or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Weight shift in the modern wedge turn...Active or Passive?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# Weight shift in the modern wedge turn...Active or Passive? - Page 4

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman Would you care to explain yourself here and your understanding of physics?... Hombre, "leaning toward the outside" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does. "Speed" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does. If we create a turn, centrifugal force is present. It doesn't pop up at a certain speed or need some arbitrary body movement.....It just needs a TURN to "kick in". If you do not understand this simple physics concept I can understand why you are having trouble grasping the difference between Active and Passive weight transfer and the differences being discussed in this thread between a "steer and release" movement and an your "exagerated weight shift to the outside ski" movement to link wedge turns. b
Speed does not create the centrifugal force, but the centrifugal force does vary directly as the square of the speed and inversly as the radius of the turn. At half the speed you will have 1/4 the centrifugal force. Before you start turning, there is no centrifugal force.
That is NOT what TDK6 said is it???
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE A beginner should learn to flatten their skis, and that is usually done one ski at a time. Why? They need to know that skiing is not all about setting edges against forces. That mind set causes the defensive moves in the first place. Flattening a single ski is the first step to getting the student to realize that it is OK for their skis to slip. (Please don't take this to mean that a sideslipping low edge angled ski is safe in crud.) Flattening the ski/skiis is a very positive movement even if you are flattening merely to change to the other set of edges. Flat skis are a point in the transition that you must visit and you must be balanced when you do visit it. Learning to flatten and ski on a flat skis teaches balance. As most "progressions" work, this is best learned one ski at a time. The wedge with passive weight transfer is an excellent approach. As the student becomes more experienced, they become be less reliant on the steering angles that they create. They learn weight transfer techniques that better utilize their inertia and the built in steering angle of their skis. All of which can first be introduced by flattening the inside ski.
good post Big E
He said "centrifugal force reaction". So he's going to load the ski by actively weighting it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Exactly! At beginners level we need to create the centrifugal force reaction (outside ski pressure) by an action (leaning towards the outside). Later on when we are up to speed we only need to weighten the outside ski (action) to have the sentrifugal force (reaction) kick in. If you take a still pickture of someone wedging and leaning towards the outside and tilt it slightly until upper body is some what straight up and ignore the inside leg it should look something like this:http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=354DC1D3
I call BS.
It can be created by TURNING and turning does NOT have to begin with the "action of leaning toward the outside". It could be, but not my preference or PSIA's.

TURNING will happen when the deflection on one ski is greator or LESSOR than the other (in a wedge). There are multiple ways to cause this to happen and ONE favored way that promotes the same movements required in an offensive parallel turn.

possibie ways to make a gliding wedge initiate a turn:
1)increase the weight on outside ski (tdk6, Ghost, )
2)increase rotary on outside ski
3)increase edging on outside ski
all of the above INCREASE deflection to overcome resistance from inside ski

4)DECREASE edge angle on inside ski (allows outside ski to dominate and causes a passive weight shift without any arbitrary upper body movements, and causes a movement of the mass INTO the turn)

and....
only One way that will cause a christie simply by:
1) increasing the speed,
2) increasing the pitch
3) narrowing the wedge

By complimenting the releasing of the inside edge with the steering of the outside ski, an instructor will make the smoothest most magical wedge turns that emulate a parallel turn mechanics with the only real difference being sequential vs. simultaneous edge release. The path of the cm is the same. It is a "GO" turn baby! Just add speed, pitch, or narrow the wedge and you are on your way to parallel.

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman By complimenting the releasing of the inside edge with the steering of the outside ski, an instructor will make the smoothest most magical wedge turns that emulate a parallel turn mechanics with the only real difference being sequential vs. simultaneous edge release. The path of the cm is the same. It is a "GO" turn baby! Just add speed, pitch, or narrow the wedge and you are on your way to parallel.
Bud, you're right on. I disagree pretty strongly with tdk's approach to the wedge since it creates upper body movements that later need to be changed (and probably won't be, since most skiers won't be back for lessons after the first few).

I don't get why we'd want to throw our bodies around when we don't need to do that. Much better to get a sense of how we can work with our skis to get the results we seek. Even more, I focus on getting beyond a wedge as quickly as possible, and focusing on moving weight to that outside ski in that way isn't going to get me there.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 This is a very good description of why we lean towards the outside of a turn when speed is low. We somehow need to get the weight to the outside ski before pressure starts to build up due to the centrifugal force created from deviating from original headding.
Why? This buys us nothing at all and in fact creates reactions that the skier will look to get from the skis later that he probably doesn't really want (this will lead, for example, to strong edge-sets at transition, since the focus will be highest edge angles then).

You're relying too much on pressure on that ski to turn. At this level, you don't need or want that. Simply turn the skis with only enough edging to move in the direction you seek. Simple and exactly the same movement a high-level skier would use.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE OK then. Once you edge the outside ski, pressure starts to build and keeps increasing throughout the entire turn. The duration between the initial transfer of weight and onset of "significant" pressure is longer in an advanced turn. The pressure becomes "significant" when it is the result of greater than a force of "1 G".

Quote:
 In a beginner's turn the pressure is "significant" immediately after the weight is transferred.
yep

Quote:
 I think that pressure management at the top of the arc has become pretty much irrelevant when riding something like a rec slalom. It takes next to none to initiate the turn. Real pressure only happens once the steering angle has increased such that the force applied to the CM by the skis increases above normal resting. Around fall-line. Better?
Seems reasonable that the pressure is less than a G before the fallline, though I don't know how comfortable I am diminishing the need for pressure control in the top part of the arc. Pressure control is not just about reducing the buildup of pressure in the finish of the turn. Its also about building pressure during the top part. Anyway, how does this discussion relate back to wedge turns?
Been lurking and waiting.
Angulation at the transition? From my experience this encourages blocking against the outside ski. Which last time I checked is a static maneuver. So like Bud I avoid using it. Especially when you also consider to do so you need to move the shoulders uphil at the transition. Finally, as I remember this is a version of the old reverse airplane move we used with kids twenty years ago. How many of us teach on twenty year old skis, wearing twenty year old boots?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE A low speed turn is not at all what I was thinking of....
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE I was thinking about a high speed arc'd turn.
At slow speeds it takes longer for the passive weight shift to happen. I think we can all agree to that. We can offcourse stand arround and wait for it to happen but I like to call the shots myselfe and stay in controll. I like to think of the turn as being an offensive move that requires action.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE I was thinking about a high speed arc'd turn. The thinking was that the weight is transferred to the new outside ski while it is still the uphill ski. Then we roll the ski, the CM topples into the turn while we extending the outside leg to maintain snow contact. There is still no pressure. We are getting ready to manage the pressure increase when it starts to rise at the fall-line.
I think this is very interesting because deviating out of a wedge in the fall line is not a big problem. Starting a turn from a traverse is much more challanging. If we are wedging in a traverse on a flat hill we have more pressure on our downhill ski because gravity is pulling us downhill. Lets say 55/45. The steaper the hill is the more gravity is pulling us. In order to turn we need to somehow reduce the downhill ski pressure and increase the uphill ski pressure. (If we are carving and we have a lot of speed we simply flex the dowhill leg, stand up on our uphill leg (new outside ski leg) and let the ski ride its edge at preset radius. Our fraction of a second falling down the hill caused by gravity is quickly compensated by the centrifugal force that succeeds gravitation and keeps us in balance.) Back to wedging... this is where the active weight transfere comes in handy. By slightly leaning uphill shifting our weight from our downhill ski to our uphill ski so that 55/45 becomes 45/55 we initiate our turn. As we cross the fall line gravity will stop pulling us into the turn and start pulling us out in the turn. It joins the centrifugal froce and this is the reason why we feel increased pressure on our outside ski comming out of the fall line. The steaper it is the more gravitational forces is present. The longer we stay in the fall line the faster we go.

My objection to flattening the inside ski as the triggering action when doing a wedge turn is that when we from a traverse starting point mentioned above relese the inside edge of the downhill ski by flattening it no incresed pressure will be shifted to our uphill ski.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman For the record I DO NOT concur with Tdk6 and Ghost's thinking and selfserving conclusions to this debate! There is a marked difference in the two philosophies. b
LOL, tricked you there didnt I . At the end of this debate you will all be converted, mark my words .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman Would you care to explain yourself here and your understanding of physics?... Hombre, "leaning toward the outside" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does. "Speed" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does. If we create a turn, centrifugal force is present. It doesn't pop up at a certain speed or need some arbitrary body movement.....It just needs a TURN to "kick in". If you do not understand this simple physics concept I can understand why you are having trouble grasping the difference between Active and Passive weight transfer and the differences being discussed in this thread between a "steer and release" movement and an your "exagerated weight shift to the outside ski" movement to link wedge turns. b
For the record, I do not have any problem understaning the difference between active and passive weight transfer. Your post here shows that you have overlooked the main issue in this discussion. You are talking about creating a turn. You are overlooking the word creating. How are you creating a turn? You are stating - "leaning toward the outside" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does! How does turning happen? I could as well say that - "flattening the inside ski" does not create centrifugal force, TURNING does! Doesent make any sence or? Correct way would be: Leaning towards the outside shifts our weight to the outside ski and causes turning.

Im not saying that we should be shifting exagerated weight shift to the outside ski. That is your assumption. I say that we shoud shift sufficient weight to outside ski when needed. When we do ski school demos we often have to exagerate and isolate our movements in order to make them visual for the student, but you knew that....
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman It could be, but not my preference or PSIA's.
Now we are talking..... its all about preferences..... I can respect that.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sandgroper61 No, I mean looking - do you turn your entire body to look at something? I don't - special circumstances involving excess alcohol aside, of course. Pointing down the hill, looking to the left can be as simple as shifting your eyes. Or turning your head. The key point is intention ... and for a child, particularly, the thought is father to the deed. Can you explain how you get your feet to go where you want them to? A child certainly can't. But if they want to go somewhere, they make it happen. After a frighteningly brief time on skis, they can make skis turn - without thinking about it. Thinking should come a little later. Another thing: these are beginners we're talking about. I'm perfectly happy for their entire being to be pointed the same way as the skis. Separation is for later.
The moment youtell a beginner to turn his head, I guarantee you will also get upper body rotation, which we are trying to avoid. If you tell a beginner to shift his eyes into the turn you may well get a head turn, which virtually guarantees upper body rotation.

We'd like to avoid upper body rotation in adult skiers. It isn't always our goal to avoid the upper body rotation with children, because their development is not as complete, and they don't always have the fine motor skills for leg rotation. FWIW, because children closely link hand movements and leg movements, it is very useful to have the younger ones move their hands at the same time as you want them to move their feet, e.g. supinate the hand on the side of the new inside ski.
This has been an interesting discussion. tdk6, congrats for hanging in there for so long to present your case, in the face of "contemporary" popular belief.

For what it's worth, I just want to say that I see value in what tdk6 is advocating and teaching. He's doing more than just using a wedge as a brief (as possible) stepping stone in a mad rush to parallel. He's also using it as a tool to introduce some important concepts that will be used later in his student's learning journey.

Namely, he's introducing the concept of taking an active roll in the creation of desired balance states and turn shapes, and how to do it,,, and he's also providing an introduction to the movements that produce the angulation that will be necessary later when high edge angle creation becomes a goal.

It's great to be able to execute passively, but it's also important to know how to take the bull by the horns, so to speak, in a more active manner when desired.

I just read the synopsis offered by ssh of Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder over the weekend. In my appraisal of it, if there is anything to be keyed in on from the message he was trying to push, it's that we need to get off the technically limiting mantra kicks and come to the realization that there are multiple methods for doing and teaching, and that there is value to be found in all of them.
whenever i have a student who advocates "weighting" or "weight transfer" as a means to turn.....i pop off one ski, pick it up and place it on my shoulder, stand on one ski, then i ski off in a perfectly straight line.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Pressure control is not just about reducing the buildup of pressure in the finish of the turn. Its also about building pressure during the top part. Anyway, how does this discussion relate back to wedge turns?

Flattening the right ski to go right transfers weight to the left ski, but the pressure comes later.

Actively moving the weight over the left ski moves weight and pressure together.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick This has been an interesting discussion. tdk6, congrats for hanging in there for so long to present your case, in the face of "contemporary" popular belief. For what it's worth, I just want to say that I see value in what tdk6 is advocating and teaching. He's doing more than just using a wedge as a brief (as possible) stepping stone in a mad rush to parallel. He's also using it as a tool to introduce some important concepts that will be used later in his student's learning journey. Namely, he's introducing the concept of taking an active roll in the creation of desired balance states and turn shapes, and how to do it,,, and he's also providing an introduction to the movements that produce the angulation that will be necessary later when high edge angle creation becomes a goal. It's great to be able to execute passively, but it's also important to know how to take the bull by the horns, so to speak, in a more active manner when desired. I just read the synopsis offered by ssh of Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder over the weekend. In my appraisal of it, if there is anything to be keyed in on from the message he was trying to push, it's that we need to get off the technically limiting mantra kicks and come to the realization that there are multiple methods for doing and teaching, and that there is value to be found in all of them.
Rick, I find your interpretation of the active weight transfer in a beginner wedge turn interesting, but I wonder if it actually does what you are suggesting. If the skier goes on to more learning, I suppose it may (and there is no "dead end"... most of us learned to ski this way back in the day!). But, I also think that it leads to exaggerated movements endeavoring to shift weight around to create an outcome when that may not be either the most efficient or the most effective means of getting that outcome.

I don't see this as doctrinaire, either, but a question of "why?" Why not teach the student how to gently turn the skis by using nature's forces and our natural inclination of pointing our feet (skis) where we want to go? Playing with increased edge angle and weight shift (both allowing and creating) is interesting, but confuses the simplicity of creating an early beginner turn.

I would suggest that starting with the more minimal movements and expanding the skiers' repertoire into the more extensive movements is an approach that will help them avoid the removal of movements that some of us (!!! : !!!) have had to make our way through.
Good discussion. While I consider myself a skier who likes to push the envelope, I should say that I am fairly passive when it comes to Weight transfer. I just don't see any point in bothering with it when the forces I generate by tipping and turning my skis put me where they want me anyway. That being said, I find my pressure control movements to be more in RESISTING and RESPONDING to forces rather than CREATING them.

This, of course, only coming to pass after I had gained (what I believe to be) a sufficient understanding of each movement and skill. I've a long way to go, but this is the current state of my skiing "mantra".

Spag
I have to agree with SSH here.

At every level of skiing, isn't the objective to ski efficiently with minimal effort? I would think that we would all agree that it is.

Introducing an active weight shift at the wedge turn seems contrary to this objective, when as had been stated by others in this discussion, the weight shift can occur quite naturally when we teach the student to simply turn their feet in the direction of the turn and emphasize "inside" knee steering.

Mike
what happens when you teach them to point those feet across the hill (say to traverse to the next slope which may be a suitable skiing area while this is steep and icy?) .... with no weight transfer how well do they traverse a steep(for them) icy slope?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick This has been an interesting discussion. tdk6, congrats for hanging in there for so long to present your case, in the face of "contemporary" popular belief. For what it's worth, I just want to say that I see value in what tdk6 is advocating and teaching. He's doing more than just using a wedge as a brief (as possible) stepping stone in a mad rush to parallel. He's also using it as a tool to introduce some important concepts that will be used later in his student's learning journey. Namely, he's introducing the concept of taking an active roll in the creation of desired balance states and turn shapes, and how to do it,,, and he's also providing an introduction to the movements that produce the angulation that will be necessary later when high edge angle creation becomes a goal. It's great to be able to execute passively, but it's also important to know how to take the bull by the horns, so to speak, in a more active manner when desired. I just read the synopsis offered by ssh of Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder over the weekend. In my appraisal of it, if there is anything to be keyed in on from the message he was trying to push, it's that we need to get off the technically limiting mantra kicks and come to the realization that there are multiple methods for doing and teaching, and that there is value to be found in all of them.
Thank you Rick well spoken!
If I had introduced the sidestep to the student as a means for climbing up the hill, they would more than likely have the skills required to hold their skis on edge to traverse to the appropriate area.

On the other hand, if it was "steep and icy" as you suggest, I would more likely than not have beginning students walk to the appropriate area rather than attempting to have them get in a position where they weren't comfortable.

Mike
Quote:
 Originally Posted by mmckimson If I had introduced the sidestep to the student as a means for climbing up the hill, they would more than likely have the skills required to hold their skis on edge to traverse to the appropriate area. On the other hand, if it was "steep and icy" as you suggest, I would more likely than not have beginning students walk to the appropriate area rather than attempting to have them get in a position where they weren't comfortable. Mike
walking across an icy glacier in ski boots would be an interesting class exercise :

I'm playing with ideas having watched a couple of folks be unable to hold a line due to lack of angulation/weight transfer.... interesting for me as i was NOT allowed off the beginner slope until I could both sideslip and traverse STRONGLY.... these folks have skied quite a bit and are able bodied.... I'm curious why I have to show them how to angulate/traverse
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Notorious Spag I should say that I am fairly passive when it comes to Weight transfer. I just don't see any point in bothering with it when the forces I generate by tipping and turning my skis put me where they want me anyway. That being said, I find my pressure control movements to be more in RESISTING and RESPONDING to forces rather than CREATING them.
Absolutely! In all sports, skiing included, there are athletic movements that occur naturally and others one has to initiate. I'm a big fan of narrowing the performance requirements, and focusing on the latter.

Generally speaking, weight shift is best left to the natural forces.
Tdk6, Rick,

I understand TDK6's thinking as I learned that way, and taught that way, and made stem turns that way back in the 70's.....Then I discovered a better way. A way that was on of those AHAh's we get in our skiing careers which lights go off, bells ring, and a deeper understanding is realized. A revelation in ones thinking that changes the whole picture.

Just trying to share it with others who have not seen the light yet! Like my momma always said, "you can lead a horse to water....."

As disski points out there are situations where TDK6's technique is useful where we need to "set an edge" (thanks disski) but in light of all we know this "leaning over the ski to create a turn thing" should NOT be our default choice as an educated ski instructor trying to perscribe to our paying customers what is the best method for them to learn first.

I would be interested in knowing what type of terrain TDK6 teaches on because perhaps that would influence to a degree his thinking? It would also be interesting to see some of TDK6's skiing to see how this kind of thinking manifests in his skiing abilities?....

b
This thread just keeps on going and going!

As I have said in earlier posts in this thread, I am buying into the idea of teaching offensive turns to my beginner students.( releasing outside ski, turning both sets of toes in the direction one wants to go, etc.) Tdk6 has mentioned that the beginner terrain where he teaches has no real "bunny" hill. Perhaps this is why he has found it necessary to promote the early upper body tip: the student can quickly feel the outside "grip" and get a much needed sense of control. The idea of the centerline, offensive movement approach clearly depends on very gentle terrain. Ideally, all beginners should have this.

cdnguy
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick I just read the synopsis offered by ssh of Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder over the weekend. In my appraisal of it, if there is anything to be keyed in on from the message he was trying to push, it's that we need to get off the technically limiting mantra kicks and come to the realization that there are multiple methods for doing and teaching, and that there is value to be found in all of them.
Aren't we all being a "good audience" though? Bud did ask for a choice, and we're giving him one!

I see what is being offered by tdk6 as well. However, don't we go through the passive phase before angulating etc...

And yes, there is tremendous value in learning how to set the edge. Which is why we first teach stopping as an active edgeset.
Would it be a fair conclusion on my part to say:

The centerline wedge demo is the ideal, given optimum terrain with which to employ it, However; Lack of suitable beginner terrain may dictate a sway to one side of the centerline skill blend requiring more defensive movements such as a more active and deliberate weight transfer and edging. Steeper terrain does make it much more difficult to employ "release and steer" movements although, efforts to steer the skier back toward the centerline skill blend should be initiated as soon as possible in order to minimize anchoring habits that may inhibit further developement of offensive skiing.

Thank you all for a great discussion and weighing in on both schools of thought! I hope some have gained a better understanding of turn mechanics in a wedge turn, the differences in focus, and their benefits/limitations.

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman ...Steeper terrain does make it much more difficult to employ "release and steer" movements although... b
Actually Bud, I believe steeper terrain makes it easier to employ "release and steer" movements. But (and an important but) steeper terrain makes it harder to overcome the fear of the fall line prevalent in many skers, not just beginners.

But I don't think the way to overcome this fear is by teaching the student to be even more defensive. Skiing is like rock climbing, the more you shift your weight up the hill, the more off balance you will be.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Weight shift in the modern wedge turn...Active or Passive?