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high speed short radius angulation conundrum

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Consider the following. You are in a long radius turn at 60 mph with your edges barely holding onto the snow. Of course, you want to go faster. Wether it be the next time down or the next turn of the same size, whatever, let's just say you have the means to access more speed. How do you go faster around the same size turn without loosing your grip. In the old days with straight skis, you could angulate more, putting your skis more on edge and thereby reducing the ski's tendancy to slip up and sideways out of it's track.

Now here's the problem. If you crank those suckers up with these stupid-short-radius modern gs skis, the sidecut will attempt to make a very noticeable reduduction in the dialed up turn radius. If you're already at the limit of traction, asking the skis to turn tighter might not help them stay on track.

What to do? What to do?

Also, considering where your cm has to be in order not to tip over the outside ski (net torque about cm = 0, or line of action of gravity + momentum through cm must be through edge applying the turning force), how does increasing angulation help, once you are the point where maximum sideways force must be resisted. Where and how does angulation move (or not move) your cm in relation to the position of the edge applying the force.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about skiing for maximum g-force at about 60 mph, not slalom turns.
post #2 of 15
>>>>how does increasing angulation help, once you are the point where maximum sideways force must be resisted.<<<

At that point you mighy think about ditching angulationan and do some banking.

....Ott
post #3 of 15
Ghost, maybe this angulation calculator will help you figure it out

http://www.natew.com/frame_main.cgi/...snow/html.Main
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
>>>>how does increasing angulation help, once you are the point where maximum sideways force must be resisted.<<<

At that point you mighy think about ditching angulationan and do some banking.

....Ott
Speaking of ditching stuff, Ghost, one might want to consider ditching the 21 meter GS length skis when speeds breach 60 mph. Sanctioned races don't allow GS skis in speed events for good reason. THEY'RE DANGEROUS. They're just not made to operate well under those driving conditions.

I've skied at super G speeds on SL skis. Yikes! I don't advise it. Can anyone say reverse angulation?
post #5 of 15
Ghost, Im not shure what your question is but if you want to go faster without tightening up the turn radius you gotta swap to straighter or stiffer skis. You are also mentioning stupid-short-radius-modern-gs-skis! I agree with you that 21m gs skis are not made for high speeds like you are talking about but no race department 185cm skis that I have ever tried have had that short turn radius. They have been more like 27-30m and stiff as hell.
post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks. I've tried SG speeds on my SCs. The trouble with reverse-angulation is that with the ski on a lower angle (to maintain the radius), it would require more down force not to slip out of it's track, and you can't reposition your cm over it without going over the handlebars so to speak. I guess the solution to the conundrum is to do what the racers do and use SG skis at SG speeds and GS skis at GS speeds.

I'm still adjusting to the modern age. My SG skis were bought at an ordinary street-level store. You don't see too many skinny long radius skis in the stores these days, and the ones you do are mogul skis. Maybe I should just slow down.
post #7 of 15
Definately slow down.

The speeds you are talking about should really be reached only in a closed course (or otherwise guaranteed empty trail) to ensure that no unsuspecting skier strays into your path. How can you manage that at Blue Mountain?

I'm sure you ski very carefully, but the consequences of mixing such speed with rec skiers is enormous. Have many close calls?
post #8 of 15
What is "reverse angulation"?

cdnguy
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnguy View Post
What is "reverse angulation"?

cdnguy
Angulation is used when banking does not provide the state of lateral balance we desire.

Normal angulation is when we need to angulate to the outside of a turn to move our balance point toward the outside. It's used when banking leaves our balance point further inside than we desire.

Reverse angulation is when we angulate toward the inside of a turn to move our CM toward the inside. It's used when banking leaves our balance point further outside than we desire. Such a state was unknown before shape skis, so reverse angulation was an unrecognized concept. Now with radical sidecuts it's actually possible to create a situation in which banking a turn creates such centrifugal forces that if the snow is such that the edges hold, the balance point is outside of the outside ski and the skier is pitched over the skis.

It's not a balance equation phenomenon that the average skier will ever encounter. And not one the intelligent skier ever should either.
post #10 of 15
Indeed. Most skiers over-estimate how fast they think they are actually going. I'm not meaning to challenge Ghost here..he may very well be going 60mph. But many people don't realize how fast 60mph really is and how fast it can feel going 40mph or even 30-35mph.. 60mph is indeed dangerous for open slopes too and most times you will get a lift-pass ripped for skiing that fast. It truly should be reserved only for a closed course and truly should be on specialized skiis as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Definately slow down.

The speeds you are talking about should really be reached only in a closed course (or otherwise guaranteed empty trail) to ensure that no unsuspecting skier strays into your path. How can you manage that at Blue Mountain?

I'm sure you ski very carefully, but the consequences of mixing such speed with rec skiers is enormous. Have many close calls?
post #11 of 15
Are there any photos of any WC guys or other high level skiers skiing with a reverse angulation position?
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Definately slow down.

The speeds you are talking about should really be reached only in a closed course (or otherwise guaranteed empty trail) to ensure that no unsuspecting skier strays into your path. How can you manage that at Blue Mountain?

I'm sure you ski very carefully, but the consequences of mixing such speed with rec skiers is enormous. Have many close calls?
I have had no close calls with other skiers or boarders while skiing fast. The steep sections always seem to end a long way from the lift line. I also always approach blind drops slowly and skim along the top perpendicular to the fall line to scout it out before aiming downhill, which makes it harder to reach high speeds, but I must see how clear the path is. If there are only a few skiers on the run I can easily avoid them at speed. They may consider that I'm passing too close though. I always give them at least a few metres.

The last time I had a close call, I was actually skiing back up hill carving a circle (more like an ellipse), not skiing fast.
post #13 of 15
This is like asking how to drive a golf ball 400 yards with a 9-iron?
Answer: Off the top of a mountain....

If you really want to go a true 60 mph or faster, and be carving, consider getting on a tool designed to do so, a SG or even DH board.
Then sign up for a race camp that can provide (safe) speed event training.
post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
If you really want to go a true 60 mph or faster, and be carving, consider getting on a tool designed to do so, a SG or even DH board.
Then sign up for a race camp that can provide (safe) speed event training.
Excellent advise.

It's a little late in the game for me (though I do have one suitable tool), but for any youngsters with a taste for speed, could you advise on how best to get into official sanctioned safe fast skiing. Do you just ask at the ski school desk of your local mountain? What if you don't have much time available? Can you sign up to go DH racing on the odd Saturday? How does it work, for the uninitiated?
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Excellent advise.

It's a little late in the game for me (though I do have one suitable tool), but for any youngsters with a taste for speed, could you advise on how best to get into official sanctioned safe fast skiing. Do you just ask at the ski school desk of your local mountain? What if you don't have much time available? Can you sign up to go DH racing on the odd Saturday? How does it work, for the uninitiated?
Ghost, it's not to late for you. Come on out to Colorado, we have plenty of speed events in USSA Masters racing for old farts like you. I bet you'd have a ball. All you need to do is pay the fee for a USSA competition license. In fact, with that license, you could even compete in some of the local junior speed events that are close to you.

As for juniors, get them on a race team at their local resort where they can learn the technical skills needed for speed events. Kids are not (and should not be) just plopped onto a downhill course without any training. In fact, they will be pulled during training runs if they display a lack of skill to the point of being a danger to themselves.
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