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Weight shift in the modern wedge turn...Active or Passive? - Page 14

post #391 of 408
Thread Starter 
post #392 of 408
Didn't Bob Barnes do a great job with those? Exceptional!

And clearly outline modern technique for wedge turns, too...
post #393 of 408
Great job.

Tell me if I'm reading this right. On page three in the basic parallel and dynamic parallel turns, the skier is turning right while the skis are still on their left edges (between 0 and 1R). Is that PSIA steering at turn intitiation/transition?
post #394 of 408
I don't think it is steering that is being articulated between 0 and 1R (dynamic) or 2R (basic), Ghost. Rather, I think Bob is illustrating critical edge angle at 0 and the moment past that the skis release their hold on the left turn. Yeah, they're not flat on the snow, square to one another, nor equal weighted when they let go...

Steering certainly could be thrown in there though, for example, my thought is that Pivot Slips happen between 0 and 1R (using your reference points) where the edges have to be released but are not flat - unless you like sore shoulders!

Certainly Bob can speak more precisely concerning his illustrations! ...and my errors in interpreting them.
post #395 of 408
Thread Starter 
Very good Cgeib! "releasing" edges is not synonymous with "flat" skis or a weight shift neccessarily! Releasing (in my mind) refers to letting go of the hold the edge(s) have allowing the options to pivot, or carve by simply allowing the other ski to begin deflecting the skier in another direction. This is true in the wedge turn or a dynamic parallel turn I believe. We pass through a momentary neutral where we can opt to shape the turn with steering or tip it up and carve cleanly from the top of the turn.

Hope I made sense.
post #396 of 408
What I am noticing is that the skis are POINTING in a different direction between 0 and 1R. As I understand it, releasing the edges would cause the the skier to release from his path, which I understand, but in order to get the skis pointing in a different direction, he would have to release the tips more than the tails (via fore -aft pressure balance), or else steer them.

With my new shapely skis that don't like being flat to the snow, I generally switch edges quickly and don't begin to turn the other way until I'm on the other edges. I seldom deviated that much from the fall line with my older skis, but I think I pretty much had to be on the right edge to turn right and the left edge to turn left, unless I was doing a skidded speed-control turn coming into the lift line.
post #397 of 408
Never mind. I just figured it out. The turns don't need to be "arced".
post #398 of 408
The moment we get to an edge angle lower than critical angle, if our core is moving forward as it should at that time, the natural movement of the front of our skis will be downhill. Especially in the turns illustrated at the top of that document, which are not arc-to-arc carved turns.

I note in these illustrations that in the wedge and wedge chrisie turns, the weight doesn't move to the new outside ski until well past the transition (farther in the wedge turns (4)) than the wedge christie turns (3)). Due to speed and terrain, it's even less for dynamic parallel (2) although the same for basic parallel as for wedge christies.

Something to be learned in that, I think...
post #399 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Releasing (in my mind) refers to letting go of the hold the edge(s) have allowing the options to pivot, or carve by simply allowing the other ski to begin deflecting the skier in another direction.
Just the bold bits. Release of the skier from their arc, which could be done by ILE,OLR, retraction, rebound. etc. The CM release preceeds the deflection in the othe direction.

What d'ya think?
post #400 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMCM View Post
I've been reading all the comments with great interest, hoping to learn some new things as a student. With regard to turns, I've got some input from the STUDENT point of view.
This is a very interesting post. What we have here is the students perspective. From reading hundreds of posts in this thread about weight transfer he is still missing something, and I dont blame him, so let me try to explain the matter at hand as simple as I can.

As the headding for this thread suggests we have 2 basic ways of shifting weight while wedging:
1 Active
2 Passive

Active weight transfer is actively performed by skier while passive is pressure build up by itself. If you would be standing on a carpet with feet slightly apart active weight transfer would be to lift one foot off the carpet. You would be out of balance and instantly fall in that direction. To prevent you from falling you should at the same time also lean in the opposite direction, lets say if you were picking up your left foot you would be leaning towards your right to stay in balance. You could also just lean towards your right without picking your left foot up in the air and settle for instance for a 40/60 weight distribution. Passive weight transfer would be someone pulling the carpet sideways, lets say to the left. Your weight would then be sifted to your right foot without you moving a muscle.

Those are principal conseps as to how pressure builds up and is reduced underneath our skis. Now lets look at how they relate to skiing and turning. From a wedge position what makes us turn is a combination of incresed pressure on one ski and decresed pressure on the other ski, on edge angles, ski properties, pist pich and on speed.

So in order to turn left we can eather shift weight actively to our new right outside ski by leaning our upper body slightly to the right or relese old left outside ski and wait for pressure to build up on our new right outside ski. CMCM's first teacher:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMCM View Post
Their instructions had left me muscling my way around in a wedge...basically using the previously uphill ski to muscle and wedge around the turn until it finally became the downhill ski. Of course, when I finished the turn I would still be in a sort of wedge. This sort of turn could also lead to a fall from catching edges the wrong way due to the fact that I was keeping fairly equal weight on both skis thru the whole turn.
"Muscle" arround his new outside ski indicates that rotary had been applied to that ski. In the passive weight transfer method I have been let to understand that in combination to relesing the old outside ski you should also apply rotary movement to the new outside ski for more efficient turning. CMCM was also feeling that his stance was too much two footed which is also an indication that passive weight transfer had not kicked in yet and did not do so during the whole turn. Also he was catching an inside ski edge which is exactly what happens if you relese the old outside ski edge and let it flatten out. Remember, Im not telling you this, CMCM is!

The second teacher, the 18 y old girl told CMCM to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMCM View Post
Traversing the hill and planning to turn left, she said to slightly lift and "lead" into the turn with that currently downhill ski. She said by doing that small movement, a change in weighting would occur naturally in which my weight would naturally shift to the uphill "turning" ski , which would follow in the turn movement.
A traditional active weight transfere. As he picks the old outside ski off the snow he counterleans the other direction pressure is built up underneath new outside ski even before the turn starts to ensure a good initiation.

So what did CMCM feel at the end of the day and what was his conclusion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMCM View Post
I want to emphasize that so much of this situation was due to me not fully understanding how much one ski needed to be unweighted AND my insecurity in doing that. I think what would have helped me would have been training exercises to get me comfortable skiing on one ski....done on a modest slope where getting out of control would not be an issue. I think my biggest block was just feeling I was only secure by having both feet firmly engaged in creating the wedge, and the shifting of weight took me out of that comfort zone. So it still goes back to the issue of learning to be comfortable moving along with most or even all weight on just one ski. For me, that was the key to it all.
To my understanding and with living profe in written statement above a simple relese of the old outside ski edge does not "unweight" old outside ski. CMCM hits the jackpot here in this thread and recieves an award for outstanding analysis.

I think the animations in BobB's manual are very well made with only one small minor exeption.....
post #401 of 408
Thread Starter 
TDK6,

I like your analogy regarding passive and active weight transfer. It offers a clear image of the difference. And Yes, We ALL AGREE, AN ACTIVE WEIGHT TRANSFER WILL WORK TO TURN THE SKIS! This is not in dispute, never has been, never will be.

I would even venture to admit, it is probably easier to teach and demonstrate to the student, HOWEVER, DOES THAT MAKE IT MORE EFFICIENT IN ACHIEVING OUR LONGER TERM GOALS FOR THE STUDENT?

I also understand that a resort that does not allow comfortable straight runs, with unintimidating run-outs, will hinder the ability to promote "Go" turns to beginners (though use of garlands would work).

The bottom line about a wedge turn is this: one ski has to create more or less deflection than the other. This point is key to understanding the mechanics of this turn. This being said, it is much easier for me to "let go" of resistance from one ski than it is to create more deflection on one ski to overcome the opposing skis deflection/resistance to create a turn.

I think it is undisputably easier (and consequently more difficult to see) to release the resistance of one ski to turn. Now, teaching this first takes an understanding by the instructor of the mechanics of the wedge turn and realizing the benefits of this movement. Until that time, the easiest way out for the instructor (not the student) is to teach an active weight transfer. The best thing for the student is to lead them in the easiest path to a parallel turn. STEMS are not the way. Sorry....

respectfully,
bud
post #402 of 408
What does a stem have to do with a wedge turn??? Just because I showed it in one of my videos doesent mean that it has to be stem after wedge before we come to parallell. Simply slide skis gently out into a wedge and then back again after the turn. BTW, refresh me of the long term benefits from passive weight transfer compared to active at the very beginning. Remember that as speed pick up we evolve from the active weight transfer into a passive one.
post #403 of 408
Thread Starter 
Please show me a video progression of where you go next with your wedge turns? What is your progression to parallel? Maybe I am missing something? You ask us here to watch your videos but then retract what you are showing in them? I do not understand?? Show us what you really do then so that there is no confusion?

Are you saying that Wedge turns to parallel is to "simply slide skis gently out into a wedge and then back again after the turn"? Sounds like a braking wedge? Sounds like the pivot point is around the tips??

To answer your questions, reread Bob Barnes posts and mine.

bud
post #404 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
CMCM hits the jackpot here in this thread and recieves an award for outstanding analysis.
And the award for perseverance goes to TDK6:.
post #405 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
And the award for perseverance goes to TDK6:.
Wow, I need a dictionary for that one... lets see....

Perserverence: the act of persisting or persevering; continuing or repeating behavior; "his perseveration continued to the point where it was no longer appropriate"

LOL Ghost , I get your message.... but it takes two to pick a fight! Why do I allways get all the blame .
post #406 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Wow, I need a dictionary for that one... lets see....

Perserverence: the act of persisting or persevering; continuing or repeating behavior; "his perseveration continued to the point where it was no longer appropriate"

LOL Ghost , I get your message.... but it takes two to pick a fight! Why do I allways get all the blame .
You need a better dictionary. Perseverence is more like a virtue, especially in the face of adversity. Think courage and endurance and fortitude.
post #407 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
You need a better dictionary. Perseverence is more like a virtue, especially in the face of adversity. Think courage and endurance and fortitude.
That description sounds better yes but Im shure there are guys feeling www.worldreference.com on line dictionary is right on the dime !
post #408 of 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Simply slide skis gently out into a wedge and then back again after the turn.
This is not the movement used to create what Bob defines as a wedge in those materials. The wedge is created by the two legs steering at different rates through the turn. The movement is a rotary one, guiding the skis with rotary movements. There's no need for weight transfer due to the gentle nature of the terrain and the use of line for speed control (just like in expert skiing).
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