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New Forum Request: Beginners' Zone - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Bonni, I don't think there is opposition. Welcome to the world of forum planning. What needs to happen at this point is to develop some consensus on content and the implementation strategy.
  1. Where should the forum be posted? Does it fit in General or Specialty Forums?
  2. What are the parameters or guidelines for posting, or moderation?
  3. What content should be included off the top?
  4. Are there existing posts that can be used to populate the new forum? Post Links.
  5. If special content like a glossary, gear or instruction will be developed, we need to decide what to include and find volunteers to put it together.
Site administration and moderators have been bringing new content to the forums and sometimes spent months and hundreds of messages working out the details. Sometimes those ideas don't get concensus, sometimes they do. This is a great idea, and hopefully some members of the community will get behind it and spend the effort that is needed to make it happen. I would suggest people who want to be part of a planning focus group post their names here, then start a thread here or in the lounge to work on it. Exchange IM addresses, even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni View Post
Thanks, nolo. It is never as easy as you think it is. You have a good point about defining terms. Perhaps a list of just the terms that don't have a dozen meanings. No one would dispute the meaning of 'chicken heads', although there are more ways to describe 'icy chunks of snow on a groomed run' than just using one term.

If it truly is a good idea, then it will be done. I'm just trying to understand why there is so much opposition to making an area to help beginners. It's baffling.
post #32 of 59
Another note to piggyback on Cirque's: too many people involved can make this kind of thing very difficult to actually complete. If you have a passion for it, contact GarryZ or me by PM and we'll figure out how to add you into the mix. I am simply coaching the group on its development, not really actively participating, although I think it's a great idea.

BTW, please be aware that it doesn't make sense to brainstorm this to a great degree in public at least until it has a pretty consistent plan. Some of you may hear from the planning group through PM and I hope you'll be willing to respond (and, again, if you want to participate on the team, let one of us know).

I hope this helps...
post #33 of 59
Count me in to help out. I can create some fundamental fitness plans, etc.
post #34 of 59
I guess I'm going against the grain here, but I think it would be much more useful to create a separate forum for basic "how to" discussions--at any level. "Beginner" is variably defined, and really, the best skiers are all beginners at whatever is their next step.

The problem I see is that "how to ski" discussions are currently mixed in with in-depth discussions of technical minutiae and theory, and also with "how to teach" discussions--a different subject altogether!

A separate area for "beginners" won't solve that problem.

Best regards,
Bob
post #35 of 59
Bob raises an interesting option. The instruction area itself has already been proposed to be expanded to include a movement analysis forum. Separating discussions of teaching methodologies, skiing theory and a "basic how-to" forum is an intriguing option.

How would you feel about making some of the high level discussions like teaching theory and methodologies an exclusive supporter benefit?
post #36 of 59
I think it'd be great! (I'm not a supporter, I'm a freeloader).
post #37 of 59
A beginner needs a lot of how-to stuff that goes way beyond the mere beginner lesson. This applies to both skiers and boarders. The first question a newbie needs answered is "when should I go skiing (boarding), and where?" A beginner's needs are very different from those of an experienced skier. All of the off-piste stuff at a place like Snowbird, for example, is useless to a beginner, even though it really makes the resort what it is. A beginner needs to know what to wear and bring and how to get to the resort. A beginner needs to know the parking drill (usually drop the heavy stuff off near the lodge, and then go backout and park, but not always). A beginner needs to know what stops to make on his trip through the base area, typically ticket windows, then rental shop, the snowsports school. A beginner needs to know to get boots that fit, and needs to understand about staying hydrated, and applying sunscreen. When the beginner gets into a lesson, the beginner needs realistic expectations, and needs to understand the process. The beginner needs to know where to get food and drink (alcohol if applicable after skiing, too). Finally, at the end of the day the beginner needs to know how to return rental gear, get everyone into the car, and the best way to get home. The beginner should also be assured that it is OK to exagerate to anyone who wasn't there to watch the skiing.
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
How would you feel about making some of the high level discussions like teaching theory and methodologies an exclusive supporter benefit?
I don't think that would work out to well. If you did that, all the other instruction posts would keep getting hijacked.
post #39 of 59

My 2 Cents

Perhaps I can offer some info and constructive critique.

What follows is partly based on my correspondence with another registered user. Basically, the bottom line is some of us who are less advanced and skilled feel intimidated by the advanced skiers here who generally make up a large bulk of the posters. There are many beginner/intermediates out there such as myself who could benefit from such a forum and would be happy to donate. There really is no such forum on the internet at the present time.

The problem with the forums here(as well as others) is not that you can't get any constructive info but that the replies to questions often are condescending, sometimes hostile or argumentative. Granted many skiers here have the right to be cocky but it's hard to fit in with the advanced crowd when you are someone like myself who is content to skiing the blues and greens. Sometimes you might be afraid to ask a question as you don't want to be labeled in a certain way or come accross as silly, uninformed, or worse yet a 'Gaper'.

Also, a lot of us beginner/intermediates are not real up on all the tech jargon and lingo so the teaching forum can be confusing. Again, one might be reluctant to ask for clarification on some topics because one does not feel comfortable as you are simply a low level skier.

Granted this is a hard task to do on any forum but it would be nice to have an area where you can check your ego at the door and everyone knows where you are coming from.

I can only speak for myself(and one other) when I say quite frankly as an intermediate skier I don't feel at home here and sometimes am reluctant to ask a question as I feel I might be talked down to, ignored, or simply scoffed at in a condescending way. There seems to be 2 groups here - the in crowd and everyone else.

Everyone is here for different reasons I guess and all of us have something to learn. We are all at different stages and levels, however. What may be a simple question to one is very important to another. Having an area devoted to us 'lower' skiers would make it easier and less intimidating. There are a lot of egos out there.

Please take this opinion in the spirit in which it was intended. I hope you undersdtand what I am saying and I dont come accross as too harsh. Just giving an honest opinion. Anyways this really is a nice place to get info but you do have to sift through a lot of static.

Before anyone tells me to hit the door if I don't like it I am not saying this is not a beneficial and worthwhile forum. I am simply being honest and giving an honest opinion. If someone else does not like my opinion I cannot help that. We are all free to disagree.

There are many at my skill level who I believe would love to be part of such a forum and community and would be happy to donate to further such an effort. I would even offer to volunteer to help moderate such a forum.

Regards
post #40 of 59
PaulR,
Your opinion, as well as all others, are welcome here.
post #41 of 59
I wouldn't feel bad about posting that, PaulR. Nice job. Who can argue with your perceptions, when stated respectfully as you've done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
There are many at my skill level who I believe would love to be part of such a forum and community and would be happy to donate to further such an effort.
Point taken.

I became a supporter rather quickly after joining simply because I got a lot of great information out of this forum and I see myself getting more as the months progress. I don't feel comfortable posting much in the ski forums themselves (with a few exceptions), but I have enjoyed dabbling in the supporters lounge forums, humor, and even politics (stop me now) and chatting with a few of the Bears through that. A beginners area would be another place I would feel comfortable participating, but I'd encourage current beginners or intermediates (like myself) to begin supporting EpicSki now and take advantage of these other light : parts of the forum as a means of getting involved initially.

The benefits of the rest of the ski forum from a knowledge-gained standpoint can't be discounted, either, whether or not you post anything. There's a lot of good information there that deserves to be listened to. And that alone is worth the supporters dues in my book. Shucks -- a community is comprised of those who speak and those who listen. There's a lot to be said for keeping quiet and absorbing stuff!

Note to self: Follow own advice.

Cheers!
post #42 of 59

agree again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
I guess I'm going against the grain here, but I think it would be much more useful to create a separate forum for basic "how to" discussions--at any level. "Beginner" is variably defined, and really, the best skiers are all beginners at whatever is their next step.

The problem I see is that "how to ski" discussions are currently mixed in with in-depth discussions of technical minutiae and theory, and also with "how to teach" discussions--a different subject altogether!

A separate area for "beginners" won't solve that problem.

Best regards,
Bob
Once again as is often the case (funny how that works out) I agree with Bob. I resubmit my suggestion respectfully from Nolos can you learn to ski on epicski...cut and pasted here, and thread linked to below.

___________________________________________
Epicski Supporter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Yawgoo Valley, RI
Posts: 942


my .02
I would respectfully suggest splitting this current forum into 2 new forums...

-ski technique
-ski instruction

the ski instruction forum might be a candidate for more moderation IMHO to keep discussions on task, agenda/big ego free and civil so as to be more useful to someone seeking to learn. Just a noise reduction moderation to keep the threads focused. You know, keep silly people like me from rambling too much about old school nonsense....

The thread starter could define the target skier in the thread title. RicB and therusty , bob barnes, nolo or even weems come to mind as potential moderators as they are always civil. Not volunteering (or excluding) anyone, just a few names that come to mind. Bob Peters would work too

The instruction discussions are a real front page face for epicski on the WWW, I think it needs to be cleaned up a bit. Moderators would of course have to move a lot of threads until folks figured it out

My opinion of course disagree at will

_____________________________________________

the technique forum?

gloves off:

tcs,hs,waist steering?

bring it all on!
___________________
___________________


Link to Nolos excellent thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...eferrerid=8500

___________________________________

To elaborate a bit, in the instruction forum identify the target of the thread(beginner, intermediate etc) and the moderators will keep the thread focused and on task. This will be much simpler to follow than a beginner forum....then a intermediate forum and on and on.....and under no circumstances will anyone be picked on "jonged" or called a "gaper" (unless of course they use ski-totes)

You get the idea, too much clutter....(kinda like this post )

In the technique forum, fire away at will.
post #43 of 59
Thank you, PaulR, for stepping up and speaking your mind. You are the reason that the idea for a beginner Slow Zone percolated in the first place (well, not you personally, but your level of skier). I fully agree with you, and I know you're not the only one who feels this way.

I still feel that way.

However, the egos here are not large enough to discount the value of helping the ducklings cross the road. We were all new to this once, and we have not forgotten what it's like to be overwhelmed and intimidated.

To have a mentor is the greatest gift. I hope Epic can find a place for you. :

Hrstrat57........I think that sounds like a great idea! Different level of instruction question all in one place! Ssh, do you think that instead of smilies on the side of the thread, we can get the trail symbols....green circle, blue square, blue diamond, double blue diamond, black diamond, double black diamond, triple black diamond, and tombstone as designators for the content level?
post #44 of 59
hrstat..I don't think its just technique though. Its everything. For instance I have never ridden on GS boards or currently use 182 modern skis. Its hard for someone who uses this class of ski to share advice with intermediate as they probably never have used todays intermediate skis.

Also I do think many are afraid to really state their true abilities when in the company of true advanced/expert skiers because they want to be part of the crowd. This tends to make people overstate their ability/needs ect. The advice one would get with this not be meaningfull or worthwhile. One would also not to admit one posesses less skill.

Having a dedicated area for folks like myself who are not in the same league one would feel more at home and engage in more honest dialogue and not feel the need to put on a an air of expertise that one does not posess.

Also it is nice to share with like minded individuals. If you were a chemistry freshman in a room full of physics professors would you be comfortable to raise your hand and share your experiences and knowledge?

I think there is a reason you dont see a lot of posts by self professed beginners or intermediates. And it isnt because they are not here or registered. Look at the member count.
post #45 of 59
PaulR

If someone as polite and respectful as you gets "jonged" at all....I wouldn't worry about it, just keep reading and learning and post any questions you have.....you might be surprised how many of us might learn from the answers...perhaps a different way of looking at something we thought we knew all about? I find that on here all the time....

Take me for example. Up until last year I thought 168 carvers were goofy....then I hooked up with Cirquerider.

The rest as they say has been well documented history.

Ad nauseum:

Keep fearlessly posting my friend, you bring the goods. You can PM me anytime too about any ski related thing.
post #46 of 59
The idea of having 2 different forums, for "technique" and 'instruction' reminds me of something they did recently on a weather forum I'm on.

There used to be a forum called Breaking Weather where approaching weather events could be discussed, and then reported on as they "hit".

For some reason, they decided to make 2 forums out of this. Briefing and Breaking. Briefing was for discussing forecasts of coming weather, and Breaking was for real-time reports of these events.

Seems neat and clean on paper, but in practise is a dog's breakfast, people don't know where their post belongs, and sometimes threads don't get started because a mod will come along and say it's in the wrong forum. In reality, there are many shades of grey and they make the whole thing very complex.

What is technique and what is instruction? I think the two are very closely woven. Some may be able to sift them apart, but I guarantee that many who want to start threads or participate in threads won't have the same view, and the free flow of information and conversation will become awkward and stifled.

WRT the Beginners' Forum, PaulR's words are very useful as they highlight the various issues beginners face that we often skim over or think are "common knowledge". It's not just about technique, but about every little thing to do with getting equipped, making bookings, buying stuff, you name it.
post #47 of 59

Beginner Forum

PaulR, very well stated, I hope the Epic people working on this idea all read your post. Even though a person/skier can just stick in there and learn on Epic. It is a fact of human behavior that not all people will do this, want to do this or even try to do this. I have already volunteered to help and think this would be an interesting and favorable side tangent for Epic. If sucessful it will certainly be interesting to see how many silent PaulR's there are on epic. It may be a suprize. There is a place for clear, concise, keep it simple ski talk. I still don't really understand hip steering, after reading all those posts. It got to the point that I just don't give a dam and stopping reading. PaulR and friend hang in there. Epic has really meant a lot to me. PaulR if you'll notice my signature is NESC (Non expert skiers club) wanna join?
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR View Post



Also it is nice to share with like minded individuals. If you were a chemistry freshman in a room full of physics professors would you be comfortable to raise your hand and share your experiences and knowledge?

I think there is a reason you dont see a lot of posts by self professed beginners or intermediates. And it isnt because they are not here or registered. Look at the member count.
Here it is, Bears. For most of you, your livelihood is talking to you. What will you do with this information?

Telling them to cowboy up and just keep reading is not the best advice you can give. There are women, teens, older new skiers, and spouses of skiers. They have issues. They feel intimidated.

How can we make them feel comfortable, for it's true that as it stands, they are not. Or do you feel it's worth it to take the time to make everyone feel good about their present skiing level?
post #49 of 59
You are right, Bonni. We cannot expect everyone to be comfortable driving 100 mph on the superhighway of skiing know-how.

I don't think we need to argue for or against roping off a slow skiing zone at epicski. But let's keep it simple and focused. It strains my credulity when people quibble about what constitutes beginner content--think back to when you were one, what advice would have really helped you out; what insider knowledge would have been really useful; how nice would it have been to have a primer on all the jargon used in skiing? It boils down to Maslow, fitting into the culture and belonging to this sport.
post #50 of 59
What nolo said.:
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni View Post
Here it is, Bears. For most of you, your livelihood is talking to you. What will you do with this information?

Telling them to cowboy up and just keep reading is not the best advice you can give. There are women, teens, older new skiers, and spouses of skiers. They have issues. They feel intimidated.

How can we make them feel comfortable, for it's true that as it stands, they are not. Or do you feel it's worth it to take the time to make everyone feel good about their present skiing level?
Present them with a place they can find basic information and get their questions asked with clear and simple answers.

Create control of the responses by establishing ground rules for their posting.

Make it evident we enjoy their company and find them to be an important part of this forum.

Respect the viewpoint their questions come from . There are no stupid questions . The quality of the answers is the key to the success of this forum.

That is how I think it needs to be done.
post #52 of 59
Totally new web-site: www.epicskibeginners.com
post #53 of 59
?? Is this link supposed to work, BigE? ??

Nice summary, GarryZ. It's a winner!
post #54 of 59
I think what GaryZ says has it pretty much covered.

I have lurked here before I registered in January. One thing that I immediately noticed was often when a brand new member asks about a ski or some particular issue quite often the response is 'Do a search, look it up'. If you observe you will see the newbie never posts again.

I understand the owners pay for bandwith and memory and don't want repetitive info or posts but from the eyes of a newbie to this site such a response comes accross as unfriendly and unwlecoming. The first impression you get is your question is trivial or should be common knowledge. One would be reluctant to post again. First impressions are everything.

I also notice the attention a post gets is usually directly proportional to the popularity of the poster. When a newbie sees their post get little reply or notice they feel like unwelcome.

Of course these are things you will see on any public forum but again I am just offering the honest observations of someone relatively new here. These things stuck out with me in particular when I first came here. There does seem to be kind of a clique here that you either are part of or are not. It seems hard to be part of the clique if you are not a top level skier.

All this I think causes newcomers to overstate their abilities or true needs-if one guy says he skis 60mph then I have to as well in order to be part of the fold. Arguments then start about who skis the fastest or has the longest ski ect.

Perhaps there could be a speciifc 'guest host' or moderator that looks out for new posts and makes sure the newcomer understands where to find info ect. For instance after the post the moderator could have a script that gets put in the reply welcoming the new guest and offering some info on where to go for info ect. Anything is better than a newcomer seing 'look it up' in reply to his first post.

btw...I do enjoy this site and plan on sending in my $20 donation to the address in MT. I am one of those old dudes who still get the heeby jeebys with online transactions.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
PaulR, very well stated, I hope the Epic people working on this idea all read your post. Even though a person/skier can just stick in there and learn on Epic. It is a fact of human behavior that not all people will do this, want to do this or even try to do this. I have already volunteered to help and think this would be an interesting and favorable side tangent for Epic. If sucessful it will certainly be interesting to see how many silent PaulR's there are on epic. It may be a suprize. There is a place for clear, concise, keep it simple ski talk. I still don't really understand hip steering, after reading all those posts. It got to the point that I just don't give a dam and stopping reading. PaulR and friend hang in there. Epic has really meant a lot to me. PaulR if you'll notice my signature is NESC (Non expert skiers club) wanna join?
I am still trying to figure out what waisteering is :
post #56 of 59
I'm not a good skier, PaulR, and I have met and skied with a number of Bears who are WAY better skiers than me! I've skied with people I've argued with (who.....me? ) and had a great time.

I don't go 60 mph. I don't even go 10 mph. I don't huck cliffs, don't have a quiver of skis, don't know or care about every kind of ski on the market and how it performs, don't spend a fortune on clothes and gear, don't ski out of bounds or in bounds in the trees. I poop around and fall down and other Bears who ski with me will wait for me.

They're the most special bunch of people I've ever known. Give them a chance and you'll have friends for life.:

Waiststeering!? We don't need no stinkin waiststeering!:
post #57 of 59

Beginners

Garry Z and Nolo, good posts right on the mark. This idea and realization will be a win win for everyone.

No waist steeing - my kinda site.
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni View Post
?? Is this link supposed to work, BigE? ??
Nope.

Still a good idea I think. Better than yet another forum in some ways. But less visibility I guess. And you have to navigate to get there too....

Forget it.

Carry on..
post #59 of 59
Paul, I agree and disagree with what you say. First, I agree that the reply telling someone to use the search function is obnoxious. It has nothing to do with the owners desire to efficiently use bandwidth and everything to do with individuals who feel either frustrated that a subject has been covered extensively in the past and the person posting has made no attempt to look for it; or they feel the answer may be such common knowlege that the question may be a troll. Anyway, some members feel enforcing forum ettiquette is their perogative and duty; others will let it slide and give a useful answer and welcome. In many cases I have seen new members welcomed, and helpful answers and discussion ensued. Unless it is an attack, the moderators either stay out of it, or post a welcome message.

The attention that a post gets is more related to its relavance and general interest. I have posted plenty of flops here. An interesting title, an engaging introductory discussion, a relatively easily answered question, and an element of controversy ususally gets a good reply. Sometimes it seems to me the most unlikely subject will take off and become a multi-page thread. Like any social settting, the reception of a poster is more related to social skill than skiing skill. Its a common misunderstanding that status in this community is related to skiing ability. Its a good thing, because I'm getting too old to keep up the act .

We are passionate about skiing and have great respect for our expert and professional membership; but they are rarely the members with the highest post count. Posting leads to familiarity and recognition. Efforts to go skiing with others and to participate in events like the ESA and gatherings are even better. Claiming skill in skiing is NOT appreciated by the community. Its much better to have nothing to prove, than to try to live up to an internet fabricated fantasy of skiing the gnar. I think most members try to realistically state (or understate) thier skill levels. If anything, the most popular members here are humble.

A safe zone is a good idea, and I'm impressed with the response threads like the "First Chair" and the KISS threads in the instruction forum have gotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
I think what GaryZ says has it pretty much covered.

I have lurked here before I registered in January. One thing that I immediately noticed was often when a brand new member asks about a ski or some particular issue quite often the response is 'Do a search, look it up'. If you observe you will see the newbie never posts again.

I understand the owners pay for bandwith and memory and don't want repetitive info or posts but from the eyes of a newbie to this site such a response comes accross as unfriendly and unwlecoming. The first impression you get is your question is trivial or should be common knowledge. One would be reluctant to post again. First impressions are everything.

I also notice the attention a post gets is usually directly proportional to the popularity of the poster. When a newbie sees their post get little reply or notice they feel like unwelcome.

Of course these are things you will see on any public forum but again I am just offering the honest observations of someone relatively new here. These things stuck out with me in particular when I first came here. There does seem to be kind of a clique here that you either are part of or are not. It seems hard to be part of the clique if you are not a top level skier.

All this I think causes newcomers to overstate their abilities or true needs-if one guy says he skis 60mph then I have to as well in order to be part of the fold. Arguments then start about who skis the fastest or has the longest ski ect.

Perhaps there could be a speciifc 'guest host' or moderator that looks out for new posts and makes sure the newcomer understands where to find info ect. For instance after the post the moderator could have a script that gets put in the reply welcoming the new guest and offering some info on where to go for info ect. Anything is better than a newcomer seing 'look it up' in reply to his first post.

btw...I do enjoy this site and plan on sending in my $20 donation to the address in MT. I am one of those old dudes who still get the heeby jeebys with online transactions.
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