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Austrians VS Waist Steering - Page 4

post #91 of 117
Wow,,, now there is a rare display of body control talent. Amazing the immediate response to, and execution of, what to most would having been confusing verbal directions. Fascinating watching the rapid transformation from clueless movements to smooth flowing Waist Steering skiing movements.

I'd love to get this guys on skis and see how fast I could turn him into a rock solid arcing skier.
post #92 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Now FF, you haven't been lurking around PC Master's training have you?

Thanks for asking, FF
Sounds great coach! No I haven't been able to get back over to Utah unfortunately because I very much wish to take you up on your kind offer of working with me. I wish you the best in these races and have got to say that I really admire the way you selflessly help other racers particularly those new to the game in Masters or Nastar. Sometimes racing can be kind of a closed off clique and that can be intimidating for a newbie. Helping others get interested in ski racing, helps generate interest in the sport, creates training opportunities as well as racing opportunities. It also cause folks who do it to encourage their kids to take it up which comes back around to more athletes, greater depth so more Ligetys, Kildows and so on. If I could I would nominate you for Ski Racer of the year for being so enthusiastic and helpful to others interested in racing.

- Fossil
post #93 of 117
Racer of the Year, hmmmm, I like that Thanks FF

Check out the Grand Master Fu WS demo on the last page :
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
Racer of the Year, hmmmm, I like that Thanks FF

Check out the Grand Master Fu WS demo on the last page :
Will do, I've been working on WS from the DVD but I think Rick said it is much easier to have it shown to you on the hill. I was thinking about it yesterday in SL training which is tricky since the plastic is coming at you so fast it is hard to do much thinking at all

Interesting story: way before I ever heard of Barking Bears, Nastar forum etc. I typed "modern ski racing technique" in Google trying to get a handle on current technique with the new short skis and voila! discovered your MSRT site and YouCanSki site all in one stroke! Somewhat amazing to realize that other people are there to help you if you can find them.

Now if we can just get Nastar back out in the PNW. We had it here in the 80s. You can imagine how hard it was to pull a low handicap off Olberg! In the Masters races how ever much he beat the field in a steep GS he would double, triple even quadruple the gap on a flat one. The only saving grace from complete humilation in Nastar was the mercifully short courses.

Thanks again for MSRT, the articles, equipment and all! You are a Great American!

Go Rossi, Go MSRT, kick it at Snowbasin!!!

- Fossil
post #95 of 117

I think he's got it, by george I think he's got it

Quote:
There’s no specific amount of waist/pelvic rotation I use. I just go with the flow and base my degree of waist rotation on ‘feel’ and intent of the moment. If I rotate my Pelvis more slowly I get all the structural support advantages along with a little ‘Anticipation Counter’ left over at the end of my turn. If I choose to drive that Outside Leg all the way forward (right thru transition) I find myself properly Countered (read: Hip Lead or Early Inside Half) for a strongly-edged turn entry. The more I want to Pivot the next turn entry, the less I drive my Pelvis around. -.ma
Mike, I haven't had time to play with your static exercises, will get to it tomorrow, hopefully. The quote above is consistent with WS recruitment of the core muscle systems. Just as an observation by not using progressive WS to the release (employing counter for angulation and balance management) leaves a large range of motion to power the PET. You can also use progressive WS and power the PET with a "Shake", a quick ballistic inward/outward rotation of the waist (I know you wanted to skip this with regards to your post).

Sounds good to me

Will get on those exercises and see what "shakes" out
post #96 of 117
While I spent a good deal of today instructing in the use of pelvis/hip recruitment along more classic-turn lines I still managed to sneak in a few 'test turns' to see if I could find anything resembling a 'shake' in my own current movement patterns.

Nada. No Shake or Rattle (but a buncha Rolling down there at the edges). I'll poke at it some more tomorrow and see if added exploritory time can turn anything up. If not, I'll try and insert a few variations of the Shake thing as described here and see where it gets me.

---
In the Teaser video, I see Master Fu making moves that seem very familiar to me - but his feet remain exactly in place whereas my own Outside-Foot would be sliding forward (arc'ing about that somewhat 'vertical' Inside-Leg)

For instance at 3:40 with his body stacked up directly above his Left-Leg his Right-Leg remains where it is - but in that same moment I would be driving that Right-Leg around into the finish of my turn. Is his unmoving Right-Leg a result of this being done as a *static* floor exercise?

I also notice his shoulders seem to remain in a square(ish) alignment with his pelvis throughout the overall move. Is this intentional? In my own case, my shoulders only begin such a rotational migration when my core-muscles reach a ... favored(?) state of tension ... maybe?

When zipping rapidly thru short radius turns my pelvis often rotates quickly - whipping that Outside-Ski around firmly into transition while the rest of my upper-body lags behind a bit.

Any thoughts here?

.ma
post #97 of 117
Quote:
For instance at 3:40 with his body stacked up directly above his Left-Leg his Right-Leg remains where it is - but in that same moment I would be driving that Right-Leg around into the finish of my turn. Is his unmoving Right-Leg a result of this being done as a *static* floor exercise?
Yes, unlike skis which are sliding his feet are rooted. He cannot advance his foot without stepping.

Quote:
I also notice his shoulders seem to remain in a square(ish) alignment with his pelvis throughout the overall move. Is this intentional? In my own case, my shoulders only begin such a rotational migration when my core-muscles reach a ... favored(?) state of tension ... maybe?
Go look at the slide show. You'll see me step up and hold his shoulders. In T'ai Chi the shoulders definitely follow the waist much closer than we desire in skiing. Remember, Master Fu doesn't ski and was just learning the application right there and then, actually pretty amazing.

In WS History and Principles Rick addresses the potential for students first learning WS to rotate the upper torso here;

Quote:
We then help them learn to isolate the recruitment of their core muscles by stabilizing the position of their shoulders and having them rotate they pelvis via contraction of their stomach muscles.
As we worked with Master Fu (as you can see in the slide show) he really got the static exercise come alive when he understood that in skiing we apply the force (rotary) generated by the waist down to our skis (Root) via legs flexed as in a T'ai Chi "Bowed Stance" (Functional Tension). That is when he started rolling his ankles up on large angles, especially in soft shoes.

Quote:
When zipping rapidly thru short radius turns my pelvis often rotates quickly - whipping that Outside-Ski around firmly into transition while the rest of my upper-body lags behind a bit.

Any thoughts here?
In Slalom skiing that is exactly what you want. As your lower body finishes the turn your upper body is already anticipated out and down to the inside of the new turn. Waist steering adds energy to our release and then allows our pelvis to quickly re-align as we enter the new turn. As we unwind from the counter/anticipated position WS, as you have reported, brings the outside half through the turn with the benefits you've noticed. If you stayed rotationally square throughout the turn with your upper body, especially to the release you would get too inclinated and inside ski dominant and a smooth, powerful release to the next turn would be impeded.

Some folks call separation of the upper and lower body at the end of a short radius turn "Skiing into Counter", I call it skiing into "Anticpated inclination" which is resolved just after the release and is very momentary. Also, as your pelvis rotates through the transition the natural inside hip lead (Gait Mechanics) is resolved by the beginning of inward WS which again powers your outside ski closing inside ski lead as well as allowing for enough initial inclination (proper) to get the skis out from your CMG allowing for early high edge angles. And so on.

The beauty of WS is that is can be used to create intentional counter, created or restore rotational alignment to the DOT, advance the outside ski, Power a Pivot Entry Turn, and more (as Rick runs through in the MSR.com article).

Again, it sounds to me like you are on the right track. Yes, your shoulders should lag behind as we are powering the lower body and the upper body follows to the point we start preparing for the next turn.
post #98 of 117
Quote:
While I spent a good deal of today instructing in the use of pelvis/hip recruitment along more classic-turn lines I still managed to sneak in a few 'test turns' to see if I could find anything resembling a 'shake' in my own current movement patterns.

Nada. No Shake or Rattle (but a buncha Rolling down there at the edges). I'll poke at it some more tomorrow and see if added exploritory time can turn anything up. If not, I'll try and insert a few variations of the Shake thing as described here and see where it gets me. -.ma
Here try this drill. Fairly moderate to flat slope. Ski your normal radius for the ski. Ski Arc-to-Arc, no pivot. Ski into counter and use your counter to develop your turn then WS the end phase and as you approach where you intend to place your release do a quick inward WS (if turning right, rotate your waist/pelvis right, almost like a preturn move but no preturn) but don't add much rotary down to the edged arcing skis. This is done by keeping the WS movement quick and limited in ROM, you are only using the last bit of ROM available (there's always a bit left, even when you think there isn't) Then just as quickly twist it (the waist) back the other direction right into your cross-over with simultaneous leg rotation (or with ILE, doesn't matter). Really crank the inside knee as soon as you get over. You may be surprised, fasten your seat belt You can do this on either Slalom (with really dramatic affect) or GS skis.

What can this be used for? A) A quick or hasty transition B) pulling a very tight high edge angle turn C) powering a PET or slamming into a hockey stop to avoid running over the Jibby Park guy who just came flying at a 90 Degree angle to the traffic of the slope :

Let me know if this produces anything fun.

SuperG tomorrow, then a storm, GS on Monday, Timed Slalom Tuesday through Friday then our first Master Races of the Season at Snowbasin (as FF has been mentioning), CAN'T WAIT to get through a timing light ;-)
post #99 of 117
I'm back on the planet Gary, but I think you place too much stock in what I have to contribute here. My head is still filled with the good stuff we were exploring in our division training.

Now, on to tai chi chaun and WS.

Quote:
Wow,,, now there is a rare display of body control talent. Amazing the immediate response to, and execution of, what to most would having been confusing verbal directions.
This will your big hurdle me thinks. This level of structural awareness is rare. Most peoples eyes glaze over when someone talks about various muscle tensions and recruitments.

As far as the waist shake, this is used to quickly build power and then release the power in the desired direction. This release would be expressed normally in the arms and hands as a quick strike or blow, driven by the power of the waist with no wind up needed in the shoulders and arms. The waist shake is the wind up. Even though the waist does not move a great distance, the power is produced through speed coupled with the strength of the waist muscle recruitment.

As I understand Gary's application of the shake, this quick windup and release is directed to a realignment to the new turn and the power is directed to the skis to start the new turn.

The difference between this and simple WS as I see it is the quick developement of power versus the application of deliberate waist strength down to the skis. The power of the shake comes from a short range of motion coupled with speed. The wind up is in the waist when Gary says to rotate the pelvis/waist slightly further into the turn, before releasing this new waist tension into the next turn. a different movement and recruitment than the more deliberate way that WS utilizes the strength of the waist/core muscles, to drive power down to the skis, or control alignment to the direction of travel.

Quote:
The beauty of WS is that is can be used to create intentional counter, created or restore rotational alignment to the DOT, advance the outside ski, Power a Pivot Entry Turn, and more (as Rick runs through in the MSR.com article).
The waist shake is more a way to catch a fly (quick and directed), while WS is more a way to push an opponent (slower and more deliberate). Not imply that WS is slow.
post #100 of 117
Well done RicB. I especially like this:

Quote:
The waist shake is more a way to catch a fly (quick and directed), while WS is more a way to push an opponent (slower and more deliberate). Not imply that WS is slow.
That is right on the mark. I consider the shake a more advanced move, not something we address with beginners just learning core recruitment skills. It's best introduced after some elementary waist skills have been developed.

I would describe Gary's application of the shake as he describes it here as a dynamic means of expediting CM cross over and development of a new turn beyond that which can be achieved by the skillfully use of the prior turn forces (gravity and momentum) alone. This is in contrast to the use of the shake to power a pivot during a PET (pivot entry turn).

As I've said before, basic Waist Steering (core recruitment) skills are not difficult to learn. It's quite common for the "WOW" moment to occur quite rapidly
post #101 of 117

Scallop Turn Exercise, finding your range of motion

Quote:
I'm back on the planet Gary, but I think you place too much stock in what I have to contribute here. -RicB
Yeah, sure and by the way, GREAT POST, thanks

Okay, for you folks that are starting to play with WS here's drill to try out. Its called "Scallop Turns".

1) Make long radius turns (at least 30 - 40 meters) on a gentle slope. Since you will be coming across the fall line make sure you are not in a high traffic area (obviously).

2) Start the drill with a shallow traverse in a athletic stance aligned to your DOT. No counter for this one. Keep your inside ski lead to a minimum and a slightly wider than narrower stance is best.

3) You will want to be a bit biased to the outside ski but both skis need to be tracking.

4) Make three inward WS movements (screw down) making sure you are transferring rotary force to your edged skis (roll your ankles up towards the hill as you twist your waist, functional tension). Then relax your waist back to neutral thereby relaxing your edge angle. Your radius will tighten then relax with each WS/Relaxation sequence. Remember that when your skis are edged the rotary force from your waist steer will increase the deflection of the shovel based on the degree of angle of your edges. The higher the edges the greater the affect of the WS and the quicker your radius will reduce. This exercise works best with a two footed carve but play with different inside/outside weight bias options as you develop your skill with this drill.

5) On your third WS move right into your first X-over transition. Don't worry about initial counter, just a natural cross-over getting your CMG to the inside of you new turn and taking care of your outside ski engagement is fine. Then repeat three WS tighten radius/relax WS/radius into your next transition and continue to link these into consecutive turns with 3 moves between each transition.

Remember, THIS IS NOT A GARLAND!!

The objective of this exercise is to expand your range of motion of the "Inward WS" (or square WS) and the power and articulation of both edge angle and radius through the move.

Keep your shoulders following your DOT, do not rotate towards the hill and do not keep your shoulders countered (open). Your shoulders should follow the Waist/Hip slightly but your waist, if properly isolated, will have more affect on your lower half, not your trunk. If your outside hand starts crossing your outside ski you are not doing it properly and probably powering the rotary force from you upper body. This is not desirable.

As a note on Master Fu's demonstration. The Master has unbelievable body control and range of motion. If he wanted to he could easily move his belly button as you see in the video (and that is a key thing to look for when you practice static exercises preferably in front of a mirror) and keep his shoulders completely square. In other words he can isolate his lower half from his "trunk", as he calls it. As a another note and to put this in context we spent a grand total of 19 minutes on the whole thing including exercise 1 and 2. He has never done those movements before.

Advanced Scallop Turn

Repeat steps 1 - 5 but this time intentionally increase your counter out of each transition then WS inward from counter three times, WS outward to counter after third time then WS inward and right into your transition. Link the turns. This one is a bit harder to get the timing and sequence but with practice this will awaken your full inward and outward (square/countered) range of motion.

Next (maybe) I will try and put some tactical context on where to use which (WS, Hip Set (passive inside hip lead, Gait Mechanics) to WS, Intentional Counter to WS, blends).

Lastly, WS is used to influence the transition as much as it is used to influence turn shape. Mull on that

Looking forward to some feedback
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post

Make three inward WS movements (screw down) making sure you are transferring rotary force to your edged skis (roll your ankles up towards the hill as you twist your waist, functional tension). Then relax your waist back to neutral thereby relaxing your edge angle. Your radius will tighten then relax with each WS/Relaxation sequence. Remember that when your skis are edged the rotary force from your waist steer will increase the deflection of the shovel based on the degree of angle of your edges. The higher the edges the greater the affect of the WS and the quicker your radius will reduce. This exercise works best with a two footed carve but play with different inside/outside weight bias options as you develop your skill with this drill.
8 inches of snow overnight here in the Sierras. I may sneak up mid week for a day to try this before our club league racing season starts this weekend. I've been playing around with this on the carpet, but let's just stipulate that I have a little more trouble following what you want (and making my body do it) than does Master Fu. So I need a little help/clarification.

"Three inward WS movements (screw down)"

Let's assume I'm already in a turn to the left, so have modest bent knees, a little knee angulation, and rolled ankles. As I stand on the carpet, trying to understand the movement, I am bearing my weight on the big toe edge of my right (outside) foot and the little toe edge of my left (inside) foot, and my knees are 6-8" to the left of the feet their legs are attached to. My hips and shoulders are level, and are square (not countered.) Now I put my hands on my hips, with the first finger touching the point of the hip bones for a point of reference. (So I can more easily understand what happens to my hips as opposed to the rest of my body.)

Now, as I try to move through a "screw down" WS movement, what I feel is that my right (outside) hip moves forward and down. My left (inside) hip moves slightly up and back (this seems less pronounced). As the right (outside) hip pulls forward and down, the outside knee bends more and the edge angle of the bottom of my feet increases substantially. And through the whole move, my shoulders stay pretty much exactly where they started.

Am I on the right track with that (presumably, on snow rather than carpet, the outside foot would also advance during this move), or have I once again missed the boat fairly completely?

SfDean.
post #103 of 117
Dean, Rick or need to respond to your post more fully but I quickly wanted to correct a concept before it gets misconstrued by many.

Screw Down was simply a term that used as I demonstrated the isolated twisting of the core while rolling the ankles. As we turn the waist and roll the ankles into the turn it just appears we are screwing down into the turn (the skier lowers as the CMG moves to the inside of the turn (inclinates) then angulates (either in the hip or knee or both). When I describe the confluence of movements while sliding this way students just started to do rudimentary WS movements, tipped their skis, and carved (much to my amazement). So I stuck with the term as I would show students turning of the waist and it still worked. Rick experienced the same thing.


Being very vain I must report that I've lost 30 LBS
since these pictures!! Ugh!

In the third picture I'm demonstrating squeezing the eight rib down to the hip, that's not strictly correct, but again, it got the results I wanted to I didn't mess with it. Again, just watch Master Fu's belly button and you'll see the proper recruitment of the core muscles.


The other origin of the term was in T'ai chi many of our movements are spinning around a central axis. This "spinning" creates its own "gravity", stability and power akin to when you drive a wood screw into a surface. As it spins it stops to wobble and goes in straight. Best I can explain it.



Here's a graphic (by Tommy Kirchhoff) of that concept applied to a ski turn

In reality turning the waist, especially when isolated from the upper body is more of a lateral rotary movement. Watch Master Fu's belly button and he first transfers his weight from one leg to the other and turns his waist.

So I hope this clarifies the actual movement and the origin of the term "Screw Down".

Rick or I will get back to answer your post more fully as soon as we can. Thanks Dean!!
post #104 of 117
Thanks for the quick reply post Gary--it's clear that I was pretty far afield. You explained:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post

In the third picture I'm demonstrating squeezing the eight rib down to the hip, that's not strictly correct, but again, it got the results I wanted to I didn't mess with it.
That (third picture and your explanation) I do get. Or at least I can easily recreate it: Moving the right ribs toward the left hip is an abdominal cross-crunch move.

But then you go on to say that's not strictly correct, presumbably meaning that's not quite accurate in capturing all of the WS move you want (either in the exercise or in free skiing or in the gates.)

So, trying again, assuming that picture 4 is a more descriptive illustration of the move you want. Is the WS "screw down" move you're looking for a combination of the cross crunch I've just described together with a rotation of the right hip forward and to the left? Or is it a combination of the cross crunch with a dropping of the CoM and an aiming of the belly button to the left without rotating the shoulders. (Sorry about any additional imprecision on that. It's just that belly button aiming seems to be something that's a little easier for me to feel and describe than tracking the position of the hip bones.)
post #105 of 117

Really "getting" the screw down, "turning the Waist"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfdean View Post
Thanks for the quick reply post Gary--it's clear that I was pretty far afield. You explained:



That (third picture and your explanation) I do get. Or at least I can easily recreate it: Moving the right ribs toward the left hip is an abdominal cross-crunch move.

But then you go on to say that's not strictly correct, presumbably meaning that's not quite accurate in capturing all of the WS move you want (either in the exercise or in free skiing or in the gates.)

So, trying again, assuming that picture 4 is a more descriptive illustration of the move you want. Is the WS "screw down" move you're looking for a combination of the cross crunch I've just described together with a rotation of the right hip forward and to the left? Or is it a combination of the cross crunch with a dropping of the CoM and an aiming of the belly button to the left without rotating the shoulders. (Sorry about any additional imprecision on that. It's just that belly button aiming seems to be something that's a little easier for me to feel and describe than tracking the position of the hip bones.)
Well really you are using the Serape effect to twist the hips and put the force (rotary force) to the ski through functional tension (weight bearing flexion) of the legs. The cross crunch is the misconception. Here's why.

If you simply pull your right rib towards your left hip (referencing Picture 4) you are not turning the waist and therefore not imparting rotary force to the feet/skis (and remember, because they are edged in a arc turn this doesn't steer the ski but load the shovel, right?). By cross crunching you are simply lowering your upper torso a bit and pulling the outside shoulder forward and down. Think of the waist as not just the muscles across the front of your body but also criss-crossing your back. To turn the waist you are pulling on the hip from both the front and back so your entire pelvis turns and you can do this isolating your lower half - leaving the shoulders pretty quiet.

Try this. Find a post or door jam you can stand and face. Take both hands and hold it. Feet apart then use you waist to roll your ankles up on edge. Your hands stabilize your shoulders and you should really feel which muscles groups you have "recruited" to turn your entire waist.

And, yes, you get it. Using the core muscle recruitment I am moving my right half forward and inward (turning my waist/pelvis to the left) which in turn is what rolled up my skis (along with inward flexion of the inside knee, this is the simultaneous leg rotation at play). And YES, it is a combination of the inclination/angulation (CMG moving to the inside of the turn) and that outside hip advancing that is the screw down - you've got it.

Now apply this to higher and higher skill level turns, increase edge angles, throw in a little knee angulation, inclination, IHL, Intentional Counter, Inward WS in all sorts of scenarios. And don't forget the position you will ski into at the very end of the turn, for instance, in short radius turns (anticpated inclination) then resolving that quickly to neutral and so on.

Just wanted to make sure you think of the whole spectrum of movements and flow throughout the turn to visualize how pervasive twisting the core left and right is, whether quickly or progressively. Also keep in mind that the core muscles, as Rick points out in the article, can tip the upper body forward, back as well as flex the pelvis forward (tuck the butt) and let it relax backwards.

But to answer your specific question - YES, both.

Sorry about the digression : That's why Rick is better at this than I, answers the question, quickly, concisely and doesn't fly off on tangents
post #106 of 117

Where's the Thread Author? Hey Proneax, come back in ;-)

Just taking a break from the minutia of WS and its terminology. The threads original track was whether there was any conflict between Austrian Ski Racing Technique and WS. Rick answered unequivocally and emphatically - NO! Of course he's correct. So based on the last few pages of posts (and all the minutia) consider this sequence (thanks to Ron LeMaster) of Benni Raich (who else when talking Austrian Technique template)



At least to my eye I can see WS (and other core muscle system recruitment) happening here. I see a left to right twist followed immediately by a right to left twist. I see Benni advancing his right half in from frame 4 - 6. There's more (if anyone wants to pick more stuff out).

There ain't no versus here. There's Austrian AND Waist Steering.

I'll bet they aren't speaking of it (yet) but I'm sure they are training their team to have very strong cores and even if Benni isn't thinking about it he is employing his core muscles to make this sequence and every other turn he makes.

I said in an early post that WS represented a paradigm shift (and may have subsequently explained why I said that, don't remember so here it is again). When a skier is made aware of how to "recruit" the core in their skiing it really becomes a focus of technique. From there, things happen in most skier's improvement and on many levels past simply the mechanics of making certain types of turns. It affects tactics, strategy, training, dry land training, focus, and perception.

Talking about tangents : But this is MHO after working with it for over almost 3 years now.

So Proneax, how's it coming for you? It is your thread, after all
post #107 of 117
A few comments here:

FIRST:
Excellent description of how to do scallop turns, Gary. Nice job

SECOND:
Dean, scallop turns are part of the intro to Waist Steering progression. As such, they involve a square stance that does not waver much throughout a turn. In tune with the intro progression, they are designed to teach skiers to generating power in the core, and transfer that power to the feet. If the waist/pelvis displays a noticeable rotational change in relation to the skis, there is a leak in the power transfer process.

This is where the employment of rotational tension in the hip sockets, knees and ankles (via the attached muscles) comes into play. This rotational tension keeps the pelvis relatively square to the skis, while transferring the core power being generated down to the feet to tip the skis, hyper engage the tips, and power the outside foot forward through the arc. The more power transferred, the sharper the turn.

THIRD:
Gary, this is an excellent montage for showing advanced Waist Steering skill being used on the world cup.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/slides/raich-aare-2006-gs-2-ppt.jpg


I will describe the WS'ing applications being used in the montage.

IMAGE 1) Benni is at full counter and using pure core to foot energy transfer (via rotational tension) to hyper engage the front of the ski and power his outside ski through the arc, without changing his pelvic rotational orientation to his skis.

IMAGE 2-5) He is now using WS'ing to change his pelvis-to-skis rotational orientation. He's doing so my relaxing his rotational tension. He uses this WS'ing application to remove the counter of his previous turn, and create the initial counter for the new turn. By frame 5 initial counter is complete, and his inside hip is set.

IMAGE 6) He has stopped changing his pelvic rotational orientation (where his core points in relation to his skis) and is again transferring core power to his feet as in image 1.
post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post

Try this. Find a post or door jam you can stand and face. Take both hands and hold it. Feet apart then use you waist to roll your ankles up on edge. Your hands stabilize your shoulders and you should really feel which muscles groups you have "recruited" to turn your entire waist.

And, yes, you get it. Using the core muscle recruitment I am moving my right half forward and inward (turning my waist/pelvis to the left) which in turn is what rolled up my skis (along with inward flexion of the inside knee, this is the simultaneous leg rotation at play). And YES, it is a combination of the inclination/angulation (CMG moving to the inside of the turn) and that outside hip advancing that is the screw down - you've got it.

Now apply this to higher and higher skill level turns, increase edge angles, throw in a little knee angulation, inclination, IHL, Intentional Counter, Inward WS in all sorts of scenarios. And don't forget the position you will ski into at the very end of the turn, for instance, in short radius turns (anticpated inclination) then resolving that quickly to neutral and so on....


But to answer your specific question - YES, both.
Well, this is infinitely cool. I definitely get the exercise, standing in the doorway and holding on to the doorjam (so my shoulders don't move.) It's great, because it doesn't really require thinking about, but seems a very natural way to crank up the edge angle--just a twist and there's a resulting slight lowering and right hip forward and down really creates a substantial edge angle for a left turn. What's wild about this is that I can accomplish that same edge angle (still in the doorway) from an opposite move of exaggerated counter. And, keying on Rick post about the Raich progression, in thinking about using the same WS move from an initial countered position, I can actually do it (in the safety of my home door jam.) I can go from generating a big edge angle for a left turn through exaggerated counter to using the WS move to continue that big edge angle as I move to a position of using no counter.


Things are looking possible for sneaking up to the hill on Wednesday, and I am definitely going to play with this.

SfDean
post #109 of 117
I napped-out early on Saturday missing the late evening/night posts and went out on my exploratory mission at lunchtime Sunday devoid of clues. Not a big deal though cause I'm often out there clueless.

Using long and medium radius turns I tried a series of rapid waist-rotation movements (beyond my norm) to see if any particular sequence could produce a noticeably worthwhile effect. Nada. Just seemed like I was making extra movements for nothing.

After reading up here I now think I was experimenting with movements too far out in the middle of my long & medium radius turns.


As luck would have it, in my morning clinic I was teaching a variety of ‘Pelvic Moves’ intended to produce more a powerful turn finish. One such move was a sequence where late in a turn the Countered Pelvis is suddenly ‘tweaked’ to forcefully reduce turn diameter.

I taught this tweak as “lifting” the Inside-Hip up & forward in a brief pelvic move - which from another perspective might be described as driving the Outside-Hip down and back. This causes the Outside-Foot to suddenly pronate more while the Inside-Foot supinates more. It also creates a brief increase in angulation (too much in fact).

This move creates excess ski-tipping late in the turn without moving the CM to compensate - thereby causing a severe imbalance that ‘tosses’ the skier into the next turn’s direction. (Akin to the ‘Pop-Under’ transition I recall posting about a while back - but that was done via sudden extra knee angulation.) If this move is done a bit more slowly but just as forcefully it really sets the edges with a firm grip late in a turn while starting a firm (but slower) transition.

---
In my ‘normal’ skiing (as opposed to the variety of things I do while teaching) I make a similar move. As the Outside-Hip of my pelvis rotates around (driving my Outside-Ski forward) I sometimes add a bit ‘oomph’ late in a turn. I tweak my pelvis similar to above - but with a sudden lift up and backward of the Inside-Hip (another perspective would be: Outside-Hip downward and forward/inward… maybe this is the ‘screwing down’ perspective?)

The method I happened to be teaching the group leaves us with a lot of Counter late in a turn whereas the method described above leaves me with no Old-Turn Counter - and in fact leaves me with New-Turn Counter already established (pelvis facing a bit to the outside).

(In the interest of clarity, when I refer to ‘up’ or ‘down’ I mean in relation to my own upper-body position in the moment of action. If my upper-body is inclined 30-degrees then ‘down’ would actually be 30-degrees off vertical - and not directly at the snow - nor toward my

skis which might actually be even further to the side of me due to angulation) ---
After catching up on reading here I’m still not quite sure about the ‘shake’ thing, but … is it possible I’ve been looking for my car keys all over the house - while they were nestled there in my left hand? I ask because I see ideas posted above like “Really crank the (new) Inside-Knee as soon as you get over” - which is something I often do right after the Inside-hip-lift-back thing.

From another perspective I perceive a kind of a circular wind-up & throw motion of my Outside-Hip - where it’s suddenly driven forward & down, then up & over - and down again into the new turn. Overall, that sequence fits nicely with RicB’s description: “The waist shake is the wind up”. My sequence feels very much like that. Perhaps my disconnect is just in perspective? I seem to be thinking in terms of Inside/Lifting Activity rather than Outside/Downward Activity.

I suspect I didn’t notice anything in my medium and long turn experiments because the move there is much more of a slow and forceful ‘rolling’ thing. I was also adding the experimental moves much earlier in my turns (between apex and active transition start) which may have muddled up my quest. In short turns (maybe really short) and as part of a transition-trigger I could see calling that extra-energy move a ‘shake’.

Also, in longer turns I sometimes deliberately compress/accelerate the roll-over thing to bring about a sharp pivot into a hockey stop in the other direction. That could easily become a pivot-entry turn instead.

So, How close am I? Are the keys still out there somewhere on the 'shake' thing and I need to keep looking or are they in my other hand?

Sfdean…
While creating my own descriptions above I found it helpful to use the back of my sofa and a stout bookshelf base 30 inches away. By supporting myself between them was able to create a typical Angulated position and still morph all manner of waist twisting sequences.

.ma
post #110 of 117
Quote:
From another perspective I perceive a kind of a circular wind-up & throw motion of my Outside-Hip - where it’s suddenly driven forward & down, then up & over - and down again into the new turn. Overall, that sequence fits nicely with RicB’s description: “The waist shake is the wind up”. My sequence feels very much like that. Perhaps my disconnect is just in perspective? I seem to be thinking in terms of Inside/Lifting Activity rather than Outside/Downward Activity.

I suspect I didn’t notice anything in my medium and long turn experiments because the move there is much more of a slow and forceful ‘rolling’ thing. I was also adding the experimental moves much earlier in my turns (between apex and active transition start) which may have muddled up my quest. In short turns (maybe really short) and as part of a transition-trigger I could see calling that extra-energy move a ‘shake’. .ma
Sounds like the keys are in your hand. Look at the shake as any wind up release quick movement that happens right before the release; ie. moving into a PET. As I mentioned above the shake involves a quick left then right turn of the waist (if turning left and about to turn right). Its relaxation followed by a quick ballistic twist. These moves do belong where you placed then, between the apex and transition or right before the release/transition.

In long radius turn its all progressive WS movements. From re-centering movements and initial turn developing (Setting the Hip) its progressive and pretty subtle, but its there and can be passive or active (more or less power/intention). In a full countered turn (like a SuperG 35M radius in a tuck, high or low) it can be used as soon a you want to start realigning your hips with your DOT, but again, subtle and progressive.

Hope this adds some sauce to your soufflé

Just an observation. The full range of WS applications is pretty heady stuff and requires the student/racer/skier to have a very high level of "TBA" (total body awareness) to apply, especially in the gates. If the skier isn't fluent with the various methods of getting turn to turn, all the blends of angulation options, timing of extension and flexion, ski snow contact while carving and so on the "Shake" best be left in the closet. Simply using WS as a concept on how to realign from natural hip set (mild counter) to rotational alignment, tipping skis and introducing continuous fluid movement (as opposed to Park 'n Ride) is a great place to use it with advanced skiers/lower level racers. A note from a recent experience with a student

A good topic that could be developed in this thread is tatical and situational uses of advanced WS concepts. Hmmmm, thinking about it. Kind of started it a few posts ago with slalom turns.

Hey, is the Master Fu video getting buried?
post #111 of 117
Just want to stop in and thank Gary and Rick and everyone for all the work and responses. I have been on snow and following/integrating all of the WS movement concepts. In GS radius (my favorite), the new focus is really fun and will continue to work on it. My feedback and posts will be sparse but I AM HERE!! Thanks again. Bolter
post #112 of 117
I think I’d agree the shake thing isn’t a core move in all of this - more of an advanced tweak to improve transition. Still, things tend to get moldy when I leave them in the closets of my aging dwelling. Fortunately, things deteriorate slowly enough that I don’t easily notice …though others seem to.

Well then, if my interpretation of ‘shake’ is close enough then it's on to ‘tilt’.

Somewhere you mention a Fore/Aft pelvic tilt component in a Waist Steered. In my molding memories of turns twisted tightly, I’ve numerous neurons nestled nicely about this idea. What I do is quite pervasive. In order to more safely drive my Outside-Leg around I tend to invoke those muscles that draw the front of my pelvis upward first.

This move is very much like … well … like when you step on a dog turd hidden in the grass - and then try to wipe it off your shoe with a forward ‘drag’ of that shoe-sole across the grass. In so doing we might shift much of our weight to the Left Foot (shifting the entire pelvis to the Left, creating a bit of angulation) then tighten pelvic muscles & tilt the pelvis-front upward as we drag that Right-Foot forward across the grass - while keeping enough weight on it to remove the gushed-on goo.

Trying to drag that foot forward without first pre-tensioning/tipping the pelvis-front upward puts a lot of strain onto the muscles in front of the pelvis and just above the thigh that pull that leg forward. Because I’ve injured those Leg-Drawing-Forward muscles (little help here?) many times in the past I tend to implement automatic Fore/Aft pelvic tilt any time I’m about to pull that Outside-Leg forward forcefully (with a lot of pressure on it) instead of allowing it to slide forward while collapsing it to relieve pressure on it first (like in OLR).

---
Must admit, it took me a couple of years experimenting with a wide variety of waist-involved techniques to find a ‘matched set’ that not only interoperate in a cooperative fashion for each turn size & shape - but would also morph directly from one move into another quickly and directly. Another part of my struggle was getting past the many people telling me ‘not to ski that way’. The Old School idea that we should only twist & steer with our legs is still out there but I think it’s the force-generation potential (on our bodies) of the modern ski that’s driving biomechanical control higher up our body into stronger muscles better suited to the task under more extreme strains.

I know Gary and Rick are proponents of WS in the realm of Racing … but what of PSIA Exams? Does it fly there? - My answer is YES - it does. Not only that but the techniques described make it so much easier to ski well in difficult conditions. Of course, you’d still need to demonstrate a variety of classic techniques to prove you’re not a one-trick pony. I skied the majority of my own L2 and L3 skiing modules using the mechanisms described above (not the refined mechanisms MSR has since worked out). My best application of these techniques in Exams came in ‘Bumps’ and ‘Medium-Radius Turns in Bumps’ where the bumps were coated with 8” of cut up wet snow. Pivot-slip turns don’t work so well when the Bumps are covered with heavy, partially set-up Cascade Concrete. Just a thought.

Gary, with your recent mileage in the varied disciplines where do you perceive the most complex, advanced applications of WS? In the speed events? GS? SL? And is your difficulty-rating based on rapidity of movement? Range of movement? Degree of intensity? Concentration? Execution-precision requirements?

.ma
post #113 of 117
Quote:
Gary, with your recent mileage in the varied disciplines where do you perceive the most complex, advanced applications of WS? In the speed events? GS? SL? And is your difficulty-rating based on rapidity of movement? Range of movement? Degree of intensity? Concentration? Execution-precision requirements? -.ma
Interesting you should ask this. I just walked in from the most difficult, frustrating, aggravating day of slalom training, and of course snowing with hard ruts to boot. After I ice my back, take a hot tub, take narcotics (don't worry, they are prescribed), have my wife tell me that there WERE some positives (no there weren't), have my dogs still love me, I'll be back up in a bit to answer this good question.

As for the rest of your post - sounds right to me, good insights about how these skills simply apply to "skiing" and are not only reserved for the perverse breed that must whack themselves purple and blue in the gates.

Its been a tough day :
post #114 of 117
Sorry about your tough and frustrating day in the slalom gates, Gary. I'm having an incarnation sort of like that. (The absolute best thing about a slalom course is that you could pull out almost all the poles and then use if for Super G. But that's just me...)

It looks like I am going to get to sneak up and make some turns tomorrow. So I get to play with this on snow instead of carpet. I'm still not completely caught up on this thread, but I'm at least as far as post 48, where Rick said:

"But when you get beyond a certain edge angle it becomes very difficult to maintain outside ski dominant balance without adding some counter. Just take a look at the shot of Schlopy that Gary provided. He's at a very high edge angle at the bottom gate, and is displaying strong counter.

http://www.modernskiracing.com/images/Schlopy2006_1.jpg

Imagine if no gate was present and he wasn't countered at the apex as he is. He would be inclinated much more, his shoulder would be much lower to the snow, and his weight would be all over his inside ski, if he was able to remain upright at all. The counter he's using allows forward flexion at the waist to raise his shoulders and move his CM (and his balance point along with it) to the outside. With no counter, forward flexion at the waist does nothing to change lateral balance, and actually moves the shoulders lower to the snow…

[O]ne of the instructors here on Epic…immediately felt the forward power that was transferred to the outside ski when skiing square, and then later on his own began to move into higher angles and counter, while still using Waist Steering to power his outside ski through the turn. Once you feel it during the square skiing intro, you know what you're trying to replicate when you increase the angles."

--Rick, post 48

Now I found that intriguing as heck, since I use a lot of early counter in making GS turns to get the skis on edge.

My carpet-based observation: Counter generates a slightly greater edge angle than does the chubby checkers twist/imitation waist steering move I've been playing with on the carpet based on this thread.

My photo (of self in the gates) observation: I'm still carrying around a rather striking set of bad habits. Those include excessive inside tip lead and a lazy outside hand that's not far enough forward approaching gate clear, not bending the inside knee quite enough, not getting the hips quite low and displaced enough in the turn, and and getting too tall in the transition and (partly as a result of that) ending up not optimally forward at turn initiation.

That said, I like using counter to initiate turns, and my early season racing camp really emphasized counter. (Like many of us carbon based life forms, I occasionally fall onto the inside ski, and counter is useful in loading up the outside ski. It would be even more useful for that if I could get my shoulders a little more forward.)

So my thought was, rather than throwing everything out, what if I start my turns with strong counter, and then use Waist Steering to drive the outside half forward and finish the turn? It seems to me that would help fix the outside hand lagging, and end the excessive tip lead. And slightly dropping the outside hip down and in (away from the outside ski) is exactly the change that the guys who are a lot faster than me model in the still pictures taken at the same point approaching the gate. (They've also, ahem, got their shoulders a little more forward. But I'm working on that.) And I've got to think that anything that contributes a feeling of forward power to the outside ski would be a good thing in the gates.

Does any of that make sense to you Gary and Rick?

SfDean
post #115 of 117
Quote:
Gary, with your recent mileage in the varied disciplines where do you perceive the most complex, advanced applications of WS? In the speed events? GS? SL? And is your difficulty-rating based on rapidity of movement? Range of movement? Degree of intensity? Concentration? Execution-precision requirements? - .ma
I still need to give this question appropriate attention but a quick answer is SLALOM!! Things happen very fast, not a lot of time to develop each phase of the turn. Slalom is extremely technical, subtle and quick twitch :

I've been training morning and night with other commitments in the soup, I'll try and get back with a more complete answer at least by Monday (races this weekend and a lot to do before hand). I've opened my mouth about my objectives for this weekend's race and I've got a lot of work to do in order to make it happen. And now I'll be racing in a blizzard (I'm not quite as good at my thang when I can't see, and the excuses start flyin' ).

Will be back as soon as I can. BTW, Rick is off on business for the next week.
post #116 of 117
Quote:
So my thought was, rather than throwing everything out, what if I start my turns with strong counter, and then use Waist Steering to drive the outside half forward and finish the turn? It seems to me that would help fix the outside hand lagging, and end the excessive tip lead. And slightly dropping the outside hip down and in (away from the outside ski) is exactly the change that the guys who are a lot faster than me model in the still pictures taken at the same point approaching the gate. (They've also, ahem, got their shoulders a little more forward. But I'm working on that.) And I've got to think that anything that contributes a feeling of forward power to the outside ski would be a good thing in the gates.

Does any of that make sense to you Gary and Rick?

SfDean
Dean, the Holmenkol WC brush will be there Saturday, its gone. YES to above. That is almost exactly what I used in this morning's SuperG and I had a very good result I'm not sure about this

Quote:
And slightly dropping the outside hip down and in (away from the outside ski)
I just don't quite understand the concept as to where in the turn you are referring to. If this is Apex to finish and is part of leveling your shoulders and/or skiing into anticipation (upper/lower body separation) just prior to the release, yup.

Sorry for the rushed and brief answers! I'll get back through this stuff (posts above) when I get done getting my butt kicked by the young guns this weekend
post #117 of 117

Biff's biffs and (maybe) breakthrough

My apologies in advance for a long post, but I had a great day and it felt like a breakthrough.

I tried this out on snow today. It was complicated by conditions (relentless cold fine rain all day, poor coverage, incredibly wet heavy snow from the last few days, measured at 86% humidity before most of the rain) and equipment problems. I found out yesterday from the shop that the bindings have essentially failed on the pair of skis I use for GS—the left ski heel release releases at about 60% of the pressure it should resist. (Had them checked out because I suspected that.) In retrospect, skiing today with that known heel prerelease problem, when I’m working on getting more forward, in terrible visibility, going into heavy wet gloppy snow, was not one of my more brilliant decisions. (Six (!) binding prereleases today. A power-biff record even for Biff.) The shop is now, as I type this, replacing those bindings with some others I had on a different pair of skis, in time for this weekend’s opening club league GS race (if it doesn’t get snowed out.) In the meantime, at the very end of the ski day I worked on another variation for Rick’s early season balance progression drills: Make all your right foot/left turns committed way forward, on the balls of your feet/nearly over the handlebars, but make all your left foot/right turns in neutral, balanced on the whole foot, so you don’t pull out of the binding.

Early in the day, I spent some time trying to get the feel of what I understand as a specific kind (or kinds) of waist steering turn. (My limited understanding is that waist steering is a much broader category, of a variety of moves using core muscle recruitment, in a variety of different circumstances.) What I was really trying was (at various times) two slightly different things: (1) to create early knee angulation and a substantial edge angle through a forward rotation/drop/lateral displacement of the outside hip (hard to explain, but the kind of thing I’ve been working on in the doorjamb at home and what we’ve discussed above—it’s kind of Chubby Checkers*), rather than through counter (my traditional approach, and essentially something like an “opposite” way to create the edge angle, in terms of where the hips are going); (2) in the last half of the turn to drive the (old) outside hip and ski forward dynamically to finish the turn and launch toward the next imaginary gate (essentially, rotating in the turn with the outside hip going faster.)

I found (1) educational and fun. It was a great way to shake myself out of my rut (must…increase…counter) and the turns had a very different feel to them. I felt more like I was driving my knees into the inside of the turn (and toward the next imaginary gate.) The turns didn’t have quite the same “bite” as a turn with a lot of counter. (Hard to explain, but when I really throw a lot of counter into a turn, there’s a point where the ski fore body really digs into the snow for a forcible redirection.) These turns were smoother, less of the “j” turn you get with that counter/bite. And they came with fewer of my usual bad habits. My outside hand didn’t get left behind, and I stayed forward. Excessive inside tip lead didn’t seem to be a problem.

But the real striking “feel” thing was when I tried (2) really driving the outside hip through late in the turn. It felt fast and dynamic. I was a little inconsistent, but there were times when it really felt like a huge acceleration. And it felt directed forward through the imaginary course. And it kept/got my hip forward. Again, no problem with excessive inside tip lead. And it was a completely different feel than upper body over-rotation and having my tails wash out. (Let’s just say Biff here knows THAT feeling, thanks to a checkered past includes having reached for a few slalom gates…) It wasn’t led by the shoulder, it was led by the outside hip, and the outside ski just accelerated.

So on an easy intermediate run, after trying it out, I played with it a bit, now trying three turns with counter, now trying three turns initiated with the Chubby Checkers move instead, now trying three turns where I paid attention to finishing the turn with a dynamic drive forward/faster rotation of the outside hip.

I was skiing with my daughter midweek, in pouring rain, so we were just about the only people on the hill. So after a bunch of self directed intentional skiing over a couple of hours, I just made a bunch of runs going flat out, ripping GS turns, not paying much attention to counter/waist steering or anything else. I think that was some of the best free skiing I’ve ever done. My inside knee was deeply bent and angled inside. My hands were forward and my weight was forward—not sometimes, but always. (Twice pulled out of my binding that way without hitting any bump or loose stuff. And that from backseat Biff.) And I was achieving huge edge angles close to the snow.

Now, it was pretty easy conditions (no one on the hill, shallow easy intermediate pitch, no gates so I could make my turns anywhere.) And it might be a coincidence—I made a lot of progress in a week of racing camp two weeks ago, and may have pulled even more of that together mentally since. But I don’t think it was a coincidence. And improved skiing typically turns up more strikingly in easier free skiing before it crosses over into the gates.

It was as if all my self-known bad habits (not being forward enough, getting back on my heels periodically, excessive inside tip lead, lagging outside hand, getting too tall in transition, not bending/rolling my inside knee enough) disappeared all at the same time. (Thank you, genie, and for my other two wishes, about those ligaments and my relentlessly pinched/late line choice…)

When I got home, I told my wife it was the best I’d ever skied. If our GS race actually goes as scheduled this Sunday (8 ball and weather man say "not likely"), I’ll have a gate and timing light reality check on whether I’m really making progress. (Bad habits do have a way of reappearing in the gates where it’s steeper.) Unless it also gets snowed out, there’s a one day race clinic on Saturday, and I may also get to make some turns night skiing on Friday, so I might be able to cement some of this progress into muscle memory where it’s steeper. In any event, today was a complete blast.

SfDean

*Gary, in answer to your question about what I’m calling here the Chubby Checkers turn initiation (I don’t claim to understand Waist Steering completely--there's an understatement--but I have been inspired by it and do aspire to understand it. And it’s even possible that I did some of it today.) As I try to recreate the move once again on carpet, it goes something like this: Start in an athletic stance, as if you’ve already started the turn to the left, balanced on the little toe edge of your left foot, and the big toe edge of your right foot, with a little knee angulation so your feet are to the right of the legs they support. Have your weight on the balls of your feet. Now, early in the turn to really get to business, simultaneously, (1) drop your center of mass a couple of inches, (2) rotate your belly button to the left, (3) let your right hip (A) sink to the left, and (B) rotate forward, as (4) your right knee (especially) bends and angulates much more, increasing edge angle. On carpet, to make it more resemble the move on the snow, also twist your feet to the left. On snow, that turning of the feet would be accomplished by the edge angle+sidecut, and possibly rotating the right hip forward would also have a tendency to pull the right ski through the turn more.

( I think, technically, what I call bending the right knee and increasing the knee angulation is rotation of the femur in the hip socket, which is augmented or becomes more pronounced when you also rotate the right hip forward at the same time by pointing your belly button to the left. But bending the knee and increasing the knee angulation is how I describe it as an effect and how I can best follow it.)

PS Good luck in the gates this weekend, Gary. (As they say out here, "ski like an Austrian." See, I did so get back to the original topic.)
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