or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# Inside Leg - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Whatever works, works, to paraphrase William James.
But the question is, will what works today work tomorrow?
Exactly. There are many ways to skin a cat, though some ways will get less blood on the walls.
I have found that although some students don't know which is their left ski they all know which is their other left ski.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick And Ricb, I was just pulling your chain a little with the falline to falline thing.
Oh, I kinda figured you were, but it never hurts to express and revisit my own thoughts on things like these. Later, RicB.

### inside / outside / old turn / turn

Just my \$0.02 worth.
in all turns, we are either:
a) between edge change and direction change
or
b) between direction change and edge change

a goes to b when the ski are in the falline

b goes to a as the CM crosses over the feet

from a to a, inside/outside remains inside/outside,
but uphill/downhill changes

from b to b, uphill/downhill remains uphill/downhill,
but inside/outside changes

as to the "old" xxx ski, i never did figure that out....
The inside ski is the left ski when turning left.
The inside ski is the right ski when turning right.

I never had a problem with inside ski/ outside ski, but I did have trouble with uphill/downhill ski. If you are not already indoctrinated by a series of lessons, your turns do not necessarily follow a set pattern. You could turn from going accross the hill and turn to the fall line: inside ski is always downhill. You could be following the fall line and turn off into a gap in the trees: inside ski is uphill ski. You could ski in a circle around a bump.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by docbrad66 as to the "old" xxx ski, i never did figure that out....
Doc,,, we use the terms "OLD" and "NEW" inside or outside ski when we are talking about the period in which we are finishing one turn and transitioning into the next. It's during this transition period that the skis exchange their inside/outside designations.

As such, it can become very confusing when talking about the inside or outside ski in the context of a transition if we don't signify inside/outside as it existed during the prior turn (OLD) or will exist during the turn to come (NEW).

And just to make sure you're clear with all this, here are what all the terms you will see refer to when used in regard to an across the falline turn transition.

OLD INSIDE SKI - (this will be your uphill ski while you're in the transition)

OLD OUTSIDE SKI- (this will be your downhill ski while you're in the transition)

NEW INSIDE SKI- (this will be your downhill ski while you're in the transition)

NEW OUTSIDE SKI- (this will be your uphill ski while you're in the transition)

Make sense?
It seems to me that it's rather pointless to choose a "correct" or "best" terminology for this important concept, because it always depends on context and on the individual you're communicating with.

Sometimes I'll talk about inside ski/outside ski, sometimes uphill/downhill, and sometimes left/right--whichever best gets the point across. Inside/outside may never change throughout a turn, but which is the inside ski in a straight run or a traverse? Since transitions generally take place while going across the hill, and since the actual moment when one turn becomes the next is sometimes nebulous, at least in many skiers' minds, uphill-downhill ski is often less confusing when discussing this critical phase of turns. It's certainly a lot simpler to talk about the "downhill ski," than to say "the ski that will become the inside ski of the upcoming turn, once it begins."

Once a turn is obviously started, and especially as you approach the fall line, inside ski/outside ski may be clearer.

What about poles? Do you plant the inside pole, or the outside pole?

And, of course, if you're discussing a right turn, little could be clearer than right ski/left ski (or "red ski/blue ski," depending on the audience). "Right tip right to go right" is about as simple and unambiguous as it gets.

"Stance ski/free ski" may have a use at times, but it begs for definition at least--without explanation, really, what is a "stance ski"? And if you're trying to describe which ski you ought to balance on, "stand on your stance ski" becomes circular and pretty much useless. And what if you're equally weighted?

Bill Irwin of Elan Skis used to (and may still) talk about the "filling ski" and the "crust ski," based on the image of skiing around the edge of a pie. Sounds silly, but it's a vivid picture that I'll bet few will forget!

Ultimately, it's simply about communcation, isn't it? Whatever gets the job done most clearly, least ambiguously, most efficaciously, at the moment. . . is the best terminology!

The complication multiplies by at least two when you talk about edges. Anatomy can help, hence the clarity of the time-honored "big toe edge/little toe edge" description. But instructors often speak of "inside and outside edges." So which is the "inside edge of the inside ski"? Is it the edge closer to the inside of the turn (the little toe edge of the inside ski)? Or is the inside edge the edge toward the centerline of your body--doctors might call it the "medial" edge, as opposed to the "lateral edge." It's not uncommon to describe a wedge as involving both "inside edges."

Someone once proposed simply numbering the edges from left to right--one, two, three, and four.

Whatever works!

Best regards,
Bob
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado Since transitions generally take place while going across the hill, and since the actual moment when one turn becomes the next is sometimes nebulous, at least in many skiers' minds, uphill-downhill ski is often less confusing when discussing this critical phase of turns. It's certainly a lot simpler to talk about the "downhill ski," than to say "the ski that will become the inside ski of the upcoming turn, once it begins."

But that's the problem, Bob. "Generally" imposes limits on the situations in which the terms UPHILL and DOWNHILL can be used. With any turns that transition IN the falline, the use of UPHILL and DOWNHILL with regard to the skis during the transition become incomprehensible gibberish.

And even when turns transition across the falline, once the skier moves out of the transition the appropriateness and accuracy of the terms UPHILL/DOWNHILL become compromised, as does the clarity to the intelligent student. To overcome that issue new terms really need to be adopted post transition, but in doing so the continuity is lost.

INSIDE/OUTSIDE is bullet proof in it's accuracy and clarity, through all phases of a turn, through any shape turn, through any number of connected turns, and through any type of turn, transition, or variance of pressure distribution.

And as far as the exact moment of turn change being somewhat nebulous; you're right without a doubt. But I really believe that the overall process of causing that change of turn direction to occur is both deliberate and recognized to most skiers, and as long as they can comprehend that the process is occurring, they can recognize that their skis are in the process of changing inside/outside rolls. They don't have to be cognizant of the exact moment it takes place, they just need to be aware that the process is happening, and that when they find themselves turning in the new direction they know that their skis will have switched their inside/outside designations. That's all they need to understand for the OLD/NEW terms to make sense.

INSIDE/OUTSIDE is really such a simple concept when talking about turns, and it works across the board, from day one on skis, to the most advanced and complicated drills at the uppermost levels of the sport. I really wish all teachers of new students would take a moment to explain it. For the vast majority who would easily comprehend it, the knowledge and usage of the concept would serve them well for the remainder of their years on snow. For the rest, go ahead and stick tape wherever you need to.

As for traverses? Uphill and Downhill are great.

Straight runs down the falline? Left and right works super.
Inside/ outside has been my standard for years but I also use left / right a lot because like Nolo says, it connects so well to the objectives of a left, or right turn. Chris' question brings up an interesting subject though. As the lesson evolves do your students feel free to ask if they don't understand?

### which ski is which

I find myself using left/right, inside/outside, and uphill/downhill in my teaching. What really matters is that my students know what I mean, and I do take the time to establish this. I also encourage them to ask for clarification any time they aren't sure of what I'm saying.

The CSIA tells its instructors to keep explanations brief in a effort to to keep students skiing, and to avoid those long winded lectures on the side of the hill that instructors are famous for. But taking a few moments to clarify things is time well spent.

cdnguy
Exactly, cdnguy!

### A student's perspective

I have skied for over 40 years and have raced for the last five or so. I have had a lesson or a clinic every year in the past eight or so, and in a good year get 20 or more days of on snow coaching or instruction. I have a large pile of books on skiing in my house, some of which I've read several times. I regularly read and post on EpicSki. I spend an appalling amount of time this time of year thinking about high level racing technique and photo montage or video analysis.

And I don't know--not even faintly--what you mean when you say uphill ski, unless your description is about a specific point prior to initiation of a turn. Literally. I have no idea. You tell me "inside ski" or (in transition) "inside ski of the old turn" and I know exactly what you mean.

I have never, ever, ever understood a reference to uphill ski except in that one position, moving across the hill prior to initiation of a turn, and the only way I can tease any meaning at all out of a reference to uphill/downhill ski is to translate it first into outside or inside ski and go from there.
Clearly, "uphill ski/downhill ski" only means anything when there actually is an uphill ski and a downhill ski--or a "peak ski" and a "valley ski," if you prefer--as there is whenever you're on a hill and your skis are pointing any direction but straight uphill or straight downhill.

All of these terms are situation-based, and few can stand on their own. In other words, as many have pointed out, you can't just say "inside ski" without specifiying whether you're referring to the turn you're in or the upcoming ("new") turn. And you can't just say "uphill ski" of a turn without specifying whether you're talking about the top half or the bottom half of a turn. As long as the context is clear, so is the description.

Quote:
 I have never, ever, ever understood a reference to uphill ski except in that one position, moving across the hill prior to initiation of a turn,
Of course not, sfdean, although I would suggest that "uphill ski" still means the same after the initiation as prior to it, all the way to the fall line, as long as you're traveling across the hill. As you suggest, you clearly do understand it in this situation. But you don't know which ski someone means when they say "inside ski" either, unless they further specify which direction they're turning (left or right), and whether they're referring to before or after the transition, do you?

Since, for better or worse, much technique discussion revolves around this transition phase of turns, which almost always takes place while moving across the hill, I maintain that "uphill ski" is a very useful and unambiguous description, much simpler than "outside ski of the upcoming (or new) turn" and less prone to misunderstanding by those many who are not completely clear exactly when the "old" turn becomes the "new" turn. When you're talking about that transition phase, why use a term whose very meaning changes at a critical point in that phase? And--sometimes critically important--which ski is the inside ski at that precise moment of the transition?

On the other hand, it is obviously also a problem when someone talks about "the downhill ski of the turn," which happens unfortunately often and which is, indeed, meaningless.

Again, I submit that uphill/downhill, left/right, inside/outside, stance/free, peak/valley, red/blue, crust/filling, or tape ski/plain ski all have uses. Any of these could paint the clearest picture in the right situation for a particular person. And any could be meaningless or confusing in the wrong situation or for the wrong person. If "Bert & Ernie" makes the point, it is the "right" terminology!

No one has answered my question yet: Should you plant your inside pole or your outside pole? Why not? Clearly, despite their simplicity, the terms "inside" and "outside" can be very ambiguous! Clearly, you swing the outside pole, but if you plant it at turn initiation (another discussion, perhaps), it's the inside pole (of the turn you've just started). Same pole, of course.

Best regards,
Bob
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado No one has answered my question yet: Should you plant your inside pole or your outside pole? Why not? Clearly, despite their simplicity, the terms "inside" and "outside" can be very ambiguous! Clearly, you swing the outside pole, but if you plant it at turn initiation (another discussion, perhaps), it's the inside pole (of the turn you've just started). Same pole, of course.
interesting point. There are an awful lot of skiers zooming around making late pole plants. They are indeed planting the inside pole. But they are also late. There is no question that the swing and pole preparation happens on the outside, which is one very good reason to think about the pole plant as being on the outside and at the end of the turn, rather than on the inside to start the turn.

Certainly a blocking pole plant is at the end of the previous turn.

This also makes me wonder if people will tend to rush their turns a little bit when trying to make the pole plant on the inside at the start, because they can't plant their pole until they are starting the new turn.
Bob is right, the transition is a crucial period, and one that can be subject to ski identification confusion.

If you've paid attention to my writings here on the epic instructional forum you'll know that I often identify the old or new inside or outside skis during a transition with uphill or downhill in parenthesis. Such as; old inside (uphill) ski, or, old outside (downhill) ski. I do this for educational and clarity reasons. It helps those who are not familiar with these important terms to quickly grasp what I mean by them.

On snow it's even easier; I just supplement my terminology with a visual indication of the leg/foot/ski I'm talking about. Understanding is instantaneous, as is the important education process that accompanies it. It's really a simple process, and it prepares students for later skill development where simple inside/outside terminology helps students to quickly comprehend any complex new drill, skill, or movement process being introduced.

But oh well, that's OK, you guys go ahead and use whatever smorgasbord of terms you think you need to communicate when interacting with your students. Left/right, uphill/downhill, inside/outside, blue/yellow, crust/pie, tire/rim, bark/wood, shell/powder, shore/lake,,, whatever you want. I'll simplify it for them when they get to me.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado No one has answered my question yet: Should you plant your inside pole or your outside pole? Why not? Clearly, despite their simplicity, the terms "inside" and "outside" can be very ambiguous! Clearly, you swing the outside pole, but if you plant it at turn initiation (another discussion, perhaps), it's the inside pole (of the turn you've just started). Same pole, of course. Best regards, Bob

If anyone has carefully read this entire thread, they will know that you plant your old outside pole. :

Pretty simple,,, huh?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado No one has answered my question yet: Should you plant your inside pole or your outside pole? Why not? Clearly, despite their simplicity, the terms "inside" and "outside" can be very ambiguous! Clearly, you swing the outside pole, but if you plant it at turn initiation (another discussion, perhaps), it's the inside pole (of the turn you've just started). Same pole, of course.
Remember the introduction of early weight transfer in the early 1980s? That was sort of the beginning of modern offensive skiing, I think. The consensus that developed as EWT became more accepted was that the pole plant was more of a touch and came at or just before the top of the extension. I think that timing carries over nicely to today's offensive approach whether there is an extension or not. That is, the touch occurs now as the edges change. That, to me, makes it the inside pole. Preparation for the pole touch is a part of passing through neutral between turns.
all I have to say is left and right get REALLY confusing whn you are spinnin around!
My .02 cents worth.

When going straight down, you have a right and left ski. When traversing, you have an uphill and downhill ski. When turning, you have an inside and outside ski.---------Wigs
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado No one has answered my question yet: Should you plant your inside pole or your outside pole? Why not? Clearly, despite their simplicity, the terms "inside" and "outside" can be very ambiguous! Clearly, you swing the outside pole, but if you plant it at turn initiation (another discussion, perhaps), it's the inside pole (of the turn you've just started). Same pole, of course.
Neither, you plant the downhill pole.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wigs My .02 cents worth. When going straight down, you have a right and left ski. When traversing, you have an uphill and downhill ski. When turning, you have an inside and outside ski.---------Wigs
Bravo Wigs, common sense at last!
Is it just me or is everyone circling the same dilema. The old is a turn a C shape or does a turn refer to "fall line to fall line"?

I have always found that inside/outside worked best when describing the turn as C shaped. However, uphill/downhill has worked best when refering to turns as the movements from fall line to fall line.

Similarly, when I have used the old "use the right ski to turn right" philosophy (initiating with the inside ski) I have found many people get off balance trying to force their inside ski too far, and thus screwing up their whole body geometry (for lack of a better term).

Now with little kids, real little, I have used their peanuts butter foot and their jelly foot (when they don't know right and left) and also used a lot of pressure/unpressure, weight/unweight to explain turns as they don't have the same level of congnitive ability (sometimes I think the kids can be smarter than the adults though because they often don't overthink)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching