or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › REI messed up my new sticks -- what now?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

REI messed up my new sticks -- what now? - Page 4

post #91 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Can they remount without changing your position on the ski? The original poster had the option to remount because his ski had not been drilled very close to where he wanted the mount position. If your heel is 3/16'' off, I don't think they can redrill that close to existing holes.

Are telemark skis designed to hold a heel piece? I thought skis had to have some extra metal under the intended binding mount area.
If it's only the heel piece that is off kilter, which could happen if they accidently moved the jig after drilling the toes. then they can use the same toe holes, and just redrill the heel either fore or aft. the adjustability of the binding should make up the difference, and the boot will be in the same place.
post #92 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Can they remount without changing your position on the ski? The original poster had the option to remount because his ski had not been drilled very close to where he wanted the mount position. If your heel is 3/16'' off, I don't think they can redrill that close to existing holes.

Are telemark skis designed to hold a heel piece? I thought skis had to have some extra metal under the intended binding mount area.
I will find out for sure what/how they plan on making this right when the dept manager is in on Wednesday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee View Post
We should all keep in mind that every shop will occasionally screw up. The difference between a good shop and a not so good one is the frequency and in the way they deal with it.
This is my sentiment.
I have had really good luck with this shop for everything bike related, and only recently started turning to them for my ski needs. Well, whatever ski needs Phil doesn't fullfill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
If it's only the heel piece that is off kilter, which could happen if they accidently moved the jig after drilling the toes. then they can use the same toe holes, and just redrill the heel either fore or aft. the adjustability of the binding should make up the difference, and the boot will be in the same place.
This may be what they are doing. Again. I will know more on Wednesday.


At the end of the day, I am someone who wants to be proud of my character no matter what the outcome. I won't be demanding, but I will let them know that I'm knowledgable and have a request of them. I am confident they will come through for me.
post #93 of 145
2-turn's post about the adjustability of the heel position relative to the screw hole position has relieved my chief concern. I'd probably let them remount if that is the case, and it sounds correct. Although I haven't used heel bindings or given them much thought in many years, I think they always had some ajustability to move the heel back or forward after mounting.
post #94 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
2-turn's post about the adjustability of the heel position relative to the screw hole position has relieved my chief concern. I'd probably let them remount if that is the case, and it sounds correct. Although I haven't used heel bindings or given them much thought in many years, I think they always had some ajustability to move the heel back or forward after mounting.
Just be sure they didn't screw up the toe also, as can be checked easily with the jig. If both were angled, correcting just the heel would put the 2 pieces out of alignment which, it seems to me, might cause release problems, since the boot would go into the toepiece at an angle. Hopefully, they only screwed up the heel.
post #95 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
Just be sure they didn't screw up the toe also, as can be checked easily with the jig. If both were angled, correcting just the heel would put the 2 pieces out of alignment which, it seems to me, might cause release problems, since the boot would go into the toepiece at an angle. Hopefully, they only screwed up the heel.
Trekchick, did you get the toe checked on the jig? Do they even have a jig?
post #96 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Trekchick, did you get the toe checked on the jig? Do they even have a jig?
Turns out They don't have a jig 99mm.:

Aparently the 'goof' I talked to when I asked if they had what they needed to mount a 99mm waisted ski, had no clue.

Went to pick them up last night. I was extremely kind but made it clear that I was also not happy with a "second drill" in my NEW skis. "The man in charge" was extremely humble, understood how I felt, and asked me to "give the skis a chance".

In turn I got, Free mounting(duh), free fat brake(50.00/list, maybe 25.00/cost), a written statement that they will replace the skis if I have any problems whatsoever. I told them that my husband may be in the market to replace his race tigers, and told them what I would expect to pay for them. Last night was not the time to be dealing with it but I have been assured that I will not be disappointed.

So, I'm being extremely kind, in that I didn't demand an immediate replacement.
They, are likely going to set my husband up with race tigers at cost.

This may not be the deal to everyones liking, but I feel as though I've maintained my integrity, while asking for some extra attention in my future relationship with this shop.
post #97 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick View Post
Turns out They don't have a jig 99mm.:

Aparently the 'goof' I talked to when I asked if they had what they needed to mount a 99mm waisted ski, had no clue.

Went to pick them up last night. I was extremely kind but made it clear that I was also not happy with a "second drill" in my NEW skis. "The man in charge" was extremely humble, understood how I felt, and asked me to "give the skis a chance".

In turn I got, Free mounting(duh), free fat brake(50.00/list, maybe 25.00/cost), a written statement that they will replace the skis if I have any problems whatsoever. I told them that my husband may be in the market to replace his race tigers, and told them what I would expect to pay for them. Last night was not the time to be dealing with it but I have been assured that I will not be disappointed.

So, I'm being extremely kind, in that I didn't demand an immediate replacement.
They, are likely going to set my husband up with race tigers at cost.

This may not be the deal to everyones liking, but I feel as though I've maintained my integrity, while asking for some extra attention in my future relationship with this shop.
Pretty much what I expected fromthe start, they didn't have the right jig and tried to mount them freehand. If you wanted an half ass job done, you could have done it your self . My concern is not so muvh the heel that was visably off center, but the two toes and hte other heel that might be just a smidgen. I would have to see the torque test numbers to make for the left and right release numbers are identical.

What they are offering is real close to being fair. Free mounting, free wide brakes and some Volkls at cost. It is a win/win for both sides and you didn't hold their feet to teh fire and burn a bridge when and if you need them in the future.
post #98 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese View Post
What they are offering is real close to being fair. Free mounting, free wide brakes and some Volkls at cost. It is a win/win for both sides and you didn't hold their feet to teh fire and burn a bridge when and if you need them in the future.
It was a good deal, plus, by not demanding too much, every time you go in there you will get special treatment.
As for the "Goof", he knew they had the tools to mount the binding, just not for wide skis. To be honest, whenever I mount skis that don't fit into the jig, I do the same . Except, When I mount a wide ski, I take extra care, and I have the owner of the shop hold the jig in place while I drill. unfortunately, being on the east coast, we don't get a lot of skis that don't fit into the jig.
post #99 of 145
With the large variety of skis and bindings I would think that it is almost impossible to have all of the jigs for all situations, but it is not acceptable to accept the customers money and freehand the mount without first advising the customer and letting the customer make the decision. If you don't have the proper equipment and "go for it" don't complain when the customer gets unreasonable. "I thought it would work ok" is only ok when it was the customer's decision.
post #100 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by flaskier View Post
With the large variety of skis and bindings I would think that it is almost impossible to have all of the jigs for all situations, but it is not acceptable to accept the customers money and freehand the mount without first advising the customer and letting the customer make the decision. If you don't have the proper equipment and "go for it" don't complain when the customer gets unreasonable. "I thought it would work ok" is only ok when it was the customer's decision.
I don't know anyone on the east coast that has wide enough jigs for a 90+ waisted ski. But one can still use the jig (just not in the way intended), and using triple extra care, the mount can be done correctly. OTOH, someone could have all the proper tools, and still get it wrong.
post #101 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
I don't know anyone on the east coast that has wide enough jigs for a 90+ waisted ski. But one can still use the jig (just not in the way intended), and using triple extra care, the mount can be done correctly. OTOH, someone could have all the proper tools, and still get it wrong.
Old carpenters code:
Measure twice, cut(drill) once!

Don't get me wrong folks.
I really wish I had the right mount the first time, and this situation hasn't thrilled me, but they displayed a positive attitude in dealing with me and I am happier with myself because I bahaved like "Me". At the end of the day, I think my character is worth more than a $160.00 pair of skis.
post #102 of 145

Thought I'd bump this up since I had a similar problem with REI

Bought a new pair of Gotama's and bindings from REI a few weeks back (total costs over $700). They mounted them and I took them out for a weekend (3 days) of skiing hardpack at Mammoth. No problems.

Then I went back to Mammoth last weekend, on my 2nd run down a steep chute my ski popped off in the middle of a turn. Turns out the toe piece had pulled out of the ski. After a pretty scary decent down the steep hard packed chute on one ski I retrieved the ski. A patroler was coming down the slope and asked if I needed help. She took a look at the binding and said that the screws they used weren't long enough and that's why the binding pulled out. I demo'd a pair of skis for the weekend at a cost of $135.

I contacted REI's corporate who told me that their "Saftey Coordinator" would contact me. I'm waiting (it's only been 2 days) to hear back but I'm wondering what you guys think is fair? I'd like a new ski, mounted properly and for them to pay for my demo since I shouldn't have had to pay for them when I just bought new skis.
post #103 of 145
Hmmm... Keep us informed. I'll be interested to see how this plays out. What kind of bindings?
post #104 of 145

Bindings

They were marker something 12's. Can't remember exactly. I was in a bit of a rush to get them mounted so I just bought the best ones they had in the store. Think they were onsale for $179.
post #105 of 145
I was reading through this and I think the last comment really reinforces my point. I feel like shopping at Huge Stores like REI and EMS for gear is one thing, but when it comes to tuning, and especially mounting skis you want to go to a SKI SHOP, preferably one recommended by locals/mountain employees, or people on this thread (who are often both.) This is work that is done by hand, and must be preformed by skilled, dedicated shop technicians. Larger stores A) don't specialize in just skiing, and therefore don't dedicate much of their time or money to worrying about their ski shop, and B) generally try to crank out as many jobs as quickly as they can... often compromising quality in the process.

The bottom line... buy your hats, gloves, pants, etc at the big box stores if they have the best deals, but for work that needs to be done to your skis by skilled hands, go to a real shop.
post #106 of 145
Yeah, lesson learned. I really like REI for gear, too bad they couldn't get this right. IF they give me new skis I'll be sure to take them to a recommended ski shop for mounting.

I forgot to mention that they even charged me $25 for the mount; add that to the list of things I'd like to be fixed.
post #107 of 145
So do you guys agree with what I'm expecting them to do for me?

1. Replace skis with new
2. Pay for weekend demo
3. Refund mounting fee
post #108 of 145
Well, a couple things:

1. REI's techs have to be certified to work on and install bindings, just like any other shop. With that said, some techs are good, and others, well... : Don't discount them totally. You may have gotten THAT guy. The guy that used a 4.1 bit instead of a 3.5. I've seen it here more than once.

2. When I was a tech, I would occasionally see a binding tear out. 90% were Markers, and probably 75% were the heel pieces. I've never liked Markers, and the only way I'd ever use them is in a system where they did not have to be drilled. Some people love them. I'm not one of those people. The heel screws were always too close together for me. That said I HATE the single front screw design in the toe. Those and the new Salomons give me nightmares. What a DUMB idea - the torsional forces are huge there - what 1 more screw going to hurt??

3. You said "bit of a rush" -- does that mean you waited in the store for them to be mounted? Sometimes that can lead to "in a hurry" mistakes.

4. Did you give them a good inspection before you skied them? Were the screws sunk in? Was there any gaps? The tech should have looked for that too, but you know...

5. "Short screws" -- I never really know what to think about this. Every binding I ever mounted came fresh out of a box, so all the screws were there from the factory. I just never can see the "wrong screws" argument, but maybe I was just lucky. Most shops don't swap out screws on new bindings unless they add or remove a lift plate. every binding I've ever worked on came with them already semi-mounted. Also, with a quick glance on the hill, a patrol might have a hard time determining if the screws were too short, especially if they had maybe never been screwed down enough, or had pulled back up into the binding holes. I know I would have a tough time saying that for sure. Be careful how much faith you give to that "diagnosis". Just sayin'... :

Anyway, you deserve some kind of compensation. It just depends on what you go after. I'd personally set the bar high - start with an all new setup. Then bargain from there.

Good luck.
post #109 of 145
I agree with axebiker -- don't rely 100% on the patroller's on-hill diagnosis. Actually, if you had pictures, I bet you'd get some good additional opinions here. Basically, the screws should poke through the bottom of the toe piece about 7mm if they are long enough. axebiker is also right that most bindings come with the screws in a temporary "captive" arrangement, already in the binding and ready to screw into the ski. There is generally no reason to choose or swap screws because of this.

That said, bindings shouldn't just tear out of skis, so something must have gone wrong, even if it wasn't the screws. I think you are being 100% reasonable in your expectations for REI. I have a feeling they may treat the issue differently than a regular dissatisfied customer because of the liability aspect, as evidenced by them saying the "safety coordinator" would get back to you. I don't know, maybe you would have better luck if you dealt with customer service instead of corporate -- I can just imagine how a call like that makes red flags (and red tape) shoot up all over the place in a big company!

Good luck, and keep us posted. REI normally does right by the customer, and I would expect no less in this case.
post #110 of 145
Thanks for the reply. No I didn't wait, they had 2 full days to get them done, I was just saying I didn't want to run around and shop for different bindings (mistake maybe).

Regarding them being too short, I agree the patrol may have just guessed. I'll wait and see, but being it was my 4th day on them and considering I've never had that problem before they need to make it right.

From a worst case scenario, how bad would it be to just have the bindings remounted elsewhere? I understand it'll hurt resale, but from a practical perspective, does it really matter?

Hopefully the person from corporate calls me back by tomorrow, otherwise I'll probably head into the store since I need this fixed by next Thursday (3/27) when I head out to Alta for a weekend. Anyone going to be out there?
post #111 of 145
A few more points.

1) Don't rely 10% or even 1% on the patrollers diagnosis. It is probably wrong.

2) The screws that come with any new adult bindings are long enough.

3) If the problem lies with the installer it is probably due to over tightening the screws with a screw shooter with the clutch maxed out and/or drilling the holes the wrong size.

4) If it can be determined that the error lies with the installer, then the shop is liable for the replacement OR repair. Volkl almost certainly will not cover this.

5) While some folks may not wish to have a ski mounted (or remounted) with inserts, the proper insert is a stronger mount than any std. screw arrangement. That is between you and them but it is a reasonable solution. FWIW I have mounted skis with inserts for pro riders and racers for decades and have never seen a ski fail at the mounting point. (Derby/De-Flex mounts excepted)

SJ
post #112 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by socaltransplant View Post
So do you guys agree with what I'm expecting them to do for me?

1. Replace skis with new
2. Pay for weekend demo
3. Refund mounting fee
I agree 100%.
post #113 of 145
Not sure if this helps any, but since I don't have picture, yet; the screws pulled out pretty cleanly. Thanks for the all the advice.
post #114 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by socaltransplant View Post
Not sure if this helps any, but since I don't have picture, yet; the screws pulled out pretty cleanly. Thanks for the all the advice.
If by "cleanly" you mean they didn't tear the topsheet at all, my guess is one of these:

1. Wrong drill bit, or
2. Screwed on too tight as Sierra Jim had mentioned. I've had this happen myself while mounting bindings on foam core skis - not ALL foam is the same... : Again, easy fix with a helicoil, but the customer should always be notified. I HATED K2 skis for this... Some Rossis too.

In either case, it could easily be repaired with helicoils, but I'd probably ask for replacement first. Hope it works out for you.
post #115 of 145
The Gotama is wood core, not foam. If its an 08 Gotama, then it should be the wood core with each wood layer encased with fiber material, which should make the ski far more substantial than wood core.
post #116 of 145

Inserts ok?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post
A few more points.

5) While some folks may not wish to have a ski mounted (or remounted) with inserts, the proper insert is a stronger mount than any std. screw arrangement. That is between you and them but it is a reasonable solution. FWIW I have mounted skis with inserts for pro riders and racers for decades and have never seen a ski fail at the mounting point. (Derby/De-Flex mounts excepted)

SJ
Sorry for a bit of thread hi-jack here, but was told to do a search when I posted my original mounting problem earlier http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=68099
...front of heel piece 5 mm off center, toe piece and back of heel piece 2 mm off center resulting in 3 mm crooked. The second ski looks fine.

Intersport Bourg St. Maurice tech's solution when he said he was only going to "look" at the problem (after I told him I did not want him to drill new holes) was to put inserts in the front two holes for the heel piece making the binding straight but 2 mm off center. After originally telling me that the fix was 'his secret" the tech admitted to putting in inserts and told me that they would last 20 years.

My regular shop, which did not have the right jig, looked at the insert and said it might hold IF it was done with epoxy, but said that they should have ground down the insert so that it was flush with the ski. This shop is run by an English group that said they would have replaced the ski if it was their screw up, but was not surprised by the French shops response.

The insert did not look like a heli-coil, but I don't know what it is or how it was put in.

Questions-

How likely is the insert to hold?

Does anyone think that 2 mm off center affects a 96 mm wide skis performance?

FWIW, I can't say I have noticed an issue with the 2 mm in the 3 or 4 days I have skied mostly off piste and really like the way the Atuas handle.
post #117 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
The Gotama is wood core, not foam. If its an 08 Gotama, then it should be the wood core with each wood layer encased with fiber material, which should make the ski far more substantial than wood core.
You're right - but in the hands of the "right tech", NO core is safe.

I was just using those skis I mentioned above as an example of how careful you need to be sometimes. Sorry - I should have been clearer.
post #118 of 145
Yup. Brand new 08 Gotama's. Headed to the Santa Monica REI store today regardless of whether I hear from the corporate office as promised. I'll let you know what happens.
post #119 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post
Does anyone think that 2 mm off center affects a 96 mm wide skis performance?
Doubt it. But it would drive me nuts.
post #120 of 145
There's a very easy way to make yourself heard in these situations. Simply ask for the number of the District Manager, and when you call them make sure you have the number and name of a claim handler in the Better Business Bureau in your area. Tell the RM POLITELY what happened, how much time on the slopes you've missed out on, and how you feel the situation could be resolved to your liking. Let them know that if they are not willing to satisfy you as a customer, you will be lodging a complaint with the BBB. Remember- be as nice to the RM as possible, if he thinks you're a jerk, he may not help you at all. I think a pair of PEs would be even better than troublemakers at a decent price difference, and if you get someone high up enough they won't care about the $. The tech will probably get written up, but who cares. Good luck
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › REI messed up my new sticks -- what now?