BigE and Rick...thanks for clarifying your intentions and it all sounds good to me except for possibly the following statement, which I might be missing something on, but here it is:
Originally Posted by BigE
There is need for Outside Leg Relaxation AND a weight shift for toppling to occur. If there is OLR and weight transfer, there can be no toppling, as the point of balance and point of pressure are co-located after transfer.
BigE, please explain more precisely what you mean when you say a weight shift is required along with the OLR. What are the actions taken by a skier to execute a weight "shift" by your terms? I thought we were saying that weight shift is when we intentionally and forcibly move our CM laterally using biomechanical actions. If I understand what you're saying, you're saying that releasing the OLR is not enough, and using OLR combined with ILE is also not enough. You are saying that in addition or instead of ILE, a complete "toppling" (which I assume you mean to be effective cross-over), happens when OLR is combined with a lateral move to push the CM down the hill. Yes?
Is ILE different then this lateral move you're talking about?
I get the point Rick clarified about having to move the Cm uphill to maintain a non-toppling balance. By that logic, not using any lateral upward moves(ie, weight shifts) along with OLR would in fact result in a loss of balance and the CM would topple. When I ski I am using OLR and ILE combined. I'm quite sure I am NOT moving the CM uphill most of the time because I want to topple and I do. I can see how racers would have situations where they want to not topple until a later time, so I see the point in identifying these separate issues of managing the pressure on the two skis and managing the lateral positioning of the CM in order to effect the balance point.
For me in free skiing, I am just trying to link my turns and use the energy from one turn to take me into the next, so I'm trying to topple as much as possible 90% of the time.
Whether I am intentionally pushing the CM downhill from above or not in a lateral weight move..I'm not sure right now, ask me next week. If I am, its not much. VERY subtle. I find the G forces are actually plenty strong to get it there and I feel like mostly I just nudge my hips forward a bit as I cross over to avoid falling in the back seat as I enter the turn. The point being, I don't think its fair to say that "no" toppling will occur without the lateral weight move you mention. That is, if I am even understanding for sure what you mean. I'm quite sure that just the right amount of pushing from above could certainly increase the toppling effect, but I'm also pretty sure this could be overdone to the detriment of the turn. My my...what a dilemma.
I am not quite sure how all of this fits in with the discussion about wedge turns. The implication is that CM cross over can be taught at wedge turn level. I'm not sue how I feel about that right now. I have to try some of these ideas on snow this weekend before I can comment much further about how this relates back to wedge turns and whether or not I think its a good way to get them thinking in terms of the CM cross over instead of getting over the outside ski as TDK has demonstrated.