bleeding (no matter how little blood there is) is scary . That was FIRST AND FORMOST in my mind. After I made sure my child was ok, yeah I was pissed. Really pissed, but did I hit the other person. NO. Would I if they tried to leave? Don't know the person didn't try to leave, but most likely not. When I was hit as a kid would my mom hit the guy? Nope, but there would of been a whole lot of yelling involved. (and the guy might of wished my mom hit him instead).....
With all due respect, the reaction of a mother and that of a father are most often going to differ in such a situation.

As for the dad ... well, no, you can't condone it, but ... tacitly perhaps you can.

It's nice to teach your kids the ideal, but you also have to teach them reality. And reality is, If you mess with someone's 8-y-o daughter, you'll probably pay for it sooner than later. That's just how it is.
post #39 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by airshowguy View Post
...
Does Colorado have a conceal/carry law? Would this have ended more tragically had the dad shot the offending boarder? Would any of us have blamed him? Would he be any less "wrong"?....
Isn't that kind of a huge leap there? No one said the guy should be shot. The dad didn't beat the crap out of the boarder ... he punched him twice, and obviously not hard enough to prevent the guy from leaving the scene.
post #40 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
With all due respect, the reaction of a mother and that of a father are most often going to differ in such a situation.
With all due respect, have you ever been in such a situation? I have. Twice last season -- once with one of my then-five-year-old sons, once with my then-eight-year-old daughter. Both times, my temper flared up and I had seriously violent thoughts. But both times, I went to my kid instead, and by the time I was sure they were okay, I'd cooled down enough to use words rather than fists.

And I'd question the competence of any parent who went after the offender instead of tending to their kid.
post #41 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
How it's handled by the offender does make a difference.
...all the difference in the world.

Jump up, offer aid, apologize, be contrite= avoid ass whippin

Ride away, act smug, grin and make light of it= ass whippin

As a Dad, this logic makes perfect sense.
post #42 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragin' cajun' View Post
Someone explain to me what I'm missing and not understanding here. A little girl, 8 years old, is run over by a drunken boarder. Her father hits this bum. And he is wrong????????:
Explain to me how that was at all what I said. You're pulling things out of thin air here man.

EDIT: I do happen to think he could have acted better though, so good guess. And to everyone else, especially the people who have kids, what does hitting the guy acomplish? I don't see how what he "deserves" should have anything to do with it. Granted, I have been known to get angry sometimes, just like everyone else, and in certain circumstances, I am capable of violence, but I would think that the fact that you have children would make you NOT want to hit the guy. You really want to teach your kids that its good to hit people? I don't think him hitting the guy was "wrong", I might have done the same thing, if in that situation, but I don't get why so many people here (thinking with clear heads) seem to just want to hurt someone else.

I think kids know that, if it is self defense, it is ok to hurt someone. This wasn't self defense though. Do you guys really want to teach your kids that you care more about getting vengance than you actually do about your kids?


I guess once you have kids though, you care only about your family, no one else.
post #43 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by airshowguy View Post

Believe me, I'm no mamby-pamby when it comes to this type of stuff, you should have heard me when my daughter was intentially thrown at during a softball game this past summer...ballistic? You betcha. Violent, not a chance.

My first responsibility was to my daughter;
Then, to my wife who was apopleptic;
Then, to the umpire who was kicking the pitcher out of the game;
And then, back to my daughter. Should I have gone up and punched the kid, the parents, the coach, the ???

Absolutely not, I was tempted, believe me, but we can't have this in a civilized society, period.

Look around the world at society's that permit this and tell me that's what you want. Not a chance; keep your hands to yourself and keep your children protected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

It's nice to teach your kids the ideal, but you also have to teach them reality. And reality is, If you mess with someone's 8-y-o daughter, you'll probably pay for it sooner than later. That's just how it is.
Segbrowns response is going to teach his kids that it is ok to do whatever you want, as long as you can justify it somehow.

Airshowguy's response is going to teach his kids that, yes, people do get what is coming to them, but as a responsible member of society, we can't decide what that is on our own.

If we expect the police to protect us from killers etc, it is hypocritical to break the law when, in your subjective, biased opinion, it is "deserved"

By the way, that snowboarder got a few bad charges from this, its not like he's getting off scot free.
post #44 of 107
Segbrown-

I understand what your saying. I know my dad would react completely different then my mom. But would he of reacted with his fists? No, and I can say that because he's the one who raised me.

But... I'm a single mom. And I don't know a more protective parent then a single parent (be it single mom or single dad).

I think it just really sucks for this little girl. I hope she's ok, and continues to ski. It would be horrible if this incident stopped her from doing this wonderful sport.
post #45 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
Segbrowns response is going to teach his kids that it is ok to do whatever you want, as long as you can justify it somehow.
....
That's not what I said.

If you go into the 'hood and start yelling the n-word at people, many times you're going to get your ass beat. Is it "right"? No. Is it likely? Yes.

I don't mean you should hit someone in front of your kid in order to teach them that -- maybe that didn't come across right. I already said you can't condone that.

By tacit approval, I mean on a personal level, not legal. The dad should pay for what he did -- which didn't seem like all that much. So he goes to court, gets a slap on the wrist, pays his debt to society, and frankly probably thinks it's all worth it in the end. I don't think it's going to lead to the downfall of civilization. And I won't think any less of him. Would I think MORE of him had he handled it better? Sure. Do I admire those of you who acted calmly? Sure. Do I understand Vail dad's reaction? Sure.

We'll never rid the world of violence ... that's what I mean by accepting reality. It doesn't mean violence is right. But sometimes it IS just. Yes, that's a mixed message. The world is a messy place.
post #46 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

I don't mean you should hit someone in front of your kid in order to teach them that -- maybe that didn't come across right. I already said you can't condone that.
Ok, I know thats not what you said, but that was my point. Kids learn more from thier parent's actions than from thier statements. You can tell your kid whatever you want, but they will learn from what you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
By tacit approval, I mean on a personal level, not legal. The dad should pay for what he did -- which didn't seem like all that much. So he goes to court, gets a slap on the wrist, pays his debt to society, and frankly probably thinks it's all worth it in the end. I don't think it's going to lead to the downfall of civilization. And I won't think any less of him. Would I think MORE of him had he handled it better? Sure. Do I admire those of you who acted calmly? Sure. Do I understand Vail dad's reaction? Sure.

We'll never rid the world of violence ... that's what I mean by accepting reality. It doesn't mean violence is right. But sometimes it IS just. Yes, that's a mixed message. The world is a messy place.
Ok, I know, you can't rid the world of violence, but why add to it?

Someone tell me this, what good does it do to hit someone that ran into your kid? What does it accomplish?

It makes you feel better, because you couldn't protect your kid, and were angry at yourself, as much as them.

If I'm wrong, then someone give me another answer. What does it accomplish?
post #47 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinedad View Post
With all due respect, have you ever been in such a situation? I have. Twice last season -- once with one of my then-five-year-old sons, once with my then-eight-year-old daughter. Both times, my temper flared up and I had seriously violent thoughts. But both times, I went to my kid instead, and by the time I was sure they were okay, I'd cooled down enough to use words rather than fists.

And I'd question the competence of any parent who went after the offender instead of tending to their kid.
Well, we don't know exactly what happened. It doesn't have to be either/or. All situations are a little different ... there might have been someone attending the child already, while the boarder tried to leave. Dad might have been able to see that she was okay before he went after boarder. So I won't jump to the conclusion that he was negligent.

I've been in similar situations ... I've seen my mom hit three times, and I saw how my very nonviolent dad reacted -- not very nonviolently. No fists, though, and I wasn't condoning fists. I know how my husband would react, and it might involve fists, depending on the incident.

THe worst one I was a part of was a boarder crashing into a crowd of adults, taking one out and knocking him unconscious and breaking his collarbone. The boarder tried to escape, but two of our party chased him down and had to physically restrain him until patrol came. They didn't have to throw punches, but I'm sure they would have if the guy had continued resisting.

Would they have been wrong?
post #48 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post

Someone tell me this, what good does it do to hit someone that ran into your kid? What does it accomplish?

If I'm wrong, then someone give me another answer. What does it accomplish?
it wakes people up. makes them realize there are consequences for misbehaving, just ones or not. I'm willing to bet that kid will never run into another again...(just like you'll never use the N-word in public) I say smack him until his slacker attitude subsides.
Here in japan, we just beat the students when they misbehave. You should see what I do when they don't bow at my entrance. little devils...

(ok, horrible joke in a failed attempt to lighten the mood in a strong debate.)
However, beating people to a pulp for using the N-word in public sure put a taboo on that, eh?
post #49 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
...Ok, I know, you can't rid the world of violence, but why add to it?

Someone tell me this, what good does it do to hit someone that ran into your kid? What does it accomplish?

It makes you feel better, because you couldn't protect your kid, and were angry at yourself, as much as them.

If I'm wrong, then someone give me another answer. What does it accomplish?
We add to it because we're human and it's our nature. It isn't that we SHOULD; it's that we are. Some on this thread have had similar experiences where they responded in a calm manner -- but even they said their first instinct was a violent one.

Why is that? I guess that would lead into what it accomplishes, and gets you back to survival skills buried deep in our genetic makeup. Why do we want to hit people we're mad at? We want them to feel pain, too, I guess. Revenge. Deter others from doing the same thing.

And that's what brings me back to the "reality" part -- if all these idiots who are hitting people on the slopes were worried that they would face painful consequences for doing so, maybe they'd go a little slower. Patrol and law enforcement do get involved in some of the collisions, but not all of them. They just don't have the manpower. How many people have been hit by kids who laugh and ski/ride away? I've read tons of accounts on epic.

I don't know the answer, but the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. Whatever is being done isn't working.
post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
And that's what brings me back to the "reality" part -- if all these idiots who are hitting people on the slopes were worried that they would face painful consequences for doing so, maybe they'd go a little slower. Patrol and law enforcement do get involved in some of the collisions, but not all of them. They just don't have the manpower. How many people have been hit by kids who laugh and ski/ride away? I've read tons of accounts on epic.

I don't know the answer, but the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. Whatever is being done isn't working.
Beat 'em. like I said; It worked for the N-word.
post #51 of 107
I am reminded of the story about a framer trying to get a stubborn mule into a trailer to take him to market. The farmer was cussing a blue streak when the reverend came by. "Brother, why are you using the Lord's name in vain?" asked the Reverend. "Tell me Reverend, how did Noah get these stubborn animals into the ark?" asked the Farmer. "With patience and kindness and positive reinforcement and rewards for good behavior." answered the Reverend. The farmer asks "Would you mind giving me a demonstration?" The reverend agrees, reaches into the trailer and grabs a 2X4. Breaks the 2X4 over the Mules head. The farmer, Shocked, yells "What happened to the patience, kindness, and positive stuff?" To which the Reverend replies, "Yeah, that stuff all works, but first, you have to get their attention!"
post #52 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
We'll never rid the world of violence ... that's what I mean by accepting reality . . . The world is a messy place.
Seg, I know you're a thoughtful and caring person. I've read some of the things you've written on Epic and have admired your thoughts.

And, in this instance, you're just plain wrong.

If you re-read your sentence, from above, I could NOT disagree more stringently:
  • There is NO eventuality that the world is violent.
  • There is NO eventualy that you have to accept the "reality" of a violent world.
  • There is NO eventuality that the world is a messy place, unless you (and tens-of-millions of others) keep saying it is.
  • There is NO reason VailDad did this other than his inability to control his temper and take the right path (of non-violence and tending to his daughter).
  • And...there is NO reason a civil society has to act the way VailDad did or more importantly, that other members of that society should "understand" his actions.
Simply put, there is no reason and I mean NONE, that we should approve, agree with or even "understand" what VD did.

I'm not John Lennon or Rodney King, but I do think in many ways they got it right...Can't We All Just Get Along?

VailDad was wrong. He should have completely taken care of his daughter; exclusively. There was no reason to go after the boarder because that young man didn't matter. Now, VD's daughter has to live with the horrible vision of her Dad watching her get plowed over, live with the vision of the man she loves and admires getting wiggy on some guy and live with the horrible conclusion that she had something to do with all of that. 8-year old girls get screwed up for life, for far less than that. Can you imagine how scared, terrified and horified she must have been, first knowing that she's "bleeding to death" (my words, not hers and maybe not even the situation but 8 year olds are either OK, or they're bleeding to death) and then watching her Dad's anger boil over into violence? You think she's going to live with that for the rest of her life - count on it!?!

These are life-changing moments and in her most significant time of need, VailDad decided to mete-out-his-brand-of-justice, instead of truly caring for his daughter and letting the "authorities" and other civil citizens take care of DrunkenBoarder.

No, it's not an eventuality...it's not "the way it is" just because you keep saying so. We could change all of this, seriously...on a big scale...we could change this.

We don't have to accept the world as it "is", just because we can't figure out a way to change that.

There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?- Bobby Kennedy as borrowed from George Bernard Shaw
post #53 of 107

Old Rules

The board of education at my "public" High School approved the teachers to hit and paddle their students. Thats right even seniors in High School got paddled but only once per day. The feeling was ( or in this case lack of feeling) you got hit so hard you wouldn't feel the rest so it was a waste of time to hit any student more than once per day. Seriously. For safety sake students were asked to bend over and grab onto the chalk tray and do not move or you could get hurt. Yup them were the good old days.

Today nobody can hit anyone but the NY City police can shoot 50 rounds into a group of unarmed men. I guess its all for the best.

I live by the old rules. You run into someone in my family and your getting wacked.
post #54 of 107
Stache


Take care of your child first , that's your MOST important job.
Then RESTRAIN the drunken prick with great VIGAH ,generating a high decibel level . Don't be foolish enough to punch the prick even tho he RICHLY deserves it.

If you have a cell , call the authorities yourself or ask other skiers to get the damn patrol .
post #55 of 107
[quote=MAGGOT;610473]
Quote:
It makes you feel better, because you couldn't protect your kid, and were angry at yourself, as much as them.
Hold on Maggot, the father/daughter were out on a run enjoying themselves skiing. I hope that every time I ski with my grandkids it would not be necessary to overly protect them from idiots on the slope. That's not why we're out there. There should be no anger felt by daddy for not protecting his daughter. The anger is totally focused to wards the offending idiot.

Quote:
If I'm wrong, then someone give me another answer. What does it accomplish?
I think it breaks down to one very simple need and that is JUSTICE. And immediate Justice at that. Seeing your 8 year old daughter being slammed in the air, flying 6 feet up, crashing into the slope will induce a reaction in a parent that demands instantaneous retribution, accountability and responsibility for this action taken on their children. If any part of this is missing, justice is not served therefore matters are taken on by the parents.
post #56 of 107
Thread Starter 
The snowboarder tells his side of the story.

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?O...7-c589c01ca7bf
post #57 of 107
Unless its in self defense its not OK to hit people. Period. I can see why people would want to hit the kid- and Im not saying that I wouldnt...but I would be wrong.
Plus, reverse the situation- say youre coming down the mountain and a kid just darts in front of you. They are small and go about 90 mph. Maybe you clip the kid but in reality theres not much you could do. Even if youre in the wrong- maybe you should have been going slower, should have seen the kid, etc- and you get cracked by a father, then what? All out brawl? Where does it end? Do you have a right to hit the father because he hit you?
I think the violence is just wrong in general.
post #58 of 107
Thread Starter 
The snowboarder sounds remorseful in the 9 news interview. He admitted riding too fast for limited sight.

If he attempted to flee the scene the father had every right to detain him.

No question a sad story and more people need to understand the consequences if they break the Skier Safety Act.
post #59 of 107
A very hard situation to judge. As the father of a teen daughter, I know well the enormous surge of adreneline that rushes through a man's body when his little girl has been hurt or threatened by another. I had an experience with my son 12 years ago when he was 9 and assaulted by a couple of teen thugs a block away. I have to say my immediate and uncontrollable reaction was to run to his defense, which I successfully and somewhat violently did (given the attackers' aggression). Luckily, no one was seriously hurt and the thugs seemed to have learned a lesson--and gave me a wide berth for years afterward, while my son relates the now mythical story to his friends. Am I proud of it? Not really. Would I do it again? Absolutely. I advocate peace in all matters, but not at all costs. Managing the innate urge to protect one's child is difficult--especially when the threat or harm is very real, and police officers are far out of reach.
post #60 of 107
Christopher Dunsmore's (the Snowboarder) mugshot is shown in several news outlets, e.g., Denverpost.com. Apparently, Vail Dad has a pretty weak right cross (that's a joke everyone--calm down). Dunsmore does not appear to show any physical manifestation of having been struck in the face with a fist or any other body part, which does surprise me.

I understand that Vail Dad has admitted punching Dunsmore once. I just wonder if he pulled his punch. In any event, the various posts certainly are provocative.
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