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# Stance width - Page 4

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB For me passive versus active is about drawing an arbitrary line in the sand. I see it as a blending of how much energy outside of ourselves we want to harness, versus how much of our own energy we want to put into the equation. It is a sliding scale as I see it. One can't exist without the other.
Howver, that arbitrary line that is critical to the defining "good" vs "bad" technique. I don't believe that it can be dismissed so easily.

Yes, the steeps require a shorter turn radius. Yes, you will rotate the skis. At issue is the "how". It has been reported in various places that the phantom move can be used in such a way as to create a hockey stop. That defines rotation.

It is also reported that pivot slips can be used to create a hockey stop.

That implies that both techniques will be effective at shortening turn radius. There is no question of that.

However, the tension within the musculature differs in a very real way, and what is at issue are two things:

1) whether or not we can create a definition that identifies which type of rotation we are talking about
2) whether it is meaningful to do so.

I believe it is meaningful, and there is a substantive difference between the two.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Howver, that arbitrary line that is critical to the defining "good" vs "bad" technique. I don't believe that it can be dismissed so easily. Yes, the steeps require a shorter turn radius. Yes, you will rotate the skis. At issue is the "how". It has been reported in various places that the phantom move can be used in such a way as to create a hockey stop. That defines rotation. It is also reported that pivot slips can be used to create a hockey stop. That implies that both techniques will be effective at shortening turn radius. There is no question of that. However, the tension within the musculature differs in a very real way, and what is at issue are two things: 1) whether or not we can create a definition that identifies which type of rotation we are talking about 2) whether it is meaningful to do so. I believe it is meaningful, and there is a substantive difference between the two.
Aren't you really talking about outcomes here? further, does the tension within the musculature always differ in a real way or is it more how it is applied that differs. Take what Rick said about how the effort has different outcomes depending on how the ski is edged. Could be the same effort within the muscle, but this effort might have different outcomes depending on the specific intermusclature cooperation we utilize. At least that is how I see it. This is why I identify so well with differentiating between the outcomes of movement patterns that guide the skis, versus the outcomes from the movement patterns that steer the skis, even though we may have equal muscle tension in the muscles that provide rotation in both.

Or like the difference between WS and simple steering. Could be the same tension in the muscles responsible for rotation, but the outcome is very different because want a different outcome so we apply the tension differently. Though I'm a noob when it comes to waisteering, I see it as the utilization of the mechanism of stride mechanics as a transmission to harness our waist energy and drive it down to the skis without the obvious movement of stride mechanics. Kinda like the process is reversed.

This is why effective blending is so important to understand. Because it leads us to how we can use the isolated muscles and skills to create powerfull synergism in our skiing.

For me in the end it all boils down to what we intend to do with our rotary as opposed to whether we are using rotary or not. My own humble opinion of course.

P.S. I don't like to use good versus bad, but rather like to understand effective versus less effective. Is it ever bad if is what we intended to do?
Quote:
 P.S. I don't like to use good versus bad, but rather like to understand effective versus less effective. Is it ever bad if is what we intended to do?
Well my Aunt Sadie used to say that the path to hell was paved with good intentions. JK Bolter
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gary Dranow Keep in mind this is a very mild example of the kind of attack foisted at Epic, PSIA (these I've seen) and I hear others regularly (these I've intentionally ignored or avoided).
Gary, for years HH and PMTS were completely trashed here on Epic. Countless times I've read that HH is all marketing without any substance. Things said like PMTS can't possibly work in the powder, bumps, etc... And much of this from high level PSIA instructors. Can you really blame the man for fighting back? Regardless of what the prevailing opinion of HH on Epic is, I know that he is one heck of an instructor/coach and a great guy to hang out with.

On another note, I think the discussions here have gotten more interesting as race coaches have become more involved. However, both you and Rick have been chased away in the past. Will it happen again? There are so many contradictory opinions posted on epic as fact. Quite frankly, that's one of the advantages of the PMTS only site. All the contradictory advice is eliminated and the student is left with crystal clear path to follow.
Max, that doesn't make the path absolutely right. Or the only one. Nor does it make the path absolutely wrong.

The great thing about debate, about differing ideas, is that if people are open minded enough, everyone can learn, everyone can gain from it. If you are in a dictatorship, where debate is stifled, then people only learn what they are told they have to learn. (likewise, if you only watch CNN to get your news, you have a very limited, and slightly twisted view of the world)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB For me in the end it all boils down to what we intend to do with our rotary as opposed to whether we are using rotary or not.
Exactly. People should stop focusing so much on what their femurs are doing in their hip sockets. Yea, they rotate in there. Probably a lot more than people realize. You have too many other more important things to think about other than whether or not your femurs are rotating in your hip sockets. And the "intent" of what you are trying to do, is indeed the critical factor. Intention drives dozens or hundreds of muscle activations, contractions, relaxations, tensions, etc..in a coordinated fashion...much of it at a very subconscious level.

If you're trying to twist your legs to steer your skis, that is an intention. It might be good in some cases and might be bad in others. It might be good in certain parts of a turn and bad in others. Its not a simple issue. Its a skill that is sometimes needed. Unfortunately it is often overused by skiers in survival mode.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Gary, for years HH and PMTS were completely trashed here on Epic. Countless times I've read that HH is all marketing without any substance. Things said like PMTS can't possibly work in the powder, bumps, etc... And much of this from high level PSIA instructors. Can you really blame the man for fighting back?
Max, with all due respect, the past few weeks have shown 20x as much anti-TTS bashing over on the RS forum compared to HH bashing here. Note also that people here generally do not bash against PMTS as a whole, they bash against HH the man. HH bashes against almost all other systems outside of PMTS. Whatever has occurred in the past is past. I wasn't here, I don't really care. What you're basically saying above is that HH should have permission to hold a grudge and apply his resentment towards everything and everyone that is either involved with Epic or not part of the PMTS fold.

From what I have observed, there are a lot of smart people on Epic, some of them completely banned from RS, who actually have a high degree of respect for HH's technical competency.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Max, with all due respect, the past few weeks have shown 20x as much anti-TTS bashing over on the RS forum compared to HH bashing here.
Do a google search of the Epic forums. The bashing goes back for years. What's taken place over the last 2 weeks isn't representative of the typical Epic PMTS post.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Gary, for years HH and PMTS were completely trashed here on Epic. Countless times I've read that HH is all marketing without any substance. Things said like PMTS can't possibly work in the powder, bumps, etc... And much of this from high level PSIA instructors. Can you really blame the man for fighting back? Regardless of what the prevailing opinion of HH on Epic is, I know that he is one heck of an instructor/coach and a great guy to hang out with. On another note, I think the discussions here have gotten more interesting as race coaches have become more involved. However, both you and Rick have been chased away in the past. Will it happen again? There are so many contradictory opinions posted on epic as fact. Quite frankly, that's one of the advantages of the PMTS only site. All the contradictory advice is eliminated and the student is left with crystal clear path to follow.
Max there is a way to fight back and way not to. Being a business guy for over 30 years one learns this (or at least I like to believe I have).

To your other point the beauty of Epic is that it IS multi-disciplinary as there are PSIA, USSA, CSIA, MSRT, PMTS and other systems represented. Through the process of gaining some commonality on various schools of thought, differing POV's and concepts, through vigorous discussions expands everyone's context. Providing there is a willingness to understand and investigate. Even disagreement fosters better understanding and allows some new ideas or at least ways of presenting ideas come to light.

This is an open society with free exchange of ideas (popular or not). If some folks get confused they can always sort it out if they really want to. In the closed environment there just isn't room for creativity and synergy but for those who like or need that kind of structure they know where to go. Or they can pick the system they like best and ignore the rest but still be open to investigate new ideas. As I said, with effort confusion can always be transcended as long as all parties play fair.

Having been the focus of a lot of personal attacks myself I know what it feels like. Yet I really try not to take to heart and get overly aggressive in my response (admittedly I have and its never worked in my favor).

My rant is over. I hope that I can be a productive part of Epic that some members find value in what I share. I'm passionate about ski racing and my only purpose is to encourage and foster that community. I definitely put my money where my mouth is
Max, I'm not interested in reading about historical bashing. Again, you're just holding open an old family feud that doesn't really need to be there. The only way to get rid of an old feud like that is to forgive and forget.

Rick was banned from RS? Are you kidding me? He must be one of the most neutral and politically correct posters on here, not to mention one of the most knowledgable and certainly worthy of HH's respect.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter Well my Aunt Sadie used to say that the path to hell was paved with good intentions. JK Bolter
I guess I'll see you later on down the road Bolter.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Max, I'm not interested in reading about historical bashing. Again, you're just holding open an old family feud that doesn't really need to be there. The only way to get rid of an old feud like that is to forgive and forget. Rick was banned from RS? Are you kidding me? He must be one of the most neutral and politically correct posters on here, not to mention one of the most knowledgable and certainly worthy of HH's respect.
He's not the only one That is what got my panties in a bunch in the first place :
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Aren't you really talking about outcomes here? further, does the tension within the musculature always differ in a real way or is it more how it is applied that differs.
In the case of a hockey stop, I believe it differs in both ways. It has been reported that an aggressive phantom move will create a hockey stop, and obviously, a pivot slip can. They are remarkably different movement patterns, and the coordination of the muscles is WAY different. (I'd personally love to see video footage of each method for comparison purposes.)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Take what Rick said about how the effort has different outcomes depending on how the ski is edged. Could be the same effort within the muscle, but this effort might have different outcomes depending on the specific intermusclature cooperation we utilize. At least that is how I see it. This is why I identify so well with differentiating between the outcomes of movement patterns that guide the skis, versus the outcomes from the movement patterns that steer the skis, even though we may have equal muscle tension in the muscles that provide rotation in both.
I don't see any distinction between guiding and steering.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB This is why effective blending is so important to understand. Because it leads us to how we can use the isolated muscles and skills to create powerfull synergism in our skiing. For me in the end it all boils down to what we intend to do with our rotary as opposed to whether we are using rotary or not. My own humble opinion of course.
It is important first to establish precisely what it is that we are blending. If I am blending a pivot slip with edging that is one thing. If I am blending recentering/balance movements with edging that is another.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB P.S. I don't like to use good versus bad, but rather like to understand effective versus less effective. Is it ever bad if is what we intended to do?
Sure it is. It could be a huge mistake.
Well, I've never been taught an official phantom move, but I do know that I will have younger kids pickup the inside ski when learning to hockey stop to expedite the process. Then I will have them just lighten the inside ski, and then with kids that came to me with a wedge, I may have them try the same movements, just really, really slowly, and usually a nice skidded parallel turn happens. If a phantom move results in a skidded hockey stop then the skier has overcome the ski/snow interaction with rotational energy.

I don't really know what to tell you BigE. I see basic movements applied in many different contexts and blendings, resulting in many different outcomes, all driven by the differing intent at the time.

Older psia terms:

Guiding = movements that do not overcome the ski/snow interaction.
Steering = movements that do overcome the ski/snow interaction.

Makes perfect sense to me. Both of these can have very similar rotational effort within the blending, but the rotational effort does not have the same priority.
A few clarifications... Its interesting that I think Lito Flores is actually the one that originally termed the name "phantom move". HH gives credit to him in his video and Lito talks about his concept of phantom move in his book. My understanding is that the phantom move is more about the lightening of the inside ski, as opposed to the "tipping". The tipping MIGHT cause a rotation to occurr via the kinetic chain...but it should be understood now that HH and nobody on the PMTS team will ever admit to this or describe this as an outcome. That may or may not be what others outside of PMTS think happens via tipping the inside ski and the kinetic chain...and I'm not even sure myself..but just want to clarify...I do not think that is the official position of PMTS. PMTS uses tipping to get the CM inside via the kinetic chain.

The phantom move is called this because in expert skiing, nobody should be lifting their inside ski in the air. The way Lito describes it is that an expert skier can simply relax all the muscles in her inside leg, which transfers pressure instantly to the outside ski, yet a casual observer can not see any visible indication that this has occurred. Thus, the "phantom move". A guru can watch and notice the snow spray and other things to determine outside ski dominance, but in off piste and non-racing situations its not always that easy to tell that a skier has moved nearly all weight/pressure to the outside ski. It rather looks like they are standing on both feet, but the secret hidden, hard to see "phantom" move is the relaxing of the muscles completely to the point that the skier is no longer standing on that leg but is using almost entirely the other one..even though everything continues to appear otherwise... That is why they call it the "phantom" move as a concept. Its an action which expert skiers have been using for years, but casual observers will not be able to see it.

I do not think the phantom move has anything to do with rotation.

The whole tipping the free ski and pulling it back is an extension to the basic idea of the phantom move. (the super phantom perhaps?). I'm a little rusty on the exact terminology, but I do know that the "INTENT" of PMTS skiers everywhere is not to use this to result in steered turns. Whether or not they actually do steer their turns is a highly controversial and debatable subject, but that is most definitely not their "intent".
BTS: Here is a description that claims very differently. Although the phantom move in the following definition has tipping.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...374#post352374
Read Lito's book.

Lito's description of the phantom move is not about tipping. He does later discuss tipping as a separate thing. Note that tipping is very visual, there is absolutely nothing "phantom" about it. However, HH has adopted this method and made it a fundamental part of PMTS along with tipping. And it is true that when people discuss the phantom move, they are usually referring to both the lightening of the inside foot as well as the tipping action. However, I do not believe that was the original intention when Lito came up with the concept.

Regarding John Mason's post, I will read it more fully later, there is a lot there. I do not always agree with everything he says and he is not an official representive of PMTS I might add, he's just a very enthusiastic PMTS skier who has been working at it a long time and has a technically oriented mind.

One thing I will point out is that his description talks about getting rotation out of the ski through the inside foot tipping specifically by not allowing the outside ski to also tip. His point is that if the inside ski is tipped and the outside foot is blocked from being tipped, it will rotate instead.

I've never heard HH advocate such a thing...but I would love to see some threads where he does.
You guys are making it too complicated. Are you trying to turn your skis by turning your feet (toes left or right)? If yes, then that's what PMTS avoids.

Personally, when making repeated turns back and forth across the fall line, I like to use arcing to turn the skis with no rotary applied to the skis, and apply just enough rotation to turn my lower body at a rate that matches the rate the skis are turning at.

Wasn't this supposed to be about stance width? What do you think about the idea of parallel planes a fixed distance apart?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 A few clarifications... Its interesting that I think Lito Flores is actually the one that originally termed the name "phantom move".
How did you miss this?

Page 86 of Breakthrough on the New Skis 3

Quote:
 I am indebted to my friend, Harald Harb, one of the most creative ski coaches of our time, not just for the term phantom edging, but for pointing out the importance of this subtle move. As far as I know, Harald is the first coach anywhere to focus on this phantom action of the light foot.
I could have sworn that HH gave credit to Lito in his video (shrug). Oh well.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Read Lito's book. Lito's description of the phantom move is not about tipping.
Take a look at page 91.

Quote:
 You want to turn right, so you get your weight off your right foot and ski, and with that foot free, it's no sweat to pull it inward and tilt it over in the phantom edging move
That's tipping.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 I could have sworn that HH gave credit to Lito in his video (shrug). Oh well.
About 18 minutes into Video 2 when Harald Harb is talking about the phantom move he says,

Quote:
 My friend, Lito Tejada-Flores, the author of Breakthrough on Skis, has adopted it in his teaching, and refers to it as phantom edging.
ok man. Fine. HH made the term. My other comments about it are more interesting anyway
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 One thing I will point out is that his description talks about getting rotation out of the ski through the inside foot tipping specifically by not allowing the outside ski to also tip. His point is that if the inside ski is tipped and the outside foot is blocked from being tipped, it will rotate instead. I've never heard HH advocate such a thing...but I would love to see some threads where he does.
This is the mechanism of the "brushed carve".

At one point this was considered a low level skill. I recall him saying something like "don't worry if you are not carving, so long as you are doing the primary movements". Later he has elevated it to an advanced skill, that is best used in mogul skiing

Here is my understanding of how it works.

When you lift the leg, you block the pelvis. Now tipping and pulling the inside foot back will transmit a torque up the kinetic chain which will result in the rotation of the skier around their CM (think weightless in space). A functional tension in the core and pelvic girdle/hips/legs is necessary so that the energy of pulling the foot back is not dissipated into bending the body...

If the above conditions are met, then pulling the inside foot back while the edge is at less than critical angle will create the "brushed carve", and it may look like upper body rotation. If you do it aggressively, you'll rotate into a hockey stop. Obviously with a MUCH different tension in the body than you'd have with a pivot slip.

Obviously, to me anyway, this phantom edging/phantom move is a rotary balancing and recentering movement. The CM never moves outside of the base of support during the "brushed carve". It is the PMTS equivalent to a wedge turn -- release without being at critical edge angle.

A teaching progression that began with passive weight shift in a wedge turn could readily and quickly move into the brushed carve.
I don't want to be cornered here into defending or correcting your analysis of PMTS movements and I am certainly not a trained expert in PMTS either, but BigE I would only suggest that you present this analysis of PMTS to HH himself and see where it gets you. I've never heard HH present it this way and I doubt that its a completely correct analysis. I've never ever heard HH advocate using any kind of rotation as an "intent".

That isn't to say it isn't happening necessarily, but we were talking a few posts back about "intent". I have never heard them talk about using the phantom move in particular with the intent to cause rotation. What you are suggesting is like the opposite of gait mechanics and is not what they do in PMTS. They use the phantom to move their CM inside. That involves releasing the old outside ski to stand on the new one, tipping the new inside ski and as the turn progresses, pulling it back. The purpose of pulling it back is to avoid excessive inside tip lead by my understanding, not to create rotation.

What the PMTS skiers are doing is not so different from what other people around here are doing, its mostly just the language being used and perhaps a few finer points where PMTS does not allow them to do turn init pivots, so they take a few actions to prevent that from happening.

Also, if you pressed HH to see if a brushed carve is defined as a skidded out turn caused by rotation he would probably get angry and kick you off his site. Try it. :-)

The only people that are knowledgeable enough to clarify this point do not spend any time on Epic.

good luck
Are you kidding? I was at realskiers once, and for quite some time. My simple minded "what's wrong with the wedge" was so poorly received (and not by HH) that I voluntarily stopped posting there.... Since then, I believe that I'm "persona non-grata", due to some of my postings here. I've checked, and see that I have not formally been banned.

BTS, I understand the intent is to create movement of the CM inside through a release move and for the stance leg to mimic the edging actions of the free leg. I have read Lito's descriptions ( I have the book ).

None of those descriptions can account for hockey stop rotation nor can it account for the instruction to continue using the phantom move/edging with foot pull back while airborne to make short turns on the steep. John Masons post appears very accurate.

I recall a post by HH himself on rotation at realskiers, but due to the non-archiving server, it was lost. He plainly stated what kind of rotation there was in PMTS,and that it most certainly exists. He also plainly stated that the technique does not focus on the skier directly creating the rotation through direct use of the hips/femurs like pivot slips etc....

I find the instruction to use the phantom move in the airborne scenario very interesting, because when you ARE airborne, you ARE weightless.

The inside foot pull back will necessarily rotate your body around the CM , which pull the outside half forwards at the same time. That is clearly a re-centering move and clearly rotation.

IMO, the focus of the technique is to utilize balancing movements in response to changes in skier position. I believe that the general consensus amongst PMTSers is that utilizing rotation such as pivot slips is very deleterious to one's state of balance, and especially ineffective when applied to casual skiers.
BigE,

The lightening and pulling back of the inside foot cannot create the kind of force that will rotate a body (much less on skis that are slightly edged). Besides, good skiers don't even pull the foot back, they just hold it there and don't allow it to slip forward.

I think the pressure on the shovel is a far greater force that will allow you to release some of the tail and start doing a brushed carve.

As for the airborne phantom move - physics simply do not support it. There is no way a body is going to start a rotation by simply pulling one foot back a few inches.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by TomB BigE, The lightening and pulling back of the inside foot cannot create the kind of force that will rotate a body (much less on skis that are slightly edged). Besides, good skiers don't even pull the foot back, they just hold it there and don't allow it to slip forward. I think the pressure on the shovel is a far greater force that will allow you to release some of the tail and start doing a brushed carve. As for the airborne phantom move - physics simply do not support it. There is no way a body is going to start a rotation by simply pulling one foot back a few inches.
TomB,

What I am strongly advocating here is that there is a strong rotary component to pulling back the inside foot. The instructions are to continue pulling back the inside foot through the entire turn.

Such an instruction implies that the inside foot is attempting to move forwards through the entire turn, and is being kept in place by constantly pulling it back.

As I described in the Austrians thread, this is a common ice skating move, which does involve much rotation. Yes there is also a benefit to shortening the turn radius on ice skates by closing the longitudinal gap, but the rotation component cannot be ignored.

In fact, skaters learn to spin by throwing their hands around the body to initiate the spin and then bringing the hands into the body to increase the speed of rotation. The small mass of the hands/arms is nothing when compared to a leg with ski boot.

The physics of the airborne move precisely support the rotary effect. Watch anyone that has caught air in the backseat windmilling their arms.
Sorry, I don't think I'm with you about PMTS on this one BigE, but its an interesting discussion nonetheless with regards to the comparisons to ice skating.
You want hockey stop without applying rotation?
I'll give you hockey stop without applying rotation.
Tip the skis without steering to start a left turn. They start to carve a turn. Put your weight on the tips which are on your left side. The tips dig in and the tails release the SNOW torques you around. When your skis are perpendicular to the fall line or your direction of travel, readjust your weight fore and aft and your tipping angle to stop where you want.
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