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helmets? yay or nay? - Page 8

post #211 of 356
to anyone who skis with out a helmet on......come skis with me for a day. Your opinion on how and wheather should wear a helmet or not will change.

To everyone that says they rarely fall. Stop being a pussy and ski something that scares you alittle. If your not falling you nowhere near skiing "your limit" then what is the point if your not pushing yourself.

and remember this there are 2 parts of the body that are still extremely hard for doctors to fix. Spinal Cord Injury and head injuries. If you want to see something sad go meet up with someone that had a head injury. I know a couple though skiing with adaptive sports. back home there is a former pro mountain biker my age that got hit while skiing at my home resort. No helmet. at 22 he is confined to a wheel chair, cant feed himself, cant go to the bathroom himself. His conversations consistent of giggling outburst and slurred speach. Would a helmet saved him? no one would ever know but it sure as hell would of been a start. Now imagine this being this guys condition and knowing you were in that condition and knowing that you werent wearing a helmet when that happened to you. Now your screwed up for life. Personally I would rather die than live like that.....
post #212 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
to anyone who skis with out a helmet on......come skis with me for a day. Your opinion on how and wheather should wear a helmet or not will change.

To everyone that says they rarely fall. Stop being a pussy and ski something that scares you alittle. If your not falling you nowhere near skiing "your limit" then what is the point if your not pushing yourself.

.
RHH at work.
post #213 of 356
One of the best reviews of helmet use in snow sports I have seen:

http://www.ski-injury.com/helmet.htm

One good point made there is separating data for deaths and for head injuries as related to helmet use. Very fair and unbiased review in my opinion.
post #214 of 356
Bottom line is its all about increasing your odds...thats all. A helmet only works under certain circumstances, but those are enough reason for me to use it, I like stacking the odds in my favor wherever I can. For those that dont, well they like to take more risks than those of us that do, that is all.
post #215 of 356
A lot of posts since I last checked. Read most of them and found the post by Catskills the most amusing. His link to dat to support his view actually states the opposite. Helmats do reduce injury rates but not death rates as Dr. Rick had implied. I will highlight the data and conclusion from Catskills link.

Head Injuries and helmets
So what about helmets reducing the rates and severity of head injuries?
Again, things have to be kept in perspective. Head injuries account for at most 10-20% of all injuries from snow sports - although some studies have shown higher rates in children (up to 43% in one Canadian study though I have not seen that reported anywhere else). But even taking this 43% rate coupled with the highest injury rate gives a rate for head injury of 2.4 per 1000 skier days - really very low. a more average risk would be about 0.3-0.5 per 1000 skier days. Most of these injuries are minor (usually concussion) and as I have already mentioned the bad ones are usually the result of skiing or boarding out of control.


MacNab et al in 2002 published a case-control study to determine whether wearing a helmet protected young skiers and boarders against head injury. They looked at head, face and neck injuries in those aged less than 13 years and found helmets lead to a 43% reduction in the risk of head, face and neck injuries. Furthermore, they found that no serious neck injuries occurred as the result of wearing a helmet.

In February 2005, Hagel and colleagues from Canada published a case-control study in the British Medical Journal comparing 1082 skiers and snowboarders with head or neck injuries with 3295 skiers/boarders without head or neck injuries. They found that wearing a helmet reduced the risk of a head injury overall by 29%. For those who required ambulance transport, wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head injury by 56%. 693 people had head injuries - 69,7% of which were cases of concussion. Those with head injuries were more likely to have been injured as the result of a collision or jump. They found no associations between wearing a helmet and the occurrence of neck injuries.

Finally, in February 2006, Sulheim et al from Norway published a case-control study from 8 Norwegian resorts to see if helmets might reduce head injury rates. The overall incidence of head injury in this study of 3277 injuries was 17.6%. They found a 53% higher incidence of head injuries amongst snowboarders compared to alpine skiers. Using a helmet reduced the risk of sustaining a head injury by 60% (Odds ratio 0.40, 95% confidence interval 0.3-0.55 for the statisticians amongst you!). They also found a trend towards a lower incidence of neck injuries amongst those wearing a helmet.

In conclusion...
So, to conclude, helmets are a good idea and will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible too. They are especially important for children, who are at highest risk of snow sport injury. In addition, there is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others. However, it must be remembered that wearing a helmet will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so go careful, especially if there are trees near the pistes you're on.

[quote=catskills;630749] {quote edited by myself) 60% reduction in risk of head injury hey. That statement borders on the ridiculous. You are aware that the skier/rider death rate and skier/rider visits have remained fairly constant for many years while the number of skiers/riders wearing helmets has increased significantly.

Here is a link to another opposing view:

http://www.ski-injury.com/helmet.htm

Note that Catskills talks about deaths not injuries. Most deaths are from major blunt trauma with multiple organ damage. No helmet will prevet that and that is why the death rates have been stable.

One disclaimer, I did not go and read the entire referenced data just the summary in this link. It is possible that the conclusions of the author are incorrect, but he does seem to know his science and statistics. See next post
post #216 of 356
Bloxy, you too need to be more careful in your interpretation of the data. Again I did not go back to read the entire journal article from your reference but they are all used in the link that Catskills gave and I will again highlight the important data/conclusions.

Hagel et al:

In February 2005, Hagel and colleagues from Canada published a case-control study in the British Medical Journal comparing 1082 skiers and snowboarders with head or neck injuries with 3295 skiers/boarders without head or neck injuries. They found that wearing a helmet reduced the risk of a head injury overall by 29%. For those who required ambulance transport, wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head injury by 56%. 693 people had head injuries - 69,7% of which were cases of concussion. Those with head injuries were more likely to have been injured as the result of a collision or jump. They found no associations between wearing a helmet and the occurrence of neck injuries.

McNabb et al:
MacNab et al in 2002 published a case-control study to determine whether wearing a helmet protected young skiers and boarders against head injury. They looked at head, face and neck injuries in those aged less than 13 years and found helmets lead to a 43% reduction in the risk of head, face and neck injuries. Furthermore, they found that no serious neck injuries occurred as the result of wearing a helmet.

Sulheim et al:
Finally, in February 2006, Sulheim et al from Norway published a case-control study from 8 Norwegian resorts to see if helmets might reduce head injury rates. The overall incidence of head injury in this study of 3277 injuries was 17.6%. They found a 53% higher incidence of head injuries amongst snowboarders compared to alpine skiers. Using a helmet reduced the risk of sustaining a head injury by 60% (Odds ratio 0.40, 95% confidence interval 0.3-0.55 for the statisticians amongst you!). They also found a trend towards a lower incidence of neck injuries amongst those wearing a helmet.

Nakaguchi's was a prospective study and no data is in the link, so i may try to find that reference and see what it states.

So your statement, in bold below, is contradicted by your data. Did you read the references you cited?




Quote:
Originally Posted by bloxy View Post
{quote edited by myself and references cut and pasted from his following post} All of the research done has shown that helmets make no statistically significant difference to injury rates. There are lots of anecdotal stories of how helmets saved people just like there are lots of anecdotal stories hoe NOT wearing a seat belt saved people.

If you want to wear one thats fine but the EVIDENCE is that it won't save your life or significantly reduce your risk of injury.

Also bear in mind the real risk involved. US data shows one death every 1.6 million skier visits due to a head injury. That is probably less risk than stepping out of your front door.

True evidence based results show that helmets are nothing but a marketing triumph.


References
Hagel BE et al. Effectiveness of helmets in skiers and snowboarders: case-control and case crossover study. BMJ. 2005 Feb 12;330(7487):345.

Macnab AJ et al. Effect of helmet wear on the incidence of head/face and cervical spine injuries in young skiers and snowboarders. Inj Prev. 2002 Dec;8(4):324-7.
Nakaguchi H et al. Snowboard head injury: prospective study in Chino, Nagano, for two seasons from 1995 to 1997. J. Trauma. 1999 Jun;46(6):1066-9.

Sulheim S et al. Helmet use and risk of head injuries in alpine skiers and snowboarders. JAMA. 295(8):919-24, 2006 Feb 22
.

If the original articles are incorrectly summarized in the link then I apologize and I need to read the entire article and write a new post. I think they are summarized correctly as all the other data I have seen supports head injury reduction with helmet use.

Everybody chooses their own risks.
post #217 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
I haven't read many posts in this thread. I don't wear a helmet, and don't worry about head injuries, I was a care giver for two and a half years for a man who suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) skiing without one, so those who suggest I don't know the potential consequences are sadly mistaken, and I bounced my head off of a tree last season and suffered a lasceration of my scalp, so I DO know that accidents can happen to good skiers happen. Why not wear one? Hey, why not wear a kevlar suit whenever you leave the house? Why not avoid skiing altogether, as there is a greatly increased potential for broken bones by engaging in such an activity?

I don't consider it a greater risk to ski trees, than to drive on the freeway with snow on the pavement. The vast majority of TBIs come from car accidents, but I've never heard any helmet wearing skier advocate for wearing a helmet while driving a car. I'm out.
VA, do you wear your seatbelt? If yes, why? If no, why?
Do you clear the ice from your sidewalk? I just put my helmet on and go outside and slip away. I have always liked your posts/opinions, but respectfully disagree with you on this. It is your choice and I always I try to respect individual choice.

I try to reduce my risk in most situations. I agree that driving is the most dangerous activity I do - or the most likely to cause injury. I still drive, but I drive defensively (aggressive, yet defensive) and I wear my seatbelt. If data conclusively found that injuries and/or deaths were significantly reduced by wearing a helmet in the car, I would probable wear one.

I will still ski, which is more dangerous then exercising in the gym and also lots more fun. I won't huck cliffs, ski out of control nor poach out of bounds. I will try to ski in control, avoid other skiers (easier on black trails as they are less of them) and wear my helmet to reduce my risk (among other things). I am more concerned about being clobbered by an out of control skier/boarder then injuring myself

Anybody have a Kevlar vest that weighs less then a pound and is comfortable and not too hot? I want to buy it.
post #218 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdad View Post
If the original articles are incorrectly summarized in the link then I apologize and I need to read the entire article and write a new post. I think they are summarized correctly as all the other data I have seen supports head injury reduction with helmet use.

Everybody chooses their own risks.
BumpDad, nice job on the summary. Although I have been to ski-injury.com many times over the years, I had not read the more recent 2006 study. My thanks to BumpDad for the updates.

I do have a problem with the following Dr. Rick quote because it was out of context. It left you asking 60% safer then what and when.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr, Rick
Studies have shown that helmets reduce the risk of head injury by as much as 60%.
Again for the record, I do wear a helmet some of the time. Some days I wear my helmet and some days I don't. I especially like my helmet when its extremely cold out. My helmet keeps my feet and toes nice and warm without electric socks.

As BumpDad said, Everyone chooses their own risks. Its my personal opinion that people do not evaluate risks properly when wearing a helmet.

I would encourage everyone to think about this when evaluating risk while skiing and riding.

If you are 125, 150, 175, 200, 225, or 250+ lbs adult and you ski/ride at even a reasonable speed into a child that weighs less than 50lbs, your actions can cause traumatic life altering bodily damage and even death to a child. Think about that when you are evaluating risk of your actions. Evaluate the risk to others and not just yourself. Its not all about you and your body armor. One more thing. If you do collide with a child, you might want to look around for the angry parent that is about to cause you severe bodily damage.

Also head and spine injury is not the only bad thing that can happen to you.

Ski and Ride in Control at All Times and have fun out there. Oh yeah, don't forget to smile.
post #219 of 356
It is unquestionably more safe to drive a car with a helmet, however its is highly impractical. For the same reason it is impractical (and expensive)to have car with a full roll cage and 6 point harness, but there is no question that it is safer and would reduce injury and death in cars. Skiing with a helmet affords the user several benefits: its sylish, a place to put your stickers, protect against the elements, and protect against impacts; and best of all its cheap.
post #220 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdad View Post
Helmats do reduce injury rates but not death rates as Dr. Rick had implied.

There's really no need to infer anything from my posts other what I explicitly state:

Head injuries account for about 1/6th of all reported skiing and snowboarding injuries, yet

they are the most frequent reason for hospital admission and the most common cause of death among skiers and snowboarders. Studies have shown that helmets reduce the risk of head injury by as much as 60%.
There is no statistical evidence that helmets reduce the risk of death among skiers and snowboarders, nor have I implied otherwise, but it would be erroneous to conclude that helmets do not reduce the risk of death on that basis. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There may be no statistical evidence that helmets reduce the risk of death because helmets really don't reduce the risk of death, but the negative findings could also be because the data collected to date lacks the statistical power to assess the affect of helmets on death rates.
post #221 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
To everyone that says they rarely fall. Stop being a pussy and ski something that scares you alittle. If your not falling you nowhere near skiing "your limit" then what is the point if your not pushing yourself.
I felt that way once too, back when I was indestructibe. Now I'm older and wiser. Falling at my "skiing limit" would at the very least cause many concurrent unpleasant injuries (dying is not as much fun as some people make it out to be either). A high speed crash may be fun at the time, but the resulting pain and permanent injury are not worth it. No, thanks. I think I'll just continue to take it easy and stay within my limits.
post #222 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I felt that way once too, back when I was indestructibe. Now I'm older and wiser. Falling at my "skiing limit" would at the very least cause many concurrent unpleasant injuries (dying is not as much fun as some people make it out to be either). A high speed crash may be fun at the time, but the resulting pain and permanent injury are not worth it. No, thanks. I think I'll just continue to take it easy and stay within my limits.
indestructable hardly....... Do I fall alot? you betch you but most of it is blowing up at slower speeds in trees.

Also I dont know how I would ski without a helmet , I have worn one since I started so my skiing is not more or less aggresive do to wearing one.

I was skiing with a helmetless Snowbirddevotee at alta early decemeber and was alittle worried several times on what could of happened on a fall. I think in person him skiing with me changed his mind on whether he should get a helmet or not. Maybe he will chime in here.....especailly about the chute we did under supreme lift.
post #223 of 356
I bought helmets for those people around me I care for that dont have one.
post #224 of 356
I have knocked myself out with a helmet it would be foolish for me not to wear one. As you try new things it helps raise your confidence oh and the Giro's come with audio hook ups which are sweet great sound quality and for some reason its more fun to ski with a beat in your head its easier than counting 1,2,1,2,1,2 when i ski mogals lol personal opinion though.
post #225 of 356

Wear mine all the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbbbbb View Post
as title . . . . and do they keep your head and ears warm, or do u still have to wear a hat?
I have never needed my helmet, thankfully, but I have worn it dutifully for years.

At first, it was just to encourage my kids to wear theirs, since they liked to go into the terrain park.

However, after a couple celebraties killed themselves by skiing into trees, I figured it was really a good idea, since I ski in the trees frequently.

To make helmet wearng more fun, I put stickers on the helmet. These sometimes start conversations on the lift.

Three years ago at Alpine Meadows, I was on the chair with my wife. We saw this idiot hit a tabletop at way too high a speed and he overshot the landing by about fifty feet. He crashed hard.

Turns out the idiot was one of my sons. He had a mild concussion, a touch of whiplash, and sore ribs. Lucky he was wearing his helmet. It could have been very serious.

In his defense, he had not been in a terrain park for a year, and Tahoe had enough interesting terrain, to keep him occupied, without going into the parks. He just hit the tabletop, for a lark, because it was on the way down. He did not realize how fast he was going.

oh chute
post #226 of 356
I've been away from the sport for over 15 years and no one was using a helmet back then, so it's disconcerting now for people to tell me how crazy I am for not wearing one.

Since I began reading this thread a coupe of weeks ago, I've tried on a few helmets and not gotten a fit yet. My guess is that I will eventually cave in a get helmets for the whole family.
post #227 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
And how do you know this exactly?

I have a helmet that fits quite well but I definitely do not love it. In fact, I hate every helmet I've ever worn.

The thing about this debate is that we who don't wear helmets can't possibly win the argument.

If I point out (quite accurately in my case) that I've skied 35 years and never had a crash where a helmet would have made any difference at all, you all will simply respond that I'm "due".

If I point that that I hate wearing one because they're too hot, you all will sing in chorus "Oh, you should try MY helmet - it has SO much ventilation!". (My response would be that ANY helmet is hotter than no helmet.)

When I point out that most of my skiing is done in low-traffic places, you'll all remind me that I must have to get on a lift at some point and when I do I'm braving the gauntlet of the runouts.

When I point out that I've made it a practice for years to be extremely aware of traffic around and above me, no matter where or what speed I'm skiing, you'll cluck that "it only takes ONE out-of-control rider to get you".

I wear a helmet on the rare occasions when I know I'm going to be skiing a place or a speed that's riskier than my "normal" skiing. Other than that, I don't and I won't.

If that's anti-Darwinian, you can be comforted by the fact that I'm childless and well beyond the age where I would be contributing to the gene pool anyway.
I love this response.
post #228 of 356
Yay again...had a bad spill yesterday at about 40+mph, hit a roller after a high speed 45* right turn that had a double fall line and was cruddy. Lost it, ended up bouncing off the moutain a few times one of the times was on my face. End result, broken thumb, spine seems to be tweaked in the lumbar region (though doc was not sure, need to go to ortho). But no face or head injuries. My full face helmet was jammed with snow. Had I not had a helmet I would have lost some teeth or broken my nose. And in spite of the violence of the accident and the claim that full face helmets increase the chance for neck injuries, my head and neck are the only places on my body that do not hurt right now
post #229 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
One of the best reviews of helmet use in snow sports I have seen:

http://www.ski-injury.com/helmet.htm

One good point made there is separating data for deaths and for head injuries as related to helmet use. Very fair and unbiased review in my opinion.
One of the best examples of helmet impact ratings and testimonials is here
http://www.telemarktips.com/Helmets.html
post #230 of 356
In Europe
Four years ago or so, There was very few skiers/boarders with helmets, mainly pro´s, but now all have changed. Helmets are SOOO comfortable and warm that I wouldn´t even consider wearing a hat again. And of course protection. First time I had an helmet on (Previous generation full rossi race helmet) I hit some tractor tracks in Austria, and fell so hard that my head ached for two days afterwards. I thanked whomever up there that I had sense to buy that, because I don´t even want to know what would have happened if I hadn´t one on my head.
Half a month ago I was in Are, Sweden, and some 75% of all people there wore a helmet, maybe more.
Helmets ROCK all the way. <--two of them
post #231 of 356
Hey maybe someday you will be required to wear a helmet... the legal world is evolving on this:

From the SkiLaw.com site: http://www.skilaw.com/skilawsurvey.html

"...The growth in helmet use on the slopes, and in the supporting research, has reached a point where providing and expecting helmet use, particularly in the children's ski school context, fairly defines operator reasonable care. "
post #232 of 356
Then it would also be reasonable you be required to wear one on the bus, on the sidewalk, in your car, on a train, an airplane ,up the escalator and down the stairs.
Why mess around ? Danger is everywhere You would be foolish not to show some personal responsibility here. Only fools take risks they can prevent. Maybe we should just mount them on the heads of newborns and make them manditory from that point on?
Let's be reasonable here .Life is just so scary we must protect the foolhardy from endangering themselves.
post #233 of 356
Garry, while that is a bit nuts, there is no doubt in my mind that many a life would be saved had they been in full armor and helmet. But we live our lives on the edge, we smoke, drink, do drugs, practice unsafe sex, the gamble is there. But in those instances where the risk is pronounced like skiing a 45* slope at 50mph it might not be considered overkill to wear a helmet even if it barely makes a difference.
post #234 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy View Post
Garry, while that is a bit nuts, there is no doubt in my mind that many a life would be saved had they been in full armor and helmet. But we live our lives on the edge, we smoke, drink, do drugs, practice unsafe sex, the gamble is there. But in those instances where the risk is pronounced like skiing a 45* slope at 50mph it might not be considered overkill to wear a helmet even if it barely makes a difference.
Sounds reasonable to me. Measure your risk and defend yourself against it.
post #235 of 356
I'd wear one just for the practical qualitys of it. when skiing in really deep snow, like I do alot up here at powder king. they are great for keeping your goggles on your head. they don't get soaked when you go in for lunch. I always hated putting that wet hat back on after all the snow melts. i have skied in one at -30 celsius, no liner just goggles and a neck and face warmer. When tree skiing and you get a little to close maybe hit a small branch, no big deal. regardless of wether or not it will save me, when i crash at 70 mph. I wear one just for those reasons, you should too.
post #236 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Then it would also be reasonable you be required to wear one on the bus, on the sidewalk, in your car, on a train, an airplane ,up the escalator and down the stairs.
Why mess around ? Danger is everywhere You would be foolish not to show some personal responsibility here. Only fools take risks they can prevent. Maybe we should just mount them on the heads of newborns and make them manditory from that point on?
Let's be reasonable here .Life is just so scary we must protect the foolhardy from endangering themselves.

Safety in all aspects of our lives is constantly evolving.... There used to be a time when cars did not have safety glass windows and people were being impaled on broken glass. Now we don't even give safety glass a second thought.

If a child suffered a head injury during a ski class, the operator might find it difficult now to defend against not requiring a helmet. Things change.

It's what we got lawyers for... to keep us up to date and in line.

.... My helmet has saved me a few times from chair lift bars.... and I keep hitting my head on the cross bar of my car's ski rack (thankfully I usually have my helmet on). Maybe clumsy guys like me need them. I didn't really start wearing a seatbelt until after I had an in the car ballistic experience after being hit by another driver.

As I get older I have become a safety freak in skiing and hiking. Experience is a hard teacher.
post #237 of 356
One a**hole hit me with his ski pole (accidentally).He was coming down the hill too fast and stopped just before the lift gates. He lost balance and hit me in the head. I had my helmet on, and he broke my sliding vent cover. Of course he said that he is sorry and so on, also payed some money for new part of helmet. I think I would have a nasty bruise on my head if the helmet would not been on my head.
People are fighting here over a simple matter. Of course no helmet can save you if you are going like 100 km per hour and hit the tractor. No one said it will. It CAN reduce the risk. You can have a latest Volvo XC90 with 14 air bags, they will not save you if you have been hit by a truck at full speed.
Its the smaller collisions, in where you would usually have fractured ribcage or something worse. Its better to have your seatbelt closed and SRS in your car. Same guys always fight against ABS brakes, ESP traction control etc.

I just prefer to wear a helmet over stitches I otherwise would have.
post #238 of 356
Up to now I did my best to avoid a helmet since the one initially bought lacked proper ventilation. Finally got over it and bought a replacement, telling myself it probably won't see use.
Took it along yesterday while skiing Verbier and got used to it. On the last decent I witnessed a drunken lady accidentally doing a sort of corked spread eagle over a terrain feature/sharp drop and hitting really hard on her forehead. She was NOT wearing a helmet. After we provided first aid she finally regained consciousness. She couldn't even remember where she was at and ended up being evacuated by air rescue to the cantonale hospital.

That one REALLY made me reconsidering my previous 'helmets are for gapers' attitude, will likely always wear one in the future except for going AT maybe.
post #239 of 356
After re-reading this thread for the 12th time, I've completely changed my mind. Helmets are for wimps.
post #240 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
to anyone who skis with out a helmet on......come skis with me for a day. Your opinion on how and wheather should wear a helmet or not will change.

To everyone that says they rarely fall. Stop being a pussy and ski something that scares you alittle. If your not falling you nowhere near skiing "your limit" then what is the point if your not pushing yourself.
Now, Bushwacker, you've managed to insult me. I didn't care what most others said, but you, well, I didn't think you were so judgmental. You've never seen me ski, but I suspect you have a good grasp of the kind of skier I am, which is why I had always wished we'd be able to get together at Jay sometime (or Snowbird).

Guess Bob Peters, VA, Lars and I are going to have to ski together from now on, since we seem to have lost our status here and have been promoted to just being brain-dead candidates for Darwinism. But, if we're already brain dead, then we don't need helmets after all, I guess. Plus, I'm pretty sure that all of us skiing together would be an awesome time!

I am reminded of why I never get into the helmet debates. So many who wear them are so judgmental of people who DON'T wear them. It's like attending a religious meeting and having someone try to "save" me.

Thatsagirl
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