EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › How many waxes do I really need?
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How many waxes do I really need?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I am a very aggressive recreational skier (I do not race, but ski as if I am racing). 99.5% of the time I am on man-made snow/ice. After last year, when I got really hurt from my edges sliding out on the ice, I have decided that the one tune before the season and one mid season is not enough, especially when you ski for 4-6hrs per day, 5-7 days per week during a 3 month season. Ski tuning does not last 180hrs.

So, I have decided to buy my own tuning equipment so I can afford/have the time to tune weekly. After reading about waxes, there seems to be many options, most which appear would only shave a fraction of a second off your time, but I do not race. So, what wax(s) do I need to have good performance without spending $30 to wax my skis every few days? For example, would I notice the difference between a standard hydro wax and a fluoro wax? Also, would I be able to get away with only a high temp wax and a low temp, or do I need something in between, or can I just get one? I have read that applying a wax with graphite every so often can help on man-made snow, is this true, and if so, is it worth it?

I would like to be able to buy in bulk since the price cuts are substantial.

I was origninally planing on getting a base prep wax, generic wax for cleaning, and 2 or 3 temp specific waxes.

Thanks
post #2 of 28
What snow temperatures and humidity levels will you be skiing in? How much of a change in these will likely occur during any given day?
post #3 of 28
For Roundtop? Prep and hard is all you really need since even on warm days that stuff is -sharp-.

7S- much, much wetter snow even though it's also manmade. Dunno, depends on temps.
post #4 of 28
Unless you become a serious racer, you don't need HF or pure flouro and the humidity calculations and extra base cleaning that it involves.

However, I have found LF wax to be more durable that the CH, and I feel it is worth the extra $ just for the extra base protection. It cost about 3 times as much, but offers about that much more wear, so you don't have to wax as often.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
The low fluoro waxes seemed pretty reasonable if you buy them in bulk. What temps would I need? Air temp is usually in the 20s, but sometimes it is around 0 and others it is around 40, but I do not know what the snow temp or humidity level would be.

Has anyone else read anything about the graphite waxes being good for man-made or should I just not worry about it?
post #6 of 28
Generally, an all-temp universal LF (or CH) will perform OK in a broader range but not optimal. The more temp and humidity specific you get, the better it'll perform for a given range. Many rec/performance skiers still like to dial it close, while others want to keep it simple and still decent.

Sounds like a bulk hot LF and either a cold CH or LF could be your main waxes, while maybe sprinkling in some graphite for real cold days (or do something else ), along with some other flavors to experiment with on occasions. Chart.
post #7 of 28
I DO race, and even so, I use CH 7 probably 80% of the time. If the temp drops below 15 or so, I use CH 6.
In the spring, when it gets above 30, I start using LF8. I don't notice much of an advantage to Flouro's unless the temp is up around 30 or higher.
post #8 of 28
I have three. One for warm wet, one for really cold, and one for everything else. I think the Flouro makes a difference, but I can't say if it's worth it to you though.
post #9 of 28
I am with UP on this one. I also mostly use CH wax for my basic waxing. I use LF as a final coat before races or if it is REALLY warm out. Using HF and LF all the time will dry out your bases because the flouro is not god for the base (from what I have heard - and since it gives you cancer too I can understand why it isn't good for the bases ). Buy a prep block, and a CH7 and a CH8. Skiing in PA you will rarely need a CH6 and probably won't be able to tell the difference anyway.
Later
GREG
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Skiing in PA you will rarely need a CH6 and probably won't be able to tell the difference anyway.
Heh. That's the only part of that post I'd argue with. Used up 2-300g per person last season.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Heh. That's the only part of that post I'd argue with. Used up 2-300g per person last season.
I didn't say you wouldn't be able to tell the difference... I said he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. To be honest the only time I ever use 6 is when I am practicing on cold nights (which was usually every night of the week), but anytime I am skiing during the day 7 pretty much covers it unless the weather is extremely cold. I find that the 7 keeps the bases in better shape and makes for a faster base in the long run (no burn).

Later

GREG
post #12 of 28
As an alternate to Swix or Toko, I like the Sun Valley Ski Tools hydrocarbon waxes for everyday skiing or training. I use the yellow for base prep and hot scraping, the red and blue for most conditions, and the violet for really cold weather. For aggressive snow, I go down a temperature range for base protection. For wetter snow, I throw on a cheap overlay (like Zardoz) over the base layer.

You can get 10oz bars (approx 280g) of the SVST wax for $10. I run through a ton of the yellow, since I hot scrape with it everytime I wax. Next off I probably use the blue most, followed by the red. I rarely use the violet, but there are a few bars in the wax box for those cold days.

I have a lot of HF/LF/CH waxes from other companies, and I use them for races or for serious training. But 9 times out of 10 I'm reaching for the SVST wax when I'm prepping the quiver.
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
since I am new to tuning, I will need a whole setup. From what I have priced out, it will cost over $700. This seems a bit excessive. Do I need brushes, and if so, what kind? Is there any other way to cut the price without sacrificing a noticable amount of quality? Anything will be better than what I did before, but I also do not want to have to buy better stuff in a year or two.

Thanks for your advice.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesgig View Post
since I am new to tuning, I will need a whole setup. From what I have priced out, it will cost over $700. This seems a bit excessive.
Yep. Does that price include ski vises and tuning bench?

Quote:
Do I need brushes, and if so, what kind?
1 brass, 1 nylon, plastic scraper, steel scraper, side edge guide, files/stones, iron, wax, p-tex.
Done.

Quote:
Is there any other way to cut the price without sacrificing a noticable amount of quality?
Don't mess with the base bevel (for now).
post #15 of 28
Read the Tuning FAQ. It has a bare bone minimum list of stuff that will get you started at least. Really for your kind of skiing (not racing) you don't need the best stuff that money can buy. I have a lot of tuning equipment, but am no where near spending $700 on it.
Later
GREG
post #16 of 28
Tools4Boards Deluxe Tuning Station Ski & Snowboard Wax Kit
-Complete DIY ski and snowboard edge, base work and waxing kit! 1) NEW XACT ALL-IN-1 TOOL! - durable Lexan polycarbonate tool sharpens and bevels ski or snowboard side edge, base edge and trims excess side wall • Side-edge and Base-edge angle options from 0° to 6° • Patented adjustment feature provides simple and accurate bevel angles - simply turn knob to clamp file, or pull and turn knob to adjust bevel angle • Ceramic rollers minimize friction and allow filings to fall away from base. • Includes high quality Swiss-made file blade and instructions 2) MAPLUS WAX - 30 grams Maplus warm temp. (-5° to 0°C) and 30 grams cold temp. (-10° to -5°C) high melt paraffin 3) MAPLUS CORK & NYLON BRUSH - ideal for rubbing wax into base and opening base structure after waxing 4) SIDE-WALL CUTTER - German made panzer file ideal for safe, easy removal of ski or snowboard edge offset material before side-edge filing 5) BRASS FILE BRUSH for removing filings from file teeth 6) ALUMINUM-OXIDE STONE for de-tuning, de-burring and polishing edges 7) P-TEX BASE REPAIR CANDLES for repairing minor gouges in base (Black and Clear) 8) STAINLESS STEEL SCRAPER with burred edge for removal of excess base material 9) PLEXI SCRAPER - 10" wide, 5mm extra thick plexi scraper for both skis and snowboards 10) 3M SANDPAPER - Fine, 180 grit for creating base structure 11) 3M SCOTCHBRITE PAD for removing micro-hairs on base material 12) DETAILED DIY INSTRUCTIONS - everything you need to know for professional results.$51.99

Tools4Boards CordLoc Ski Vise
Economical vise for alpine, xc, tele and bc skis. Secure hold on all ski shapes, 3 support points, allows for both side-edge and base tuning $69

Brass $15.84 & Horsehair brushes $13.23

800W Iron $49.99

$200 less EpicSki Supporter Discount

$160 You're in business

If needed, Add Terminator Tuning Stand: $149 less discount

You can always add more, which you will once you get the bug
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
the 700 included guides, stones, files, scrapers, the 2 brushes, a few waxes, side planer, vise, ptex, iron, safety equipment, and a few other little things. I did not think it was worth $300+ for a tuning bench, so I just plan to make my own (2'x8' 3/4" plywood attached to wall with L brackets, and a ski rack behind it) and attach it to a wall (I do not go on a trips longer than a weekend, so I am not too worried about portability).

Do I need a scraper sharpener and respirator?

How many files/stones do I need? The kit dmt stones seem to be a pretty good deal. If I get that, do I need anything else, or do I still need a file?
post #18 of 28
Files:
Bastard file
Second Cut (fine)

Stones:
Fine
Course
Gummi Stone - if you hit things

Brush:
Brass
Nylon or horsehair

Guides:
1 of your choice
Base Bevel
Sidewall planer (or a pocket knife and steady hand)

Wax:
CH (base and 2 temps - or multipack)
Do not buy a respirator
Do not buy HF wax - unless you're Bode... and even he might think HF was a waste of money...

Iron:
eh - whatever

Bench:
Got saw horses and a 2x6 and some clamps?
Mom's dining-room table?

Vise:
Buy one

Scraper:
buy a few - find someone with a jointer to sharpen them (30ish seconds)
[for a small fee I will send you a lifetime supply]

Later

GREG
post #19 of 28
Back to the wax....

If you're not racing, Hertel Super Hot Sauce is relatively cheap and will be all that you'll need for all but the warmest, wettest conditions. It's great stuff! You can order online at www.hertelskiwax.com
post #20 of 28
Use an all-temp and save some money.
post #21 of 28
I have been happy with Super Hot Sauce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volklgirl View Post
Back to the wax....

If you're not racing, Hertel Super Hot Sauce is relatively cheap and will be all that you'll need for all but the warmest, wettest conditions. It's great stuff! You can order online at www.hertelskiwax.com
post #22 of 28
I have also been very happy with the super hot sauce. I use the St. Louis brick. It's $19 shipped to your door. 1 to 1 1/2 bricks will last me the whole season and I usually wax 3-4 pairs a week. I use Holmenkol universal warm (tognar.com $40/1.5 kg) for cleaning and storage. I have also mixed the two together in the spring wilth excellent results.
post #23 of 28

Here's another look at tuning...

...how tos and the gear I use...

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles...ning-Part2.pdf
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesgig View Post
I am a very aggressive.......99.5% of the time I am on man-made snow/ice.......ski for 4-6hrs per day, 5-7 days per week during a 3 month season.........so I can afford/have the time to tune weekly.....
jamesgig, with that style of skiing for that amount of time on that type of snow I'd recommend giving your side edge angle a quick touch-up every evening with a diamond stone (Moonflex are the best) & guide. A daily touch-up minimises the amount of material removed compared to having to do a more severe file/polish on a weekly basis with the benefit that your edges will be tiptop at the start of each day for those icey conditions. After a bit of practice it'll only take a few minutes to do - & maybe save another wipe-out .

You can then wax as necessary although the more often the better for consistent performance & base protection. I sell Dominator Wax in the UK & their Zoom hydro universal wax (available with or without graphite) is a great product with a wide operating range & is very economical when bought in 400g bricks. Dominator's Zoom Base Renew wax is also great as an occasional base prep/base layer to really load up the base before applying the uni wax for when you've a bit of extra time to spare or especially after a grind.

The graphite version seems to perform better & faster on the UK's indooor slopes that utilise man-made snow, although it does tend to slightly discolour non black ski bases.

As other's have said, the Zardoz Notwax teflon overaly is a great & cheap overlay for moist snow or if you just haven't
time to wax.

Check out: http://www.dominatorwax.com & http://www.zardoznotwax.com
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Are the moonflex diamond stones worth the double cost? I am trying to keep the price "reasonable" since I have to get my parents to pay for it, but if there would be a noticable improvement, I may be able to get them.
post #26 of 28
I use SVST diamond files, and they are better than Moonstone .

I don't know what the cost comparison is, but I don't think you have to pay extraordinary prices to get something that will work well. I wouldn't get too hung up on name brands on diamond sharpening stones or files.
post #27 of 28
Jamesgig (or anyone else) if you contact me directly, we can work out an apprpriate package deal to get you whatever combinations of tools, waxes, etc and caliber you'd like. Discussing by phone is probably best. We are also able to consider group buyer packages and free shipping options.

The aforementioned tuning package is a very good option, which you can always add to and upgrade, especially if you are new to tuning and don't want to go overboard initially. Lot of the choices come down to personal preferences after gaining some experience, relative to where you are, conditions, and skill, and of course economics, but remember:

"Buying a nice tool may hurt a little when you first buy it, but a cheap tool hurts every time you use it."

Good luck and glad you are getting going on keeping your gear in top form.
post #28 of 28
go to town on the reliable racing kits. The Racer kit (their best) with a vise (top quality Swix 3-point) runs $350, and its got:

a snazzy box
swix side guide (you choose the angle, I recommend 3 for your aggressive style)
bastard file
Coarse and Fine DMT 4" Diamonds
Gummi
Metal Scraper
Bunch of black&white ptex sticks
brake retainers
brass brush
nylon brush
Swix Iron
COMPLETE CH WAX KIT (4-10) <--your wax solution right there
True-bar
Plexi Scraper
Base Guide
File Card <--people overlook this, but it keeps my files & stones shiney for 3 years and counting
Clamp
Gloves
Sidewall Skyver
Ski straps
Swix Wax Manual (its a catalogue, don't let them fool you)
Swix 3-Point Vise

pretty much all you need, you can fill in the holes in the brush department pretty easily
http://reliableracing.com/detail.cfm...&category=2400
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