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Bode Miller Ski lessons

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
I don't know how many of you have seen this, but Bode Miller and one of his coaches produced an instructional ski video for Comcast OnDemand last year. There are four 20 minute instructional ski videos. They are now online and free to watch at sportskool.com. To view the full videos you need to create a free user account at sportskool.com

http://www.sportskool.com

After logging in with the new account, go to the following link:

http://www.sportskool.com/videoPlaye...ng_400x300.wmv

Enjoy

ps - If you don't create a user account, then you can view a minute or so of the video, but if you want to see the full 20 minutes of each one you need to create the account and login first.
post #2 of 27
hmmm! I'll have to sign on and watch the Lot one day.
But lookee there, he's got that Italian A-frame with his knees going (but the skis are mostly parallel). Not as pretty as the Italians.
Got the Flappy Jacket thing going, too.

Holy Tip Lead Batman! He's really shuffling those feet back and forth, every turn. Likes to get those hips inside and low as early as possible.

They've gone the opposite way to our Japanese friend in the white suit with the ankles, they are flexed pretty much all the time, just the degree of flex changes.

Jeez his skis look strong though, right from the start of the turn and right through.
post #3 of 27
He repeatedly has his outside ski lift off the snow and ends up on his inside ski. Just like Sogard. It's embarassing that the US can't field better racers and instructors. (Trying for a sarcasm smiley but it's not inserting.) I liked the production values, though.
post #4 of 27
We have become over critical here at epic with our MA's. Not even Bode can crank out his best turns without our sharp eyes finding flaws in technique and dressing. I bet the japanese and bode could outrun anybody here at this forum.... skiing, not typing .

Anyway, the production is pre Bodes Atomic days. He seems to be using Rossignols so that makes this vide at least 3y old doesent it! Look how far we have come in just 3 years.... parallel shafts being maybe the most visual change in style.

Here are some notes I made while I watched the video on Carving:

- Advance inside ski so that you can drop inside hip and create bigger edge angles..... tip lead did not seem to be a very big issue back then
- Keep you head and shoulders level....
- Create pressure on your outside ski... active/passive weight shift???
- Level the shoulders and hipps to keep lateral balance...
- Drop the outside shoulder and hip, raise the inside shoulder and hip...

Here are their 5 key elements:
1 Alignment and extention over new ski through pole plant
2 Use ancle flexion to pressure front of boots to pressure showel of ski
3 Knee roll in to create edge angles for good grip
4 Hipps drop in to back and support knees and ensure edge hold
5 Shoulders and head stay at level to maintain balance

There was one contradiction which is probably be a production flaw. In one sequece they say: - Turn hipps outwards allowing for larger angles! This is not in line with anything they say because earlier they claim that you should drop your hip into the turn to back your knees up but I bet there are people that read it and think its the correct way to do it.

Nice production and well made video. Thanks for pointing it out to uss.
post #5 of 27
To be clear, I was being tongue-in-cheek. Plus, Bode could probably outtype me.
post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 
I agree his ankles are bent a lot. A lot of it is forward lean in the boots more so than a dorsiflexion action on his part. But in his discussion he went on at quite some length about his importance of keeping the ankles flexed, and beginning turns on the tongue of the boot, etc..
post #7 of 27
1) I've found the best ways to keep the hips over the feet is to pull the feet back under the hips. Flexing the ankles means pulling the feet back, anyway, those are the words that work for me.

2) The best forward lean of the boots varies for different individuals. Some folks ski better with boots with more forward lean. Other folks with different skeletal geometry find that more forward lean hinders their skiing. More is not always better. "...something the racers spend a lot of time figuring out is the amount of angle they need on their ski and in their boots...."

3) Flexing the knees into the turn doesn't work with the arthritis in my knees. What works better for me is to press the outside foot ankle into the side of the boot for more ski angle on the snow. I keep my knees flexed but straight laterally. Doesn't bending the flexed knees sideways pre-load the ligaments and they'll tear more easily if something is hit?

4) Many skiers always have their inside foot farther forward than Bode is showing. For many of us, pulling the inside foot back, way back, results in the foot in the right position and the feet under the hips for proper fore/aft weight distribution. Pulling the inside foot back while pushing the inside hip and shoulder & arm forward sounds contradictory, but works very well for most. The body will be properly countered (counter facing) and in balance.

5) Note how close together Bode's knees are. No room for a basketball there. His feet are vertically separated to make room for the angulation, and sometimes a bit apart on the transition between turns, but not forced apart in the turn. Also, not a word about steering the ski. Just put the ski on edge and let it turn you.

6) For counter balancing...dropping the outside shoulder & hip...a gizmo that is a real help is Chris Braisby's The SKI COACH. I trust few gadgets, but this one works as described to help folks learn counter balancing.

Bode Miller is not a good technical skier. He's won some exciting World Cup races because of his guts and athleticism. For better technical skiing, and often better results, look at Benni Raich and Georgio Rocca. Among the women, look at Nicole Hosp and Marlies Schild. Niki Hosp especially shows the still upper body and head in the recent Levi, Finland, WC slalom race. Austrian Sport1.at has videos of the WC races. I think the slalom races best show form that recreational skiers can use. In the Sportskool vid, Bode was making GS turns, but not at GS speeds. GS can be up to 40 mph these days, and the skiers need form to handle forces that don't apply to most of us. All recreational skiers can ski better using the fundamentals the racers are using.

http://video.sport1.at/index.php?view=1906
Registration is needed. The site is in German, so Google translating might be a help.


Ken
post #8 of 27
but rocca learnt in italy and they teach teh dreaded snowplow progression.... so he must be an intermediate surely
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Bode Miller is not a good technical skier. He's won some exciting World Cup races because of his guts and athleticism.
This completely cracks me up. I wouldn't necessarily use a lot of what he does as the model for developing skiers, and he does do some things that people with less athletic ability couldn't get away with, but he is an absolutely awesome technical skier. One who would finish more races and probably have better overall results if he skied differently, yes, but then he wouldn't have given us all the memories he has in that case.

I actually have used PMTS with kid #1's skiing, I think Harb has a great path laid out for developing strong technical skills as a skier. Bode gets bashed by people here too -- Bode can't ski bumps, Bode can't ski soft snow -- and it's all mystifying to me. Tiger Woods now imo has a really ugly golf swing, but you know what? I'd take it. And I do respect it as technically quite sound.
post #10 of 27
BTS683, great link, thanks, really enjoyed watching those.

TDK6, I wasn't sure what you meant in your post: are you saying that some of the things Bode does are now "out of fashion", or that there are now generally accepted better ways of making those moves, or both?

Thanks
post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I agree his ankles are bent a lot. A lot of it is forward lean in the boots more so than a dorsiflexion action on his part. But in his discussion he went on at quite some length about his importance of keeping the ankles flexed, and beginning turns on the tongue of the boot, etc..
Of course, who knows how much that forward lean is offset by a negative ramp angle? I don't know anything about Bode's boot setup; perhaps one of our boot gurus could help us out here?
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
Holy Tip Lead Batman! He's really shuffling those feet back and forth, every turn. Likes to get those hips inside and low as early as possible.
As he starts each turn with high angles of leg inclination, he will establish a natural tip lead early in the turn - because of that effect that is best demonstrated by standing sideways on a flight of stairs and lifting one foot up a step. This may look like a deliberate "shuffling" but it is probably just a natural consequence of high edge angles early in the turn.

Interestingly, Bode and Phil also talk about "advancing the inside hip" - suggesting that "skiing into a countered position" is something that happens pretty quickly, quite near the beginning of the turn, in Bode's skiing.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman1 View Post
BTS683, great link, thanks, really enjoyed watching those.

TDK6, I wasn't sure what you meant in your post: are you saying that some of the things Bode does are now "out of fashion", or that there are now generally accepted better ways of making those moves, or both?

Thanks
I was actually just refering to ant's A-frame remark. And ant is correct in that sence that A-frame is considered outdated today. We need to ski with parallel shafts. But I really liked the video and except for the A-frame I have no objections to what they show us. I think the A-frame is just an improvement that came along two years ago and just an indication that skiing is evolving constantly. The core principles of skiing is however still intact and nothing has changed since they made the video.

There has also been a lot of talk about no tip lead lately and here bode is telling us to push our inside ski forward!!!
post #14 of 27
H'mmm A Bode lesson (tongue in cheek) let's see

1. Drink mondo quantities of booze to the point of Not giving a damn bout anything/anyone

2. Pick up bimbos for motivational enhancement , especially the evening before major events

3. Utter totally nonsensical commentery 24/7 to anyone who'll listen

4. while making sure to DISS ANY system that gave him support throughout his 'UNKNOWN" period

5. And finally provide the best image to the world of what a drunken , slovenly , american spoiled brat looks like .

Gee thanx bodester

I'll pass

ALL that said the guy has TALENT------- but frankly I DONT GIVE A DAMN
post #15 of 27
TDK6, thanks for your feedback. Makes sense to me. I'm finding this discussion and a number of other threads very interesting. Bode does some things in the vids that, reading these forums, seem to be very out of fashion and yet it looks pretty good to me.

Regarding moves being out of fashion, I won't mention specific technical points, as they have been extensively discussed in other threads, but it seems to me - as you say - that the fundamentals of skiing haven't changed - even if today's skis allow one some different options (at least in certain circumstances, especially piste). There seems to be almost an obsession with doing things "a certain way". Yet - for example - I can choose to skid or carve, and what I choose to do is up to me. Because something isn't efficient or fashionable in my view doesn't mean one should be burned at the stake for doing it. Hopefully we can understand the options open to us as we ski and be able to perform appropriate moves for our purpose, whether that purpose is skiing efficiently, or simply having fun (inefficiently!).

The book that really made things click for me was "Skilful Skiing", by John Shedden (who I think Martin knows well). It's an excellent little book and I still often refer to it. For me, this book clearly expresses a good deal of the underlying truths behind skiing and gave me understanding of what I was really doing, and why. Although equipment has changed, the fundamentals in this book are, I believe, still valid, despite being written in 1982. We still pressure, edge, and (albeit the need is much less with short radius skis) sometimes turn the skis, whilst balancing on them. And certain physical positions and movements help us in doing those things.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
There was one contradiction which is probably be a production flaw. In one sequece they say: - Turn hipps outwards allowing for larger angles! This is not in line with anything they say because earlier they claim that you should drop your hip into the turn to back your knees up but I bet there are people that read it and think its the correct way to do it.

Nice production and well made video. Thanks for pointing it out to uss.
I see no contradiction. You can drop your hip down to the inside and rotate it forward (as opposed to droping it down and back). Distance between inside hip and snow is less, and hips are moving to the inside of the turn, but hips are rotating so that you are facing outside. Think of your hips as a (very coarse) left-hand-thread screw being turned into the snow on your right side as you turn right, to see this motion is possible.

I pretty much liked the vids, and pretty much liked everything they said from a technical point of view. Of course, my opinion differs about the need for speed control on the runs shown; with a good pair of SG skis (see below) you should pretty much be able to bomb those runs, except possibly the moguls (that would be a rough ride). I found all that emphasis on speed control surprising coming from a racer like Bode, but I guess they were considering the target audiance. I also think they should have found some ice for the surviving ice part of the vids. Don't you guys get any freezing rain south of the border? All together it's pretty good stuff.

PS: I don't need no schtinking pole plants; I just stay forward and aggessive.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I see no contradiction. You can drop your hip down to the inside and rotate it forward (as opposed to droping it down and back). Distance between inside hip and snow is less, and hips are moving to the inside of the turn, but hips are rotating so that you are facing outside. Think of your hips as a (very coarse) left-hand-thread screw being turned into the snow on your right side as you turn right, to see this motion is possible.

I pretty much liked the vids, and pretty much liked everything they said from a technical point of view. Of course, my opinion differs about the need for speed control on the runs shown; with a good pair of SG skis (see below) you should pretty much be able to bomb those runs, except possibly the moguls (that would be a rough ride). I found all that emphasis on speed control surprising coming from a racer like Bode, but I guess they were considering the target audiance. I also think they should have found some ice for the surviving ice part of the vids. Don't you guys get any freezing rain south of the border? All together it's pretty good stuff.

PS: I don't need no schtinking pole plants; I just stay forward and aggessive.
Here is the contradiction:
- Hipps drop in to back and support knees and ensure edge hold
- Turn hipps outwards allowing for larger angles!

The whole video, all the skiing and comments suggests the first variation but then at the end they tell us to turn our hipps outwards. It should have read inwards. Check it out, its in the carving section close to the end.

You are saying:
- Distance between inside hip and snow is less, and hips are moving to the inside of the turn, but hips are rotating so that you are facing outside.
That is counter rotating and that is different and that is how Bode skis as well. That is what bode tells us in the video, drop our hips in to support our knees.

Interesting comment you have conserning speed controll. Im not really botherd for people flaming me for defensive moves when Bode is there to back me up . Bode is a great skier, better than me and most here at epic, and I think that if he thinks speed controll is important I think you and many others should listen and give it some thaught.
post #18 of 27
I think I can counter rotate AND drop my hip inside the turn at the same time:. Please explain why this is not possible.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman1 View Post
TDK6, thanks for your feedback. Makes sense to me. I'm finding this discussion and a number of other threads very interesting. Bode does some things in the vids that, reading these forums, seem to be very out of fashion and yet it looks pretty good to me.

Regarding moves being out of fashion, I won't mention specific technical points, as they have been extensively discussed in other threads, but it seems to me - as you say - that the fundamentals of skiing haven't changed - even if today's skis allow one some different options (at least in certain circumstances, especially piste). There seems to be almost an obsession with doing things "a certain way". Yet - for example - I can choose to skid or carve, and what I choose to do is up to me. Because something isn't efficient or fashionable in my view doesn't mean one should be burned at the stake for doing it. Hopefully we can understand the options open to us as we ski and be able to perform appropriate moves for our purpose, whether that purpose is skiing efficiently, or simply having fun (inefficiently!).

The book that really made things click for me was "Skilful Skiing", by John Shedden (who I think Martin knows well). It's an excellent little book and I still often refer to it. For me, this book clearly expresses a good deal of the underlying truths behind skiing and gave me understanding of what I was really doing, and why. Although equipment has changed, the fundamentals in this book are, I believe, still valid, despite being written in 1982. We still pressure, edge, and (albeit the need is much less with short radius skis) sometimes turn the skis, whilst balancing on them. And certain physical positions and movements help us in doing those things.
Great post . Back in the good old days we did not have the same kind of boots we have now and the skis were totally different but that pushed us to develop great skills insted. Today its so much easier to ski. The new 10-15 meter turnradius skis turn by themselves and its fun to teach people to ski because they progress so much quicker. Carving has been the big revolution but we still need to skidd and drift our skis in controll.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I think I can counter rotate AND drop my hip inside the turn at the same time:. Please explain why this is not possible.
Sorry if I did not express myself clearly enough, you are perfectly right. You can and you SHOULD drop your hip into the inside and counter rotate at the same time.
post #21 of 27
The pelvis needs to tilt upward on the inside side of the turn. This allows for more leg retraction on the inside. Most of us are better balanced fore & aft if we pull the inside foot back under the hips. It can't be pulled too far back...it'll still be forward of the outer foot. Much depends on individual body construction, boot shaft tilt, boot footboard tilt, and toepiece/heelpiece height differences on the ski. So...drop the hips inside the turn while the pelvis tilts upward, the inside foot is pulled back, and the inside hip and shoulder/arm are pushed forward. Simple.

Harald Harb has comments on Bode's skiing in the pmts forum on realskiers.com. Having been a Canadian national team racer and USSCA master coach, his views have more horsepower in this sort of matter than most of us.


Benni Raich winning the first men's WC race this year, Levi, Finland


Niki Hosp, women's 2nd at Levi

Note the amount of inside tip lead:




Ken
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
The pelvis needs to tilt upward on the inside side of the turn. This allows for more leg retraction on the inside. Most of us are better balanced fore & aft if we pull the inside foot back under the hips. It can't be pulled too far back...it'll still be forward of the outer foot. Much depends on individual body construction, boot shaft tilt, boot footboard tilt, and toepiece/heelpiece height differences on the ski. So...drop the hips inside the turn while the pelvis tilts upward, the inside foot is pulled back, and the inside hip and shoulder/arm are pushed forward. Simple.

Harald Harb has comments on Bode's skiing in the pmts forum on realskiers.com. Having been a Canadian national team racer and USSCA master coach, his views have more horsepower in this sort of matter than most of us.


Benni Raich winning the first men's WC race this year, Levi, Finland


Niki Hosp, women's 2nd at Levi

Note the amount of inside tip lead:




Ken
Yes, you can reduce tip lead but No, you cannot eliminate it. Look here:
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph.../img_b/08.html

Bodes message in his video is that he pushes his inside ski forwards out of the way so that he will be able to edge his outside ski even more. That is the opposite of reducing tip lead.
post #23 of 27
I've been mulling over the tip lead thing. Martin's comments put it into context. Miller is bringing his race style to all-mountain skiing... starting with high edge angles, very early in the turn, and dropping the hips inside early, to achieve that.
I wonder, how feasible is that for all mountain skiing though? He skis very low and flexed, too. Gives speed and strength, but again, is it feasible or even necessary for good all mountain skiing?
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
I've been mulling over the tip lead thing. Martin's comments put it into context. Miller is bringing his race style to all-mountain skiing... starting with high edge angles, very early in the turn, and dropping the hips inside early, to achieve that.
I wonder, how feasible is that for all mountain skiing though? He skis very low and flexed, too. Gives speed and strength, but again, is it feasible or even necessary for good all mountain skiing?
It works for me.
post #25 of 27
So once again the question arises: how much tip lead is the correct amount? Perhaps the answer is: it depends on how active you want or need the inside ski to be, in any given turn. Certainly it looks although Raich and Hosp have far less of it than Janyk, although it's not easy to estimate the amount of tip lead from a head-on two-dimensional photo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
He skis very low and flexed, too.
And I'm sure Bud Heishman, if he were to read this, would remind us that that comes directly from his boot setup. So I suppose any skier has to tailor his/her boot setup according to how much energy they want to expend in their skiing...
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
So once again the question arises: how much tip lead is the correct amount? Perhaps the answer is: it depends on how active you want or need the inside ski to be, in any given turn. Certainly it looks although Raich and Hosp have far less of it than Janyk, although it's not easy to estimate the amount of tip lead from a head-on two-dimensional photo.



And I'm sure Bud Heishman, if he were to read this, would remind us that that comes directly from his boot setup. So I suppose any skier has to tailor his/her boot setup according to how much energy they want to expend in their skiing...
You all may remeber in the last major tip lead discussion I refferred extensively to this video. I was not aware it was on the web and may not have been at the time.

Bode talks about tip lead in the video and an entire section is spent on pole planting and it's paramount importance. . Both rather controversial subjects here ( but what is not controversial here). bode's comments were in order to create very extreme angles you must have a fair amount of inside tip lead to make room for your outside knee to boot.

As I remeber, Bode's tip lead becomes very extreme in the last part of the turn not the begining as he progressively increased his angles he naturally had more tip lead.

Tip lead is unavoidable and in fact desirable if you create extreme angles and inclination in the last half of the turn . As the angles increas so does the tip lead. About the only palce you really have no tip lead is when coming neutral in transition and at the very top of the turn as the transition ends. Once you begin your turn and start progressively creating angles your tip lead progressively increases as does you angles until you have reached your maximum edge angle and then it begins to decrease as you transition to neutral.

It is physically impossible to ski with as much angle as Bode does and have your skis even with no tip lead.

If you ski very upright with no inclination and never get inside your tun annd creat very mild angles you could minimize tip lead. That does not sound like any fun to me!

Howw much is the right amount? It depends on the angles you are creating and where in the turn you are. Shuffle? Absolutely! Unavoidable at this level of skiing!

keep in mind he is on rossi's in the video Probably 3 years ago!
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
I've been mulling over the tip lead thing. Martin's comments put it into context. Miller is bringing his race style to all-mountain skiing... starting with high edge angles, very early in the turn, and dropping the hips inside early, to achieve that.
I wonder, how feasible is that for all mountain skiing though? He skis very low and flexed, too. Gives speed and strength, but again, is it feasible or even necessary for good all mountain skiing?
I think that there are same basic fundamental properties present in every level of skiing, no matter what age we are, what skill level we have achieved or what terrain type we are in. We just have to adjust according to equipment, snow, visiability, traffic, our energy level, co-skiers, our present mood etc. Sometimes I feel like wedging and so I wedge, sometimes I feel like blasting and so I blast but I rely on same fundamental technique in both cases. Its all about how I react to the snow and how the snow reacts to me.

I think that modern race skiing is highly missunderstood. In fact its just high end skiing that once upon a time evolved from wedging exactly the same way intermediate parallel skiing did. Its just speed taken to its extremes. Those who think that the WC skiers like Bode never brakes and that every turn they crank out of their skis are carverd and aimed at excelling speed needs to listen to what Bode is trying to say in the video. At every level its about controlling your speed according to set gates and/or terrain. If you ask me Bodes skiing lends itself beautifully to all mountain skiing and from what I have heared he is a great all mountain skier himself.

Tip lead!!! Anybody remember my tip lead video from last year? By request we can have a look at it but I dont want to hijack this thread. Great post by Atomicman .
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