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polish the side edges

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
On this guide page 11: http://www.kuu.com/tuningmanual2.pdf

it suggests that after sharpening, you should polish the edges with "a diamond stone, hard stone, or gummi".

After reading previous posts, and discussed here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=46295 ,
the general consensus was that hard stones and gummi stones would detune the edges, which I thought was supposed to be avoided :::::

...or does it mean to just take off the burr hanging down from the side edge?
Polish the edge to me sounds like running a stone all the way along the edge in the same way you did to sharpen it, i.e. at an angle of 1 degree or whatever in a guide.
post #2 of 18
diamond pass- this is a cutting pass, will remove material and makes an even finer surface and thus potentially sparper edge than your finest file.

hard stone & ceramics: even finer and with each finer grade you can get a sharper and sharper edge- ASUMMING you have done ever proceeding step completely and well. the stone step also removes any burrs if done well

gummi- these will NOT make an edge sharper. The ase soft and have the effect of slightly rounding that shard corner you have just labored over. Often done at tips and tails although we no longer recommend it for most race type skis.
post #3 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman View Post
Polish the edge to me sounds like running a stone all the way along the edge in the same way you did to sharpen it, i.e. at an angle of 1 degree or whatever in a guide.
Yep. Anyway, that's what it sounds like to me as well.

A diamond stone or a "hard" stone (ceramic or something) are the best tools for this. This isn't really what a gummi stone is intended for, and its flexibility and softness don't really make it ideal for this application. I suppose it could sort of work in a pinch.
post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 
Okay, so after using a rough file...or in fact because the factory have already done that, if I wanted to sharpen I could use a stone or diamond.

Do you start with any particular grade of diamond for this or just the finest available?
I don't want to spend too much on a set of diamond stones and I have a ceramic stone already so any recommendations here?

Thanks.
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
diamond pass- this is a cutting pass, will remove material and makes an even finer surface and thus potentially sparper edge than your finest file.

hard stone & ceramics: even finer and with each finer grade you can get a sharper and sharper edge- ASUMMING you have done ever proceeding step completely and well. the stone step also removes any burrs if done well

gummi- these will NOT make an edge sharper. The ase soft and have the effect of slightly rounding that shard corner you have just labored over. Often done at tips and tails although we no longer recommend it for most race type skis.
Some stones detune the edge though don't they, which is not what I want.
It seems like a diamond is best for sharpening and polishing and stones are best for...well for nothing except maybe taking a burr off, which a diamond could do anyway? :
post #6 of 18
Stones and diamonds are all forms of abrasives with different coarseness options. IMO, especially for starting out, you can detune, polish or sharpen with the same stones or diamonds depending on how you apply the abrasive relative to the edge. Against the edge will dull or detune, with the edge will sharpen. Depending on state of the edge, typically start from coarse down to fine. Same can be said for files: bastard, 2nd cut, fine.....

HTH

A rough graphic:
post #7 of 18
Gordon-

Let me take a step backwards to try to explain

To sharpen anything we need 2 things
a) geometry
b) the smoother the surfaces, the finer the edge.

we start with tools that remove lots of metal to establish the geometry. This is where the bastard file comes in. We use that tool until the edge is at the correct angle and we have a uniform edge. When this step is done, all evidence of a rounded over edge is gone. BUT when looked at under a magnifier or when rubbed with an experienced fingernail, that edge will seem rough and bumpy or serrated- as it is, since we used a tool that works by tearing away big chunks of metal. (all metal cutting is really just tearing).

Each successive tool is finer and takes a smaller chip (thus leaving smaller serations on the edge). Use too fine a tool and you will work forever to get a good edge. Use too coarse a tool and all you are doing is turning good ski edge into a pile of chips on the floor.

So unless the edge is totally needing repair, start with a fine machinist's or ski file, then I like a medium diamond stone, a fine dimaond stone and then an Arkansas stone- medium. I don't use the very fine stone except for race day.

How many steps do you need? If you are good with a fine file, then a quick pass with a medium diamond to remove any burrs and you will have a better ski than most ski shops tunes. All the rest is persoanl preference.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman View Post
Some stones detune the edge though don't they, which is not what I want.
It seems like a diamond is best for sharpening and polishing and stones are best for...well for nothing except maybe taking a burr off, which a diamond could do anyway? :
GordonFreeman, this is really frustrating. I spent an enourmous amount of time psoting extremely accurate useful information from a number of websites most specifically the holmenkol site. www.holmenkol.us.

We answered all of these qurestions on the previous thread you started on this subject.

Did you read any of what I posted? Read the Holmenkol tech Section articles!!!!!

But anyway here goes. What you are NOW asking is in regard to your side edge. The diamond or stone is held flush against your side edge. Neither a diamond or hard stone if held at the correct angle (your side edge beveler must be set to your side edge angle) will detune your edge. A gummi is not used for this purpose, because it is too soft and could "wrap" around the side edge to the base edge side slightly and take some sharpness off your edge.

Remeber one thing when working on ski edges.


LESS IS ALMOST ALWAYS MORE!!! DON'T OVER DO IT! UNLESS YOU ARE RACING DOWNHILL AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL, YOU JUST ARE NOT GOING TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SIDE EDGE POLISHED WITH A 400 GRIT DIAMOND OR A 1000 GRIT DIAMOND.

RELAX AND GO SKIING!

And for godsake don't screw around with the edges, if your skis are new, without skiing on them first. and then only if something is wrong!!!!
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
Hi atomicman
sorry, not trying to be frustrating and I'm grateful for all the advice you've given. It's just that in the meantime, I've been reading a lot of articles and if you read the one at the top, the way it's worded, implies something different.
Just trying to get it all sorted !
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman View Post
Hi atomicman
sorry, not trying to be frustrating and I'm grateful for all the advice you've given. It's just that in the meantime, I've been reading a lot of articles and if you read the one at the top, the way it's worded, implies something different. I'm sure it's just a grammatical thing ! :
I read it. i think it was just worded poorly.

it lumped polishing and deburring into one sentence.

read this #8 "setting the side edge angle" (and below) What is sharp? and earlier in the article #3 "Base edge"

http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...our%20Skis.pdf

Also this on Base bevel http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...0Bevel%202.pdf
post #11 of 18
Gordon, just relax, ski and enjoy. This is all about keeping your toys in good shape and to optimize the fun. Lot of this may be sensory overload at this point and over thinking. If it's not broke don't fix it, but when it is 'broke' or needs some 'love' then start out easy a little at a time. And as alluded to within the excellent comments above, 'Less is more'. It's great you are trying to take care of your stuff by yourself and will come easier and make more sense with time and mileage as does skiing and boarding....or anything for that matter.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
Gordon, just relax, ski and enjoy. This is all about keeping your toys in good shape and to optimize the fun. Lot of this may be sensory overload at this point and over thinking. If it's not broke don't fix it, but when it is 'broke' or needs some 'love' then start out easy a little at a time. And as alluded to within the excellent comments above, 'Less is more'. It's great you are trying to take care of your stuff by yourself and will come easier and make more sense with time and mileage as does skiing and boarding....or anything for that matter.
Exactly thanks for saying it better and with more compassion then I did!
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman View Post
Hi atomicman
sorry, not trying to be frustrating and I'm grateful for all the advice you've given. It's just that in the meantime, I've been reading a lot of articles and if you read the one at the top, the way it's worded, implies something different.
Just trying to get it all sorted !
Dude, you need to take Atomicman's advice and quit looking at all this "other" info you're finding. There's a ton of misinformation and just plain crap out there on ski tuning. Forget it all and stick to the Holmenkol articles and you won't go wrong. Once you get some experience you can go back and look at some other "thoughts" on ski tuning, but honestly you shouldn't need to.

Another point - the purpose of regular files (mill bastard, pansar, etc. - not diamond) is to initially set edge bevels. You should never go near the edges again with a regular file just for sharpening. Sharpening involves using diamond files and final polishing can be done with super fine diamond files or usually stones.

Like others have said - relax and go skiing .
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
Dude, you need to take Atomicman's advice and quit looking at all this "other" info you're finding. There's a ton of misinformation and just plain crap out there on ski tuning. Forget it all and stick to the Holmenkol articles and you won't go wrong. Once you get some experience you can go back and look at some other "thoughts" on ski tuning, but honestly you shouldn't need to.

Another point - the purpose of regular files (mill bastard, pansar, etc. - not diamond) is to initially set edge bevels. You should never go near the edges again with a regular file just for sharpening. Sharpening involves using diamond files and final polishing can be done with super fine diamond files or usually stones.

Like others have said - relax and go skiing .
Thanks!
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
gummi- these will NOT make an edge sharper. The ase soft and have the effect of slightly rounding that shard corner you have just labored over. Often done at tips and tails although we no longer recommend it for most race type skis.
Is this recommendation a result of the shorter lengths of shaped skis versus longer in the past?

Excellent comments and info in this thread, BTW. It's great to see different perspectives and pick up new tips and approaches to the same issues.
Thanks,
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
Is this recommendation a result of the shorter lengths of shaped skis versus longer in the past?
I think it has to do with keeping the "effective" length of the edge completely sharp. Today's sidecuts actually extend beyond the traditional contact length (the tips and tails continue to get wider beyond those points). With the ski on edge these areas that are beyond the traditional contact length are engaged. If these areas are detuned (dulled) then you're not really "activating" the true sidecut of the ski as the designers intended.

The designers now use 3D CAD packages when designing skis and they are creating shapes that work better when the ski is decambered and placed into a full carving arc. I believe that's the reason why ski dimensions (as published) can't always tell the whole story. The ski's flex pattern and overall shape (not just 3 measurement points - tip, waist, tail) dictate how it will perform. I've run into this numerous times - 2 skis will look practically identical on paper, yet when they're skied they are nothing alike.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
The designers now use 3D CAD packages when designing skis and they are creating shapes that work better when the ski is decambered and placed into a full carving arc. I believe that's the reason why ski dimensions (as published) can't always tell the whole story. The ski's flex pattern and overall shape (not just 3 measurement points - tip, waist, tail) dictate how it will perform. I've run into this numerous times - 2 skis will look practically identical on paper, yet when they're skied they are nothing alike.
I would add construction material, mounting point & construction method & profile and torsional rigidity are also key factors.

Volkl came out with thier "3 D sidecut" which was exactly as you described back in about 1998 wiith the 2nd iteration of the P30 RCR.

when the ski was up on edge and decambered the contact point was farther forward then a ski designed flat. (At least that's what the marketing department said)
post #18 of 18
Thanks for the taking the time and providing good insights.
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