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So Who Should Ski What, When and Where - Page 3

post #61 of 73
Originally posted by CalG:

Here is the rule!
The good skiers should ski the sides of the trails within say, "oh too close" to the trees. (watch for face slappers)
No no no. Don't do that. Otherwise, how will I find fresh(er) snow close to the trees? Don't tell them. Shhhh...

post #62 of 73
Originally posted by laseranimal:
All the Moms and Dads out there, PLEASE keep the little ones off of the Blacks and more specifically OUT OF THE EXPERT TERRAIN PARKS some poor kid will be killed in an unfortunate accident.
Laseranimal - my friends 9 year old had his ski instructor last year REFUSE to go in the pipe with him because he showed her up! This kid outskis many adults easily... & from memory the resort gave him a 'scholarship' because of his pipe skills... he is on a junior development squad with kids 2 years older - because that is the youngest group they have to put him in... he takes his MUM & teaches her how to ski & will happily act as guide for any adult silly enough to ski the resort with him...
His younger sister (7) is less gung ho but more technical - but because of her small size is frequently cut off by adults - on skis she can hold her own Ok - but has just started boarding & is less 'speedy' on the board. She is NOT impressed by the 'average' adult skier she sees in her daily travels... maybe the adults should be off the black runs
post #63 of 73
Thread Starter 
There are many kids on the mountain who ski darn well better than the adults, their parents included. I am always amazed at how it is totally instinctual for a good, kid skier to avoid hitting anyone. They will just make a turn away from someone as naturally as if they were walking down the street. Those kids should just ski anywhere.

Here's a contrasting story, though. At a New England resort, last week, 2 parents took their liitle girl, who had never skied in her life, down a challenging blue trail.
It was unfortunately too challenging.
She died.

In terms of adults, sometimes I hear people say the most unbelievable things. I was on a lift line at Sunday River, and this guy was trying to talk his girlfriend into skiing White Heat, one of the steepest bump runs in the Northeast. Supposedly, when you make a turn on this trail, your shoulder is practically touching the ground. He says to his girlfriend
"Don't worry, if you get freaked out, you can do wedge turns!"

Having ended up a few times in terrain that I myself don't belong in, I am often sympathetic when I see someone who has ended up in the same predicament. I once went up to someone who was in tears at the edge of a trail, and told them it would be okay to side slip. She said:
"What's a side slip?"

I would NEVER NEVER NEVER in a million years want to impose rules as to where a person can or can't ski. That would be offensive to my strong Libertarian sentiments.

But I have found that many people do not know for themselves when they are ready to up the ante.
post #64 of 73
exactly, LM

any time someone suggests considering standards, some reflexive responses always will be, "you people want behavioral codes for everything." it doesn't matter whether the discussion is about the source of the problem and what should be the standards - the naysayers live life on a slippery slope and everything has infinite unstoppable momentum. RUBBISH!

there's a difference between analyzing a problem and potential solutions, and demanding new laws.

I haven't seen anyone except MD mention new laws or other constraints.

What does that tell us?
post #65 of 73
Although creating rules about leisure activities sounds a bit silly, I think the Germans may be on to something. Since there are so few golf courses there, they require that golfers be able to finish a round below a certain score. If successful, they are given a "permit" that allows them to play golf.

There's no way that this model could be successfully transferred to ski mountains, but I wish that U.S. golf courses would adopt it. As any golfer knows, there's nothing more infuriating than being on a public golf course behind a bunch of hackers who know nothing of the most important component of golf etiquette: PLAY FAST.
post #66 of 73
" Okay, at the risk of wasting ACs bandwidth "

3 pages later.... Defending somone else who ran into a child while wearing sunglasses in a snowstorm?
post #67 of 73
Thread Starter 
In other news, a teenager was killed at Mount Snow. It was his first time skiing, and he was on a somewhat challenging blue trail. The newspapers were quick to point out the fact that he was not wearing a helmut.

My reaction: A never ever skiing Ridge at Mount Snow? Not much a helmut could have done. Regarding the whle helmut issue, although I wear one, would'nt it be better to EDUCATE as opposed to LEGISLATE?

The kid was skiing with a CHURCH GROUP for Gods sake, pun intended! Didn't anyone think to advise him to take a lesson?

But you know, 3 pages later and a few unfortunate nasty flame wars, I realize that I'm preaching to the choir on this issue.

Awhile ago I posted a thread in the technique section about perpetual intermediates. When I take the women's ski spree at Okemo, there are women in my class who have been skiing for 10-20 years. Its worries me that they ski the same way I do, even though I have been skiing for a significantly shorter time.

When asked, many of them ski with their husbands on black trails. But their skiing style reflects something I am quick to notice. They ski with the brakes on.
Even on flat green trails.
Defensive technique can easily become a habit!
post #68 of 73
i meant the 5-6 year olds, and most of the younger skiers should not be in the terrain part without some kind of supervision. I'm a big beliver that there should be several different ability level terrain parks for different types of skiers. There also ought to be a universal set of "terrain park skiers/snowboarders code" ie do not start your run into the jump until you see the previous skier/rider clear from underneath you...Do not stop underneath a jump etc.... There was an incident this year where someone jumped right on top of a father and his daughter who were "resting" under the jump. This is a tragic case of both skiers being in the wrong that could easily been avoided if everyone was aware of terrain park etiquite. Thats my biggest problem with inexperienced people who ski the harder terrain is that they tend to stop in the blind spots on the trail which is a safety hazzard for everyone involved.

I feel like there are slow and family skiing areas on the mountain that I am respectful of. I can and always do ski in control and can pull up to avoid a skier who suddenly makes a wedge turn traverse in front of me. Its annoying but I deal with it, its when the inexperienced skier turns around and glares at me as if its my fault. I'm sorry but its a double black it isn't "easy" or "more difficult" or even "most difficult" its "experts only".
post #69 of 73
I like how they have it at Alpine Meadows: there are two terrain parks: one for grownups and teens; the other has a 4'-tall entrance gate that says, "Adults are allowed to enter only if accompanied by a child."
post #70 of 73
Originally posted by Maddog1959:
AlexG, you misunderstand my post. Mr. Whiney is the skier who wants to ski an "expert" run fast but finds the run already peopled by intermediates or beginners. Mr. Whiney then throws a tantrum, pouts, and fusses because these other people are cramping his style. In the world of Charles Schultz, Mr. Whiney would be Lucy, petulant, bossy, fussy, an all around cool person to be around. Right!!!! I just say no to whiney skiers.

My point is that most of the Mr. Whinny’s out there are not very good skiers or they would just ski the run and avoid the objects of their whining. The problem is they can't because they aren’t that good. But instead of blaming their own inferior skiing abilities, they blame the intermediate skiers for being in the way. It is the neoentitlement mentality of America, and, it frankly frustrates me.

Mr. Whiney is entitled to nothing more than the shared right to ski the mountain. If he wants more he must do something else. Be that paying dues for the Yellowstone Club or hiking for out of bounds turns.

Whining doesn’t cut it here.
Maddog / Mark:

With that I agree. I thought I must have missed something. [img]redface.gif[/img]
post #71 of 73
laseranimal, the problem with kids skiing on expert terrain is not that they do not know how to ski there (you'll be surprised how many of them do), but that they are sometimes too small to be easy to notice before it's too late (which is what happened to Bonni and not only to her. I nearly popped my shoulder trying to avoid collision with a family who had just descended into our world from a dark blue run and were having a reunion right in the center of the black trail, a couple of large moguls below the drop: there was a whiteout, and they all were dressed in very pale clothes. The kid is OK: I managed to jump over him. One year later, my shoulder still hurts.)

I think the request of parents should be something like this: PARENTS PLEASE MAKE SURE YOUR KIDS ARE WEARING HELMETS AND BRIGHT CLOTHES ON THE HILL, ESPECIALLY ON HARDER THAN BLUE TRAILS, rather than the way you formulated it.

When our kids are riding bikes or rollerblading, we want them to wear helmets and to be dressed in bright easily visible clothes. On the snow it should be even more so.
post #72 of 73
Great observation about your perpetual intermediate acquaintances who ski defensively!

I have seen this too many times. Someone will have a great level one lesson, perhaps also a productive level two class and then well-meaning skier friends will take this person up on terrain beyond his/her ability. These friends may or may not ski very well themselves but they really do not understand how to teach skiing. What happens? Fear happens and desperation leads to defensive movements. These new skiers end up skiing in the backseat, perhaps using braking, overredged, almost certainly using body rotation. They become imprinted with fear and their movements, away from the direction of their path down the hill, are what defeat their attempts to progress further. I just cringe when I see this happening, knowing just how fragile is their progress at this stage, and realizing I'm not going to be able to prevent these bad experiences. If their exposure to terrain can be kept within their skill levels and if they get good coaching for these first few days on skis, they can progress remarkably fast. Its astonishing how comfortably people can experience terrain of gradually increasing severity if their skill development precedes their exposure to challenging terrain.
Very few people seem to be fortunate enough to get this kind of experience, though. In my teaching experience, most of my teaching to middle and upper level skiers was remedial in nature, trying to undo bad habits. My fellow instructors and I often used to remark that, basically most of our students were just very experienced level twos and threes. They just had a lot of experience and a high level of "skill" performing incorrect movements on terrain beyond their comfort zone. They were placed in those level 4,5,6,7 lessons by virtue of the terrain they habitually skied although an accurate analysis of their skill development would have had them placed in a much lower level lesson. They generally lacked the correct functional movements you would expect to see after a good level two or three class. Its a very frustrating experience trying to correct basic skills in a class which believes itself to be more advanced, and it really does wreck the class for the few who really are ready to progress at that level. I'm convinced that skiing inapropriate terrain plays a significant role in retarding progress.
post #73 of 73
Getting back to the original question, who should ski what... How do you keep people off Diamond trails went they do not have the ability to ski at that level. How do you protect people from themselfs, or kids from there parents.

Okemo opened Jackson Gore this year, for thoes of us who can ski at the higher levels (7,8,and 9's), they have a sign posted, this area is for expert and advanced skiers only. You would think that sign was put there to take up space, or is it that people can't read. May be experts skiers start at level 3. How do you stop people and parents from going on the steeper trail (remember this is Okemo)when they paid for a lift ticket that is good for the whole mountain. One parent said "how can my daughter get better if I don't force her to go on harder trails".

Another level 3 skier who is in our club stated "I just wanted to see what it was like". He told that to a buddy (also in the same club) who is an ambassador who was showing a group of high level skiers the area.

We all have to pick and choose where and when we ski fast, Always keep your eye's moving and looking around you. My son and came close last Sunday on our first run, we were not moveing slow at the time. I was making short radious turns he was doing big arch's. There were only us and two other friends skiing on the trail. Like the stickers say HEAD'S UP.
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