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helmets? yay or nay? - Page 4

post #91 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitSuperEgo View Post
... helmet wearers far out number the potential Darwin Award recipients. ...
Thanks for helping me make my point (see above post from me).
post #92 of 356
Let's not be giving Darwin Awards to skiers who wear wool caps. It's not stupid to ski without a helmet.
post #93 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitSuperEgo View Post
So... do you wear one?
Only when I'm skiing somewhere I'm unfamiliar with and might end up where I didn't want to be. Use prevention if you can.
Everybody makes it sound like you're insane if you don't wear one, but 10 years ago NOBODY wore one. What would happen if I started wearing a helmet while driving? Would I look like I was out of my mind? Yep! But if it came up that helmets can save your life even more than a seat belt, would it then become standard to wear one? Most likely.
A snowboarder was pronounced DOA at the local ER. It was a head-on colission with a tree. Of course the local shop that was interviewed promoted sales/helmets. But the facts are that he hit face first and was skiing off the trails. The helmet wouldn't have saved him and the shop knows it. They used someones death as a promotion???
My closing argument is- It's your personal choice and no one elses. Everybodys response is- If you wear one, you're smart and won't get hurt as bad.
The truth- They don't make you Superman.

Aceman
post #94 of 356
Normally i'd stay out of helmet discussions, but it's grating that they stopped being the same old pointless debates and turned into public lynchings.
Why are some helmet-wearers so stuck on getting everyone else to join the brigade, anyway? It's not goodwill - if you cared about everyone's noggin' so damn much, there'd be fewer allusions to the Darwin Awards.

Quote:
Why isn't the fact that skiing is a very dangerous sport with risk of serious injury or death something that people should know from the start?
Because it doesn't need to be SAID. Life is a "very dangerous sport with risk of serious injury" and absolutely certain to kill you eventually.. does anyone really need a warning label?
My coffee cup already tells me that the coffee is hot (it damn well better be!), my superman costume that it won't make me fly (that'd be a neat trick), do I really need my skis to tell me that crashing into things/people/ice at high speeds with two boards strapped to my feet might hurt? Damn - I never would have thought.

There are valid reasons to wear a helmet (mostly enforced by statistics), while all reasons to not wear a helmet are personal - does that make them less valid?
My father is one of those old-timer who will never wear a helmet on the slopes, but he also hasn't had a fall of any kind in approximately 3 seasons - what would a helmet have done for him?
Yes, S*it happens (sayeth Buddah). But it's a personal choice how much you protect yourself with equipment, how much you protect yourself with caution and how much you rely on your skills or on sheer, dumb luck.
IMHO no-one has the right to tell me how to live as long as the only potential victim of my choices is me.

My grandfather's health was deteriorating rapidly, and the doctor advised him to avoid an early grave by improving his lifestyle: no more smoking, drinking, women etc. My grandpa walked out saying "And then why the hell would I want to keep living?" - OK, didn't really happen, but he totally would have said that .

Peace for helmets and coolhats!

jinx
post #95 of 356
Jackfrost is the reason we all need helmets. You may be a conservative, careful, and exquisite skier, which makes no difference whatsoever when a yahoo takes you out 100 yards from base.

Seriously, the potential life-altering effect of a closed-head injury would seem to mandate head protection in any snow-sport. Get a good helmet that fits well and you will love it.
post #96 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Let's not be giving Darwin Awards to skiers who wear wool caps. It's not stupid to ski without a helmet.

It is also not the smartest thing. I, myself have done things in my younger , and not so younger, days that would have ranked me among the potential Darwin Award recipients.

I consider anyone, that engages is risky behavior/activities, that prefers to ingnore relativly inexpensive and easily obtainable saftey gear, as a potential candidate.

I aknowledge that many activities have a high risk of injury. I also belive in trying to reduce the chance of injury, providing the cost is not excessive.

I do support your right to choose, i also will not stop advocating for helmet use. Do i think not wearing a helmet is stupid, yup, but i aslo know a helmet has limited functionality, in some types of accidents.

Kevin
post #97 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
Everybody makes it sound like you're insane if you don't wear one, but 10 years ago NOBODY wore one. What would happen if I started wearing a helmet while driving? Would I look like I was out of my mind? Yep! But if it came up that helmets can save your life even more than a seat belt, would it then become standard to wear one? Most likely.

Aceman
So 20-30 years ago hardly anybody wore condoms.
post #98 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier View Post

Get a good helmet that fits well and you will love it.
And how do you know this exactly?

I have a helmet that fits quite well but I definitely do not love it. In fact, I hate every helmet I've ever worn.

The thing about this debate is that we who don't wear helmets can't possibly win the argument.

If I point out (quite accurately in my case) that I've skied 35 years and never had a crash where a helmet would have made any difference at all, you all will simply respond that I'm "due".

If I point that that I hate wearing one because they're too hot, you all will sing in chorus "Oh, you should try MY helmet - it has SO much ventilation!". (My response would be that ANY helmet is hotter than no helmet.)

When I point out that most of my skiing is done in low-traffic places, you'll all remind me that I must have to get on a lift at some point and when I do I'm braving the gauntlet of the runouts.

When I point out that I've made it a practice for years to be extremely aware of traffic around and above me, no matter where or what speed I'm skiing, you'll cluck that "it only takes ONE out-of-control rider to get you".

I wear a helmet on the rare occasions when I know I'm going to be skiing a place or a speed that's riskier than my "normal" skiing. Other than that, I don't and I won't.

If that's anti-Darwinian, you can be comforted by the fact that I'm childless and well beyond the age where I would be contributing to the gene pool anyway.
post #99 of 356
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier

Get a good helmet that fits well and you will love it.


And how do you know this exactly?
Well, golly, Bob--you've found me out. I do not "know this exactly." It was an attempt at encouragement. What is odd about your rejoinder is that you spend so much time exhorting that which you label a "personal choice" by lambasting those that recommend a safety device.

Beyond irony, however, your argument carries at its core a tacit premise that any injury to you--through your self-aggrandizing and defiant stand against helmet use--effects only you. (DELETED) a catastrophic injury that involves the expenditure medical resources and the concommitant incurrence of fees certainly does increase the costs of jumping into the "medical pool" for everyone.

Quote:
If I point out (quite accurately in my case) that I've skied 35 years and never had a crash where a helmet would have made any difference at all, you all will simply respond that I'm "due".

If I point that that I hate wearing one because they're too hot, you all will sing in chorus "Oh, you should try MY helmet - it has SO much ventilation!". (My response would be that ANY helmet is hotter than no helmet.)

When I point out that most of my skiing is done in low-traffic places, you'll all remind me that I must have to get on a lift at some point and when I do I'm braving the gauntlet of the runouts.

When I point out that I've made it a practice for years to be extremely aware of traffic around and above me, no matter where or what speed I'm skiing, you'll cluck that "it only takes ONE out-of-control rider to get you".
Your accomplishments are amazing. Is that what you long to hear? You've been blessed by angels' tears? You have a lucky star shining on you? The fact that you have avoided a catastrophic accident to date hardly invalidates the efficacy or soundness of helmet use. Your argument is no more tenable than the smoker who rails against non-smoking simply because, by dint of fate, she or he has not yet been killed by emphysema.

Good luck with your helmet-less future.
post #100 of 356
Quote:
... a catastrophic injury that involves the expenditure medical resources and the concommitant incurrence of fees certainly does increase the costs of jumping into the "medical pool" for everyone.
That's more applicable to someone wearing a helmet aside from being a cheap, dumb argument! : A helmet-less skier involved in an accident that could cause a "catastrophic injury" probably wakes up dead. On the other hand the safety-concious helmetwearer has a much higher chance of surviving that same catastrophic accident and requiring serious medical care - right? Helmets keep you alive, after all!
This is the retarded argument that drove me crazy when I was a smoker.. I'm hurting society because they'll have to pay for my medical care? Not likely - the worse I live the happier those people should be with me - the best way to keep your lifetime medical care low is to die young!
post #101 of 356

What's next? Full Body Amour

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier View Post
Well, golly, Bob--you've found me out. I do not "know this exactly." It was an attempt at encouragement. What is odd about your rejoinder is that you spend so much time exhorting that which you label a "personal choice" by lambasting those that recommend a safety device.



Beyond irony, however, your argument carries at its core a tacit premise that any injury to you--through your self-aggrandizing and defiant stand against helmet use--effects only you. (DELETED) a catastrophic injury that involves the expenditure medical resources and the concommitant incurrence of fees certainly does increase the costs of jumping into the "medical pool" for everyone.



Your accomplishments are amazing. Is that what you long to hear? You've been blessed by angels' tears? You have a lucky star shining on you? The fact that you have avoided a catastrophic accident to date hardly invalidates the efficacy or soundness of helmet use. Your argument is no more tenable than the smoker who rails against non-smoking simply because, by dint of fate, she or he has not yet been killed by emphysema.

Good luck with your helmet-less future.
I am amazed at how vitriolic and dogmatic some of the pro-helmet people are here.

Some of the arguments remind me of the Bush administrations so-called War on Terror,
(“You’re either with us, or against us”), other arguments sound like they came from the
Christian Right to Life bunch “save a life today”.

If you really are worried about us Infidels, stay off the slopes with your helmets and I pods. I would rather be run into by a helmet less idiot, than one with a helmet! What is next? Full body amour ala the Downhill Bike Brigade?
post #102 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIJared View Post
So 20-30 years ago hardly anybody wore condoms.
Speak for yourself!:
post #103 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by flaviaman View Post
I am amazed at how vitriolic and dogmatic some of the pro-helmet people are here.

Some of the arguments remind me of the Bush administrations so-called War on Terror,
(“You’re either with us, or against us”), other arguments sound like they came from the
Christian Right to Life bunch “save a life today”.

If you really are worried about us Infidels, stay off the slopes with your helmets and I pods. I would rather be run into by a helmet less idiot, than one with a helmet! What is next? Full body amour ala the Downhill Bike Brigade?
Actually I am looking into that, but for racing, but if comfortable enough I will use it for freeskiing as well.
post #104 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx View Post
...Because it doesn't need to be SAID. Life is a "very dangerous sport with risk of serious injury" and absolutely certain to kill you eventually.. does anyone really need a warning label?..
Good post. Thanks for agreeing that Darwin Awards should be reserved for really dumb acts.

The danger of skiing should be obvious I guess, but I feel like the ski industry tends to try to hide the fact, which if true is sort of unethical. The quote you made was in response to a suggestion that an instructor should hide his helmet so the students don't get scared. This is the kind of thing I find objectionable.
post #105 of 356
I've already posted in this thread, but I'd like to reiterate that helmet wearing does not have to be a religious issue. I'm a wearer that believes it should be a personal choice.

I also have doubts about the width of the window between where a crash is serious enough for a helmet to matter and where it is so serious that it does no good. I suspect it is not nearly as wide as some people think.

I wear mine because I like it. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried one to look for one that fits and give it a go. Beyond that, if you've decided you don't like it, fine.
post #106 of 356
Yah, what he said!

There are a few times i'll don my helmet, backcountry trips, chutes and rocks.

But, after being to first one onpatrol at my resort to wear a helmet,and wore one for ten plus years, I very seldom wear it anymore. It just got to be a pain in the a$$ lugging it around all the time. Finding a place for it at the table for lunch, stickers kept falling off.

Honestly, they're over rated as far as safety goes.
post #107 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier View Post
The fact that you have avoided a catastrophic accident to date hardly invalidates the efficacy or soundness of helmet use. Your argument is no more tenable than the smoker who rails against non-smoking simply because, by dint of fate, she or he has not yet been killed by emphysema.

But, see, that's the whole point.

Even in your analogy, millions of people smoke all their lives and never develop lung cancer or emphysema. Millions of people drink alcohol and never develop alcoholism. Millions of people eat french fries and T-bone steaks and never develop heart problems.

Wearing a helmet is a choice to avoid risk. You've analyzed skiing and come to the conclusion that the risk requires a helmet. I've analyzed skiing and come to the conclusion that the risk involved in my everyday skiing does not require a helmet.

Apparently, your conclusion process is superior to mine. That's one of the reasons I decided to give the species a break and not procreate.

I'll just remind you that many, many people analyze the risks of skiing and decide not to ski at all.

That is, after all, one logical extension of your concern about risk. Rather than go *that* far, you've decided that wearing a helmet mitigates an acceptable level of risk for you. I've decided that *my* acceptable level of risk does not normally require a helmet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier View Post
Good luck with your helmet-less future.
Thanks. That's very kind of you.

Same to you.
post #108 of 356
I have a helmet and wear it most of the time.
The time I don't wear it is when I take the school kids skiing.
I've been criticized that, when I ski with the kids is when I should set the example and wear my helmet, but.........
I spend most of the day on the bunny hill helping kids, and rarely get a chance to ski, really ski.
Also, the hat I wear when I ski with the school kids is a big floppy Cat in the Hat, hat. Its great for visibility and I am visible to all the kids when they need to find me.

There you have it. Bob, get a big cat in the hat hat and you'll be fine.
post #109 of 356
I am for less government and PRO CHOICE. That's right, I believe on any given day each individual gets to decide if you want to wear a helmet or not wear a helmet.

For all you folks that think EVERYONE is lower than Whale $hit if they don't wear a helmet I have just one thing to say to you. STOP TRYING TO TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY MUST DO on CAN'T DO and DON'T EVEN THING ABOUT LIVING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

Yes that was more than one thing and here is one more for everyone that thinks helmets are required by everyone:

Helmets are rated at only 14 miles per hour and average ski speed is 28 miles per hour. Helmets may reduce risk but it does not reduce the risk as much as you might think it does.

Sometimes I wear my helmet and sometimes I don't. Yes my three ADULT kids all wear helmets. Its their choice and mine.
post #110 of 356
She's not wearing a helmet and I bet none of you guys care
http://www.telemarktips.com/Resource...aper21_8x6.jpg
post #111 of 356
Now that's dangerous. At least she's wearing gloves, but I'd like to see some knee pads on those bony little knees. Spring show is abrasive, yikes!
post #112 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Now that's dangerous. At least she's wearing gloves, but I'd like to see some knee pads on those bony little knees. Spring show is abrasive, yikes!
Seems to me that you were the original poster of that particular link
Someone you know?
post #113 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post
Go to a store with a big selection and find the helmet that fits just right. They come in many different models and sizes and the right model for your head is called for. The SMG (ski-shop guy/gal) will tell you whether it fit properly or not, and if not, then you are in the wrong shop. Buy the helmet in the shop where you find one that fit's just right. Don't be a cheapskate and try to mail-order one. It's your head for gosh sakes.
All that plus, bring your goggles to make sure they fit right. On another note, I just ordered two different helmets since I can't find the models around where I live. I ordered from REI they have some on sale for 20% off. I will return the one that doesn't fit. My point is, if you can't find the model you like, don't settle for less of a helmet- as said above, it's your head!
post #114 of 356

Helmet Discussion

To me it's simple physics. Abrupt stops with your head tend to be less damaging if there is something between your skull and the ice, pavement, tree, or whatever to absorb the initial impact and disperse the energy. Ski racers know this, rock climbers know this, football players know this, race car drivers know this (and they travel at 200mph--refuting the notion of a helmet's value only at slow speeds) and folks like Gary Busey know this. Also, wearing a ski helmet is an act of responsibility and care for one's self, loved ones, EMTs charged with treating an accident scene, and fellow insurance policyholders who bear the ultimate costs on one another's accidents.

I have skidded off a SuperG course at 60 mph and ended up with a burned race suit and damaged helmet but an intact head. Free to choose? We all are and should be. I gladly choose to wear a ski helmet.
post #115 of 356
My 17-year-old son wears a helmet, but won't buckle the chin strap unless we nag him incessantly. Should I care? I've given up arguing with him about it, but I wonder if the helmet is ever good for more than the first hit anyway.
post #116 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJazz View Post
... Ski racers know this, rock climbers know this, football players know this, race car drivers know this ...
You know, don't you, that for those activities, manufactures have and adhere to industry standards for helmet design and construction, and that AFAIK no recreational skiing helmet manufacturers adhere to an accepted set of industry standards? But if wearing one makes you feel better in spite of that, then it's worth it. And incidentally not all rock climbers - by a long shot - wear helmets. And when they wear them, it isn't for fall protection - it's to protect against falling rocks, which generally isn't a huge hazard when skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJazz View Post
Also, wearing a ski helmet is an act of responsibility and care for one's self, loved ones, EMTs charged with treating an accident scene, and fellow insurance policyholders who bear the ultimate costs on one another's accidents.
There it is again, the tone that seems impossible for many helmet-wearers to forgo - that you're somehow morally deficit if you choose not to wear a helmet. Tiresome. I assume that you wear body armor and spinal protection whenever you ski? For that matter, isn't skiing itself rather irresponsible? If you never ski, you'll never get hurt skiing and let down your loved ones and force EMTs to take risks or cause your fellow policyholders' rates to go up.
post #117 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by catskills View Post
I am for less government and PRO CHOICE. That's right, I believe on any given day each individual gets to decide if you want to wear a helmet or not wear a helmet.

For all you folks that think EVERYONE is lower than Whale $hit if they don't wear a helmet I have just one thing to say to you. STOP TRYING TO TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY MUST DO on CAN'T DO and DON'T EVEN THING ABOUT LIVING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

Yes that was more than one thing and here is one more for everyone that thinks helmets are required by everyone:

Helmets are rated at only 14 miles per hour and average ski speed is 28 miles per hour. Helmets may reduce risk but it does not reduce the risk as much as you might think it does.

Sometimes I wear my helmet and sometimes I don't. Yes my three ADULT kids all wear helmets. Its their choice and mine.
I used to feel the exact same way as you, I even used to think that way about seatbelts, car inspections, drugs, speeding...basically everything. But then one day I came upon a realization as I sat in traffic 2hrs on a hot summer day and finally rolled upto the reason why I was forced to lose 2hrs of my life that I will never recover....a broken down car that looked like a jalopy; lack of maintenance on the owners part. You see the rules, laws, guidelines, are there not because we or the govt. gives a rats ass about you or me as an individual, but they do care about the the general population; because that is America. Where am I going with this? By you not wearing a helmet and getting your head busted open by some out of control snow boarder hitting you from behind with his braces filled mouth, you are now enroaching on mine and everyone elses time on that hill. As you kneel on the floor in a daze, blood gushing from the back of your head, you will be surrounded by paramedics, mountain patrol, snowmobiles, etc. That will in turn slow everyone uphill from you, use up resources (paramedics will be tending to your helmet-less head rather than the guy with the ruptured ACL on the north face), thus ruining a good run for hundreds of people for enough of a period of time, that yes, it does make a difference.

Also, dont you think that having more accidents where an injury is sustained increases the overhead and in turn raises lift prices? Of course it does. Dont be so quick to shoot down the system, I hate being told what to do (to a fault, believe me!) but when you look at it in the way I have illustrated, you can easily see that your "freedom" can actually take away from that of many others.

I would like to add that in life as you know there are no gaurantees other than that tomorrow is a new day and you will eventually die. Life's job is to turn the odds in our favor to survive the longest while living it to the fullest, every bit that gives you more favorable odds, is money in the bank.
post #118 of 356
Some will...some won't...so what.

It is nice to have a choice.
post #119 of 356
Quote:
I've seen countless people bounce their heads off the ground, and they rarely seem to be any worse off for it. I guess in MN, the "snow" is always "ice" (should I say ICY instead?), but it tends to for somewhat forgiving compared to cement.
Or it might be saying something about the thickness of the average Minnesotian's head. (Tongue in cheek)
post #120 of 356

Helmets

Wow, Bob Lee! Did I direct my repsonse to you personally, whoever you are? A simple statement of my position is what I intended and accomplished, not meant to challenge whatever position you may have. Good point, though on helmet standards. Skiing should have real tested standards like other sports. Now, be nice!
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