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Scary binding adjustment technique

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I was talking the other day to a fellow-skier friend of mine. I asked him if he had his bindings checked yet for the upcoming season, and he said he self-checks his bindings by clicking in in his living room. When I asked him how he does that, he said he clicks in and just twists his foot. If it hurts his knee to twist out, then he loosens the DIN and tries again. : He thinks his DIN is set to 2.

His rationale is that he doesn't want to wreck his knee or break a leg, so he keeps them super loose. I told him I was pretty sure that there was no correlation between low DIN settings and lack of leg injuries, but he didn't believe me and maintained that you can ski with very low DIN settings if you ski with correct technique.

He only returned to skiing last season, and apparently hasn't had a problem with pre-release. I guess it works for him, but my knees hurt just hearing that particular binding adjustment technique. He's skiing a two-or-three year old pair of Volkl's. Not sure what kind of bindings are on them, but he said he mounted them without having to drill anything. Has anybody come across a similair story? I'll admit I'm not very knowledgeable about how bindings work, but this sounds like an injury waiting to happen. Should I tell him to get his bindings checked for real, or is his method reasonably safe?
post #2 of 17
I hope your friend doesn't ski faster than he can run.
post #3 of 17
Go way to end a ski season before it starts.
post #4 of 17
Welcome to 1977.
post #5 of 17
Well, I mounted my Tyrolia FF14 bindings on the Head Supershape skis. The skis came with a Tyrolia CP13 carving plate and therefore everything is pre-drilled. Of course you need to have some idea of how the bindings are put together and where heel and toe piece must be placed to have the boot aligned where you want them. Too many times I saw shop idiots set up bindings incorrectly.

Besides I have the same setup on my old Elan HCX skis where I have an older version of the Tyrolia CP 13 plate and FF11 binding.

Mind you I am still taking them to the shop to have them check the bindings and adjust them. But frankly, all my skis are at DIN 7.5 and that is exactly where they will stay.
post #6 of 17
Many people can twist their foot out of a binding when its set at 10 or higher without a whole lot of effort. This tells you absolutely nothing about the binding's release abilities other than the fact that if you try to twist out you can.
post #7 of 17
With a DIN of 2, he could save money by using $30 kids bindings:
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618 View Post
Many people can twist their foot out of a binding when its set at 10 or higher without a whole lot of effort. This tells you absolutely nothing about the binding's release abilities other than the fact that if you try to twist out you can.
Ditto on that.

I don't know how many people remember this, but it actually used to be a RECOMMENDED way to set bindings for an individual skier.

To twist out of the toe you just edge the ski slightly, put your weight on the ball of your foot, and twist inward.

To do the heel, you stand with one ski off and one on. You place the foot with the ski just slightly ahead of the one without, then step forward with the non-ski foot (normal walking motion) and drive the toe of the ski foot straight down. it works like a charm.

I do both of these fairly often during the ski season just to make sure my bindings seem to be working properly.

And just by way of disclaimer, I'm not suggesting anyone else try this method. I'm just saying it's a totally valid way of setting bindings and it does work.
post #9 of 17
Bob's right. Did it myself growing up, still useful to make sure everything's moving smoothly. Doubt that it relates much to actual forces acting on joints during a fall, though, so I still depend on charts and personal experience for DIN's.
post #10 of 17
I still do it. Have done it forever. I remember when the release value was based on bone size. YIKES! I think that is Tyrolia "1,2,3"'s from the middish 60's. Ok so I am old.. 51.. but can still leg press 400 lbs HAHA. I Will always adjust bindings this way. Needles to say I am not in the business. I Have showed countless others how to do it. Posted about it enough. I don't have pre-releases.Can't afford any.Neither do those that I have shown how to do it. I am literally in disbelief that some people can keep their skis on with such low dins. I have told and lectured some people that even with my experience their skis WILL come off pre-release. And I have been wrong. Others can be cranked up to 11 and HOW do these inexperienced skiers get these things to fly off pre-release???
Almost all skiers simply do not know how to properly test this way.You simply must test in a manner that as close as possible simulates real load on the joints.It is not safe or smart to do/try this if you don't know what you are doing.Yes..people have been hurt trying it. What a way to get hurt..great story eh..dicking around with the release on your bindings.
I have tested countless bindings with torque wrenches,tell tale torque wrenches,looked at the pressure/angle of the bindings during various stages of the release phase.Either you know about anti-shock/defeating it/return/shock loadings or you don't. Knowledge of different bindings and their feel is very important too.
When these types of test methods have been tried..it has been found that inexperienced skiers can/have somehow/inappropriate movements..usually shock load a binding..so they are out of it.WAAY above a safe limit.While some racers simply could not get out without fear of injury.
Binding "feel" is really the key here. Conventional testing is an "average load/release". Some bindings I feel better in than others.Some at a din of 6 I feel are NEVER going to come off. They seem to require shock loadings that are gonna toast me before they come off. Other bindings..feel that at 10 they feel syrupy and are gonna fly off my feet on the chairlift.A quick observation of the force on a binding and the amount of displacement towards release verifies this. You don't want too constant..or too abrupt a release curve..as it relates to force..binding release angle. While newer bindings are better...much more consistent in this manner..there are still no standards in this area. I always find it fascinating when I have tested bindings..and you are at x torque and x release angle how some bindings require WAAY more torque..either slow or fast to release more.While others.."yer in or yer out".Ok bad remark..I am not gonna go there. You breathe and you're out.

HAHA..does help to cut a few up to really see how this occurs.

A few facts: A few years ago ski resorts that had over a million skier days per season.Over 50% of ALL injuries at the resort occured for one reason.Leg injuries.Caused when the binding did not release.Of course there are many situations that bindings work poorly..or don't work at all.
NO stats are (or were a year or two ago) kept for ski injuries that occur because of pre-releases.Yes of course they cause injuries..death.

Rant over.
Maybe. HAHA
post #11 of 17
It is always an interesting and varied discussion with regards to binding pre-release issues, testing methods, safety and performance. Of course these discussions have assumed traditional binding engineering with skiing generally in a forward alignment and direction. I’m anxiously waiting for the additional complexity of discussion posts when binding engineering better addresses free skiing backward landings and we wonder what our DIN should be at and how accurate are our settings.

Nevertheless, many of us do not have a shop handy that carries a Huber DMG 90 or equivalent to periodically test the torque release range of our bindings to that prescribed by DIN charts. No excuse, but we do find that each of us employs our own personal field “feel” test that has worked for us over the years as described in prior posts.

Since I’m not able to accurately duplicate a lateral twisting force equal both inside and outside let alone left leg and right leg or best visualize the binding travel while twisting, I employ the mallet. Yes, I offer that the old rubber mallet method in the garage maybe more accurate than a twist and shout in your living room. With skis appropriately clamped and boots set, a firm strike, with consistent and repeatable force, at boot points that best mimic release directions, provides me a better visual of elasticity, travel and release characteristics. Ok, Ok… so perhaps I should hit my head with said mallet for not getting to a qualified shop to check my equipment properly, but I’ve been lucky so far…:
post #12 of 17
Any shop without a Wintersteiger tester or the equivalent doesn't take themselves seriously enough to deserve business anyway.
post #13 of 17
I've side-twisted out of a S916 set to a 14 din.......am I some sort of He-man?
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
.......am I some sort of He-man?
HS...not sure about He-man status, but boy, at that setting that twist out would have left my toes pointed in one direction and my body the other way...Got Milk?
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
HS...not sure about He-man status, but boy, at that setting that twist out would have left my toes pointed in one direction and my body the other way...Got Milk?
Once again: the ability to twist out of a binding has little to do with its release settings, no matter what they are.
post #16 of 17

I have a tiny DIN

I skied with a patroller a few years ago that due to numerous knee operations had to have an insanely low DIN setting.

I learned an important thing from him. He could ski very very well despite his low setting. he could pop right out of his ski at the lift with no effort at all, yet he skied somewhat fast and very fluid.

Since then I realized that skiing is more about being fluid and not so much forcing things to happen, because he made it look great and used no force at all.

I wouldn't reccomend setting your DIN that low as tree's and rocks always win, and that binding better hold during that OH $H(t moment.

Oh and I did save money by using a Jr. Binding (Look P10 Jr.) and a Look P10 Adult, as my DIN is pretty low when properly set and a long life of skiing is far more important to me than an ego by having race bindings for freeskiing.
post #17 of 17

din or forward pressure?

could some of you experts discuss forward pressure. i think it may have some bearing on the issue. i was once told that my din was at 6, but there was too much forward pressure and it would not release properly. and how do you set and test it?
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