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just how sharp do the edges have to be? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
11/2/06 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
YOu don't want to use a diamnd stone to deburr. Diamond stones are for sharpening & polishing. You want an Arkansas or Transulucent surgical stone to deburr. Look here http://www.race-werks.com/store.php?startrow=10

Also deburring is not done on the edge itself. Not where the base & side edge meet. The only time you need to deburr on the hill is if your skis are grabby or hooky.

The burr or "curl" of metal is produced when sharpeneing the side edge. it is a Hanging burr that protrudes down the side edge minutely past the base edge so that when your ski is on the snow it stikcs down into the snow. This is what produces the very grabby, unpredictable performance many times of freshly tuned skis. Whoever tuned them forgot the final step or is in too big a hurry to do it (read ome shops).

To deburr your skis on the hill put your ski on it side base facing away from you. Place the stone flat against the base sticking slightly above the side edge, using your themb as a guide on the top edge or sidewall of the ski with medium pressure polish as though your are polishing the base edge from tip to tail. Make sure the stone is in contact with the base edge th4e entire length of the ski. You can hear the slight grinding as you knock the hanging burr off. Once you have the burr knocked down you could also use a gummi stone the same way as a second step and then use the gummi with very light pressure at a 45 degree angle on the actual edge,(the point where your base edge and side edge meet). KEYWORD HERE IS LIGHTLY, ALMOST NO PRESSURE JUST SLIDE IT VERY LIGHTLY ALONG THE EDGE.

Get prepared for a silky smooth ride. You need do nothing to the side edge so you do not need a file guide and since you are using a polishing stone as opposed to a cutting stone or file as described above you will not screw up your base edge angle.
Just want to add something. You can easily tell if you have this burr. by running your finger perpendicular to the edge. First of all for explanation, if the side edge was done last, the burr will be pointing down toward the snow, if the base was done last, it will be pointing out to the side. You can feel this by running your finger along the base and off the edge, as it falls off the edge it should be smooth. ditto going from the sidewall down the edge toward the base. it should be smooth all the way along the edge in both directions. I don't see why a fine diamondstone can't be used.
Quote:
When you mention de-burring, what you mean is removing the waste material from the side edge sharpening, that has been pushed away from the plane of the side edge and is hanging above the plane of the base edge? This is almost like a shaving that has not completely fallen away?
I think that's a good description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Also deburring is not done on the edge itself. Not where the base & side edge meet. The only time you need to deburr on the hill is if your skis are grabby or hooky
A-man, what do you call a ding in the ski after it hits a rock? When your edge look serrated. I've always known that as a burr also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman
Doesn't the Arkansas stone detune the edge though?
Anything (to a much lesser extent, a soft gummy stone) will detune the ski to some extent if you don't hold it to match the angle of the edge.
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post #32 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post

A-man, what do you call a ding in the ski after it hits a rock? When your edge look serrated. I've always known that as a burr also.
"nick"
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post #33 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
"nick"
Nick who?
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post #34 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
"nick"
Nick who?
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post #35 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:05pm
Thread Starter 
This is what's causing me the conufusion.
I understand your post and the links when referring to a hanging burr caused by sharpening but I was originally referring to a nick or something that makes the edge rougvh, say hitting a rock or some twigs, etc.
I once saw a ski instructor run something on his edges while out on the slopes , while he also did my skis, he said it was to help with carving and when he ran some sort of stone on the edges, you could see where it stopped on a rough bit of the metal. He continued to run it up and down the edge until it was smooth.
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post #36 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:17pm
Thanks for the roundturn. I had the same experience as you. I got tired of my skis skiing crazy everytime i had someone else tune them, so i spent a lot of time and effort and learned to do it myself. glad to hear you got it solved. there is nothing worse then having your skis ski poorly. it drives me nutZZZZ!

Tthe other critical issue I have mentioned numerous times on the forum is the concavity in the tip & tail of wider skis. Most base edge bevelers provide their angle using the base as the reference or starting point of the angle, For example Base of Beast or SVST final cut. if you use these bevelrs and you have any concavity in the tip or tail, your skis will be underbeveled in those areas.

To compensate you must increase the bevel angle in the tip and tail. remeber .5mm is about 1/2 degree at measured at 60mm from the edge.

So if you wanted to end up with a 1 degree you may have to increase the tip & tail bevel by .25 to .5mm (1/4 to 1/2 degree.

if your skis are underbeveld in the tip & tail (.5 there and say 1 degree underfoot) they will ski like they are railed or have a hanging burr.

the other fix is to use a base bevelr that spans the entire widthe of the ski and does not have a glide that sit in the low part of the concavity.

Like this one http://reliableracing.com/detail.cfm...&category=2000


Having 2 boys that raced for 10 years also helped as i was surrounded by knowledable reps, coaches and skier parents. Lotsa good info out there!
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post #37 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:18pm
I can understand the confusion.

Notice that each nick, as it is formed, is likely to have a hanging burr off of it.

What is confusing is that you really can't polish the -nick- out without drastic edge removal but you can polish the -nick's burr- out. Since the -nick's burr- is formed by high-speed contact with relatively dull objects, it is likely to be thicker and harder (work hardening, above) than one formed by filing, say. So one uses a hard stone (diamond or ceramic) to polish the burr out. Unfortunately, the nick itself remains.
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post #38 of 59
11/2/06 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
I can understand the confusion.

Notice that each nick, as it is formed, is likely to have a hanging burr off of it.

What is confusing is that you really can't polish the -nick- out without drastic edge removal but you can polish the -nick's burr- out. Since the -nick's burr- is formed by high-speed contact with relatively dull objects, it is likely to be thicker and harder (work hardening, above) than one formed by filing, say. So one uses a hard stone (diamond or ceramic) to polish the burr out. Unfortunately, the nick itself remains.
A random nick or burr here or their on your edge does not have the overwhelming negative effect of a hanging burr due to tuning.

May the ski feel smoother, if you knock that small burr off the ding? Probably will. but as comprex put it, you can't clean the nick or ding up on the edge without seme fairly major side edge work.

I think the confusion was the definiton of a burr.
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post #39 of 59
11/2/06 at 7:12pm
Atomicman, Thanks for the info.

I will add a new fancy stone to my tool set for base edge finishing.

Martin
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post #40 of 59
11/2/06 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin View Post
Atomicman, Thanks for the info.

I will add a new fancy stone to my tool set for base edge finishing.

Martin
Happy to help
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post #41 of 59
11/2/06 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
Anything (to a much lesser extent, a soft gummy stone) will detune the ski to some extent if you don't hold it to match the angle of the edge.
Which is why a diamond stone in a base beveller is my preferred burr removal technique.
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post #42 of 59
11/2/06 at 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
Just want to add something. You can easily tell if you have this burr. by running your finger perpendicular to the edge. First of all for explanation, if the side edge was done last, the burr will be pointing down toward the snow, if the base was done last, it will be pointing out to the side. You can feel this by running your finger along the base and off the edge, as it falls off the edge it should be smooth. ditto going from the sidewall down the edge toward the base. it should be smooth all the way along the edge in both directions. I don't see why a fine diamondstone can't be used.

I think that's a good description.

A-man, what do you call a ding in the ski after it hits a rock? When your edge look serrated. I've always known that as a burr also.

Anything (to a much lesser extent, a soft gummy stone) will detune the ski to some extent if you don't hold it to match the angle of the edge.
You just said it, a ding.

I think that description sucks. it is not "waste material" it is just how the edge is now shaped. If it was waste material, why is it still connected to and part of the edge. Removing the hanging burr properly without a bevel guide does not dull your skis nor detune them, period, end of story! But using a diamond stone on your base edge will increase your base bevel even with a bevel guide.

I don't know if your read the Holmnekol articles but they don't use and diamond stone or any stone at all ever on the base edge. They use the finest file available to set the bevel angle and then polish with a gummi stone. I

I said a very fine diamond could be used but is not the preferred method.

the hanging burr off the base edge (if you did your side edge first and then your base edge, does not have the same effect as the burr going down into the snow and will generally breakoff when skied on.

Almost all if not every single article I have read says to do your base edge first and then your side edge.

And you always have a burr after tuning! Using a stone flat against your base with your thumb as a guide on the top edge of the ski is vetry easily done and has no negative effect on your sharpness nor bevel angles.
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post #43 of 59
11/2/06 at 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Which is why a diamond stone in a base beveller is my preferred burr removal technique.
the comment you are responding to is just not the case.
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post #44 of 59
11/3/06 at 2:46am
Thread Starter 

Excuse the diagram...

Excuse the diagram!

So you use a small pocket arkasnas stone or Transulucent surgical stone to get rid of the burr indicated in the diagram?

If there's a nick on the side edge causing it to be unsmooth, then you can buff the side edge until smooth with some sort of ceramic stone and a bevel guide to make sure you have to correct angle? I assume this is what my instructor did on the slopes except he didnt use a guide just ran a stone parallel across the side edge until it was smooth.
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post #45 of 59
11/3/06 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
You just said it, a ding.
I think that description sucks. it is not "waste material" it is just how the edge is now shaped. If it was waste material, why is it still connected to and part of the edge. Removing the hanging burr properly without a bevel guide does not dull your skis nor detune them, period, end of story! But using a diamond stone on your base edge will increase your base bevel even with a bevel guide.
Agreed, but the image it evokes in my mind is fairly accurate.

I don't know if your read the Holmnekol articles but they don't use and diamond stone or any stone at all ever on the base edge. They use the finest file available to set the bevel angle and then polish with a gummi stone. I said a very fine diamond could be used but is not the preferred method.
Whatever, I also said a very fine diamond. and I still don't see the harm in using it lightly on the base, let's agree to disagree.

Quote:
the hanging burr off the base edge (if you did your side edge first and then your base edge, does not have the same effect as the burr going down into the snow and will generally breakoff when skied on.
Almost all if not every single article I have read says to do your base edge first and then your side edge.
I thought we were talking about a burr that was missed by a ski shop tune, who knows which edge they did last. Yup, base edge first.

Quote:
And you always have a burr after tuning! Using a stone flat against your base with your thumb as a guide on the top edge of the ski is vetry easily done and has no negative effect on your sharpness nor bevel angles.
I said "if you don't hold it to match the edge", using your thumb as a guide would qualify.
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post #46 of 59
11/3/06 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Removing the hanging burr properly without a bevel guide does not dull your skis nor detune them, period, end of story! But using a diamond stone on your base edge will increase your base bevel even with a bevel guide.
How is it possible for a base bevel, that is set using a full width 1 degree guide to be increased by using a diamond stone in the same full width guide? Sounds like a 1 degree guide won't give you a 1 degree bevel?
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post #47 of 59
11/3/06 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
How is it possible for a base bevel, that is set using a full width 1 degree guide to be increased by using a diamond stone in the same full width guide? Sounds like a 1 degree guide won't give you a 1 degree bevel?
If you continue to work on your base edge and make too many passes regardless of the bevel angle of your base beveler you will over bevel your ski. I hear of people and have skied on folks skis who used a 1 degree base beveler and their skis are over beveled. how does this happen? And trust me it happens. too much pressure and too many passes on the base edge. You always want to do the exact same number of passes when working on your edges.

This is why folks like to use a marker pen on their edges and only work on them untill all the pen is gone and no more. it is not just too make sure you take enough off, it is also so you don't take too much off,
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post #48 of 59
11/3/06 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
Agreed, but the image it evokes in my mind is fairly accurate.

I don't know if your read the Holmnekol articles but they don't use and diamond stone or any stone at all ever on the base edge. They use the finest file available to set the bevel angle and then polish with a gummi stone. I said a very fine diamond could be used but is not the preferred method.
Whatever, I also said a very fine diamond. and I still don't see the harm in using it lightly on the base, let's agree to disagree.


I thought we were talking about a burr that was missed by a ski shop tune, who knows which edge they did last. Yup, base edge first.


I said "if you don't hold it to match the edge", using your thumb as a guide would qualify.
We were not just talking about a burr a ski shop left. Hanging burr is created by any work on your side edge. Whether a shop tunes your skis or you have them stone ground and tune yourself.
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post #49 of 59
11/3/06 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonFreeman View Post
Excuse the diagram!

So you use a small pocket arkasnas stone or Transulucent surgical stone to get rid of the burr indicated in the diagram?

If there's a nick on the side edge causing it to be unsmooth, then you can buff the side edge until smooth with some sort of ceramic stone and a bevel guide to make sure you have to correct angle? I assume this is what my instructor did on the slopes except he didnt use a guide just ran a stone parallel across the side edge until it was smooth.
Your diagrams make perfect sense to me.

Only thing I would add is you do the 45 on the edge extremely lightly with a gummi stone only.

the small occasional burr or nick is not worth screwing around with, in fact unless really deep or long you are not going to notice it. I never screw around with the side edge on the hill. Also, trying to get these meaningles little nicks out does more harm then good.

Don't get too excited about minor nicks in your edge. My experience is trying to take those out hurts more then helps.

When your edge gets too rough, you use a file and completly redo your side edge & leave your base edge alone.
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post #50 of 59
11/3/06 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
the small occasional burr or nick is not worth screwing around with, in fact unless really deep or long you are not going to notice it. I never screw around with the side edge on the hill. Also, trying to get these meaningles little nicks out does more harm then good.
Good comment. IMO, if the nick is into the edge it's less of a concern than a burr sticking out from the edge. Much like a gouge or scratch running the length of the ski versus against it. I'd argue that most skiers wouldn't really notice a nick while skiing, especially in soft snow....and that spending too much time dealing with them and minor imperfections at the expense of taking down the base is unnecessary. So I wouldn't recommend dealing with it unless it truly bugs you either aesthetically or functionally. Call 'em battle scars, personalizing or 'distressing', to add character to your boards.
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post #51 of 59
11/3/06 at 6:38pm
If you have to ask if the ski sharp... then it isn't sharp enough...
You should worry about the ski sliding through your fingers and amputating a digit if it slips...
On ice, a sharp edge will have a sustained burr along the whole side-edge after a few thousand verticle.
0.5 base and 88.0 side ( 2.0 degrees ) is a much more durable edge than an 87.0 ( three degree ) side edge... but the difference is gee its icy and real performance.
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post #52 of 59
11/3/06 at 9:17pm
Sorry g-force, but that's a pile of misinformation that needs to be cleared up. A sharp edge absolutely should not be able to cut fingers unless you really slide your hands against them hard. If an edge is easily cutting skin then it is burred (we've discussed this before). A well finished and polished sharp edge is not dangerous to hold.

Also, the durability of a 2 degree side edge versus a 3 degree has been debated many times and there's no empirical evidence that 2 degree is any more durable in the real-world. Yes, it seems like it should be, but that extra degree doesn't really subject the edge to any more abuse - and a 3 degree side bevel performs noticeably better than 2 degrees.
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post #53 of 59
11/3/06 at 10:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
If an edge is easily cutting skin then it is burred
Or it is as sharp as a knife.
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post #54 of 59
11/3/06 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
Sorry g-force, but that's a pile of misinformation that needs to be cleared up. A sharp edge absolutely should not be able to cut fingers unless you really slide your hands against them hard. If an edge is easily cutting skin then it is burred (we've discussed this before). A well finished and polished sharp edge is not dangerous to hold.

Also, the durability of a 2 degree side edge versus a 3 degree has been debated many times and there's no empirical evidence that 2 degree is any more durable in the real-world. Yes, it seems like it should be, but that extra degree doesn't really subject the edge to any more abuse - and a 3 degree side bevel performs noticeably better than 2 degrees.
EXACTLY!!!!!
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post #55 of 59
11/3/06 at 10:14pm
A perfectly square edge that is sharp can cut you.
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post #56 of 59
11/3/06 at 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
A perfectly square edge that is sharp can cut you.
Yes, it CAN cut you, but only if you really push your hand against it. If you really follow the world class tuning advice (like from the Holmenkol site) and prepare the edges properly then they should not be dangerous to touch (like a knife). My edges used to be dangerous, but I realized after reading many of A-man's posts a few seasons ago that I must be doing something wrong. The missing ingredient in my edge preparation was Moonflex diamond files. They have without a doubt completely changed my perception (and reality) of what a finished edge should feel like. If you're not following the Holmenkol guidelines and also using Moonflex then you're really not "there" yet with ski tuning IMO.
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post #57 of 59
11/4/06 at 2:35pm
Different strokes for different strokes. I'm siding with Big E here. I don't desharpen my ice-skates either. I don't want my edges letting go. I see nothing wrong with my edge "railing" the snow; I like skiing like I'm on rails. I also ski a lot of very hard very smooth very thick ice.

When I first peeled the wrapper off my SGs the factory-tuned edges were sharp enough to cut my fingers with little pressure, and the skis worked wonderfully.
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post #58 of 59
11/6/06 at 4:02pm
I've had 2 different tuning clinics from Swix lately:

Both of them have demonstrated a 'sharp' edge by squeezing the side edges between their thumb and fingers and sliding their hand down the length of the ski. If your fingers get cut doing this your edge isn't 'sharp', it's burred! Your edges should be sharp and shiny and smooth.
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post #59 of 59
11/6/06 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Or it is as sharp as a knife.
Knives have burrs, and the "sharpening" steel is there to shape and orient them.
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