EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Beginners Lesson, WELL (video)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Beginners Lesson, WELL (video) - Page 3

post #61 of 75
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
My only issue with the "progression" is that it teaches starting turns with a step to the outside foot. I use something like this as a fallback when I can't convince students they'll get better turns if they can use the new inside foot to trigger them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Can you explain this? How do you trigger the turn with your new inside foot?
I start a left turn (wedge or not) by beginning to relax my left foot and leg so that that ski starts to flatten and my progress starts to veer to the left. All my progress, including my center of mass, moves left as the process continues.

My favorite Bob Barnesism: Nothing goes right when I turn left.
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Good post by both you and RicB. Im not saying it is wrong to use a lot of extentin and flexion but I do it from my waist down. Im trying to keep my head and upper body as stationary as I can. This is the way I have been coached and it works for me and lots of other skiers as well. Style is individual and I have fellow ski instructors at our school that rise their body before turning and flex through out the turn. IMO that is a little bit old fashion in a negative way since it is not nesessary. We should be doing it the other way arround. Stand tall when load is heavy and flex through transaction when we have almost no pressure on our skis. Think modern carving.
I think of extension and flexion as happening in the ankles knees and hips, with these joints working together in a coordinaterd integration to maintain balance as they work throughout the range of motion as needed for other skills as well. This will affect the upper body and should affect it in a balanced way. Leave out the hips by keeping the upper body staticly still and you end up with the movements not being equal (too much knee)and the range of motion is then inhibited, or worse, you end up in the backseat.

I'm not sure of your concern here about old fashion when it comes to beginner and low level skiers. Rate and timing do need to be taught, as in how fast and when in the turn, but this isn't so hard if you work it in with things like breathing or counting. Heck, for that matter, I'll take old fashion over static, because then we have some movement to work with. Later, RicB.
post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
We are sort of getting off topic more and more with these posts and I appologize for being partly to blame for that. If you have more questions about angulation perhaps you can start another thread Ghost!

Re-read my last post for clues about how angulation will increase your edging capabilities, without any regard to the banking balance over your outside ski.
I was just thinking the same thing. Stay tuned.

Sorry for the highjack tdk6.
post #64 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
My only issue with the "progression" is that it teaches starting turns with a step to the outside foot. I use something like this as a fallback when I can't convince students they'll get better turns if they can use the new inside foot to trigger them.

I start a left turn (wedge or not) by beginning to relax my left foot and leg so that that ski starts to flatten and my progress starts to veer to the left. All my progress, including my center of mass, moves left as the process continues.

My favorite Bob Barnesism: Nothing goes right when I turn left.
I do not quite understand how you can start a left turn by relaxing your left foot! If you traverse in parallell after a right turn you are on your left foot BTE and on your right foot LTE. If you from this position flex and flatten out your left foot ski your knees will drift apart and more weight will be added to your right foot LTE which is a bad thing because most likely you will fall towards the hill (very common reason WC skiers fall). If you dont fall, at least due to ski sidecut your right foot ski LTE will stear your ski further to the right which in this case is uphill and in the wrong direction since you want to turn left.

IMO your first move should be to somehow get your right foot rolled over from its LTE to its BTE. This is what is happening with the stem. In wedge position this is not nesessary since its allredy on its BTE. Once you have taken the stem step up with your right foot and placed it on its BTE you flex your old outside ski, left ski in this case, relese its BTE and move it parallell to your new outside ski on its LTE. In pure parallell turing you simultaniusly flex your left ski, part of unweighting and move your hipps in that direction rolling both of your skis over to their new edges at the same time. Maybe this is what you are also doing but you dont mention that both skis work simultaniously.

In my personal parallell skiing and at higher ski school level I have moved towards a more two footed stance where I try to trigger my turns by first incresing and then reducing by unweighting pressure on both skis at the same time. For skiing traditional powder and natural moguls this technique comes in handy and it works well. In powder we call it pumping with our leggs. In moguls its more flexing and extending and absorbing bumps. This technique does not work that well if you have a very wide stance.

It would be interesting to se you guys tape your turns this winter and put them up for comparisson. We could make a list of moves that has to be performed and then we could compare the different styles. This should be an easy task for everyone with todays technology. I gotta discuss this with the moderators. At the same time we need to tape total beginners for the same purpose in order to get a ref point at how beginners actually ski and best of all, how they learn.
post #65 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
I think of extension and flexion as happening in the ankles knees and hips, with these joints working together in a coordinaterd integration to maintain balance as they work throughout the range of motion as needed for other skills as well. This will affect the upper body and should affect it in a balanced way. Leave out the hips by keeping the upper body staticly still and you end up with the movements not being equal (too much knee)and the range of motion is then inhibited, or worse, you end up in the backseat.

I'm not sure of your concern here about old fashion when it comes to beginner and low level skiers. Rate and timing do need to be taught, as in how fast and when in the turn, but this isn't so hard if you work it in with things like breathing or counting. Heck, for that matter, I'll take old fashion over static, because then we have some movement to work with. Later, RicB.
I like your attitude.... rather take old fashion over static . Im also beeing flamed for skiing the old fashion way but I too take oldfashion in favor of nonfunctional.

So you basicly approve of the demo you would just like to see more up and down movement. Im not going to argue that since I intentionally skied static due to personal style but also to mimic a beginner making only the nesessary moves for that level of skiing.
post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I like your attitude.... rather take old fashion over static . Im also beeing flamed for skiing the old fashion way but I too take oldfashion in favor of nonfunctional.

So you basicly approve of the demo you would just like to see more up and down movement. Im not going to argue that since I intentionally skied static due to personal style but also to mimic a beginner making only the nesessary moves for that level of skiing.
Gosh you are going to put me on the spot aren't you? Reread my first post. I would refine and increase in a smooth continuos way the extension and flexion, and I would also add in a better release of the old outside ski. This would allow the matching in your stem christies to be more flowing and natural and would lead to a paralle turnl without that slight but noticable pop and lifting of the inside ski to transfer pressure.

Working our skis without momentum brings many things that we not notice in faster skiing. When I demo I wnat to show the very best possible blending for the student at their stage of developement. I guess I never equated effective blending with too much info. You can get their with some very simple key focuses. Fundamentals like an effective release and extension and flexion don't need to be complicated. Both of these will relax the skier and reinforce positive movements and control at any level, they just get more refined as we advance and get better. IMHO.

Not trying to be harsh, but I work on these in my demos all the time. I take every demo as an opportunity to refine and show obvious good effective skiing. Not in a way that is out of reach to the student, but as something attainable for a given student and yet stay true to good fundamentals. Later, RicB.
post #67 of 75
Ok I'll chime in one more time here. This is a great thread impressive in everyone playing so nice on such an important topic. Well done by all.

Tom I can clearly see what folks are describing here and RicB comments in particular are crystal clear as I have already stated. I really like the work you do with the camera and I can only think of a tip I was given early in my teaching career by a PSIA examiner who shall go nameless. Watching that guy ski was like watching a river flow....including the demos.

I asked him on the chair up how he did it. He replied that the key to a good demo is to understand what centerline is about....it is about progressions that nearly every skier shall pass through on their way to expert skiing. As a result the successful demo is not really a demo. It is skiing. You have to understand the dynamics of the movements to be demonstrated, the intent of the demonstration and just ski it. Further the demo shall reveal technical weaknesses in the demonstrators skiing which require correction.

It thus really isn't a demo....it's just good skiing. Only after digesting those comments was I really able to dial in(and actually enjoy doing )my demos. Dialing in the demos also enabled me to discover any stance, balance issues that were holding back my skiing and apply the corrections. It became a very rewarding pathway to discovery.

FWIW

BTW I used to be known as "demo man" A very long time ago my friend.....

post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I do not quite understand how you can start a left turn by relaxing your left foot!
Read Lito's book. If a skier doesn't relax the old outside leg, they will stem cristie their whole life or spend much effort battling against stemming the new outside ski.

Quote:
If you from this position flex and flatten out your left foot ski your knees will drift apart and more weight will be added to your right foot LTE which is a bad thing because most likely you will fall towards the hill
You won't fall towards the hill because if you relax the downill leg AND stand on the uphill leg, and if you have any momentum at all, your CM will fall down the hill(down the fallline, not into the uphill side).


Quote:
If you dont fall, at least due to ski sidecut your right foot ski LTE will stear your ski further to the right which in this case is uphill and in the wrong direction since you want to turn left.
If your CM is toppling across your skis to the downhill side, then you will be riding on the LTE of your uphill side for only a split second. Before you know it you'll be riding on the BTE of that ski. There is no need to rush getting on that BTE. Rushing to get on the BTE is what creates a stemming habit that is hard to break.

Also, if you do pre-turn up into the hill for a fraction of a second it will only help that much more to topple your CM down the hill.


Quote:
IMO your first move should be to somehow get your right foot rolled over from its LTE to its BTE. This is what is happening with the stem.
Indeed, that is what the stem does. Unfortunately that also creates a situation where that skier will be stemming for years longer than they need to by learning this move of getting on the BTE first. They will rush turns, push out to skid, and stem like crazy. You'll even spot high level skiers stemming in the bumps occasionally when the going gets tough.

The age-old stem cristie turn is a controversial technique these days. It used to be part of the standard progression for years, but many people don't teach it anymore, as anything other than an emergency defense move if a skier suddenly finds themselve in a scary situation. And some teachers don't even teach it for that. Unfortunately the stem cristie instills bad habits which are hard to break..namely the gut instinct to get on that BTE too early and too fast without other things happening first.

Quote:
In pure parallell turing you simultaniusly flex your left ski, part of unweighting and move your hipps in that direction rolling both of your skis over to their new edges at the same time. Maybe this is what you are also doing but you dont mention that both skis work simultaniously.
You flex your downhill leg to release it and stand on your uphill leg to engage it..simultaneously.

Me personally, I'm not a big supporter of the whole 'roll your ankles to turn" philosophy. I've tried that many times to get students to feel rollerblade turn carves and learn what the skiis can do etc. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't but I don't feel it helps them learn how to make a good turn. I don't feel that you have to think much about rolling your ankles as a fundamental basis of turning. Yes, its an element to think about.

If you do the weight transfer mentioned before, then your CM will move across your path and your ankles will roll over almost by themselves. I feel that the proper transfer of weight and movement of the CM is so much more critical to get right.

This is why, even at wedge turn levels, everything done should be guiding them down that path. As Rick noted about seeing a bit more release from the old outside ski. Sooner or later they will need to learn to do that. The sooner the better that they start to blend in extension/flexion and weight transfer concepts.

I'll also add that every time I'm asked to demo wedge turns my mind is working like crazy about how I can do them in such a way as to guide a skier towards performance parallel carving. I get your point about wanting to do a demo that the skier is capable of performing. Of course. But at the same time, if you do it in such a refined way that there is some extension/flexion, some release of the old outside ski, some counter, etc.. The truth is you won't TALK about any of those things to beginning students. You'll tell them the basics of how to make a wedge turn and let them follow you. And refine it as you go along. But your demos should always be the "better" way. Some of them will pick on on those cues. If you perform it only the way you think they need to do it exactly, then they will lock into their head that being static is the proper way, etc.. If you demo it the more dynamic way, many of them will perform it statically anyway and you should just give them big thumbs up..the dynamics will come with time as you slowly help them refine it. But IMHO, your demos should always be showing them the ideal unles you are specifically trying to exagerate a particular thing. I doubt anyone means to exagerate skiing like a robot unless they are trying to teach students how NOT to ski. Later on, after they have mastered making static wedge turns even though you demo'd them perfectly with a bit of extension and flexion, you can start to talk with them about extension and flexion and use more exaggerated extension and flexion movements to help the light bulb go on in their heads. But a little bit of it should always have been there and many students will simply pick up on that just by watching you the first time.
post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I do not quite understand how you can start a left turn by relaxing your left foot! If you traverse in parallell after a right turn you are on your left foot BTE and on your right foot LTE. If you from this position flex and flatten out your left foot ski your knees will drift apart and more weight will be added to your right foot LTE which is a bad thing because most likely you will fall towards the hill (very common reason WC skiers fall).

You need to get out of all that powder and moguls and spend some time on really gradual terrain, Tom! On today's equipment, if you are standing on your left BTE and start to flatten that ski, if you don't resist, your center of mass will begin to move somewhat left. Do this gradually, and the left ski will slide a little left, forming a wedge while the right ski rolls onto its BTE. It happens. It's the beginning of a Wedge Christie.


IMO your first move should be to somehow get your right foot rolled over from its LTE to its BTE. Again, this will occur if you're flattening the left ski. You do not need to step/slide the right ski out to form a wedge. This would be a movement uphill, when your goal is to go downhill.

In pure parallell turing you simultaniusly flex your left ski, part of unweighting and move your hipps in that direction rolling both of your skis over to their new edges at the same time. Maybe this is what you are also doing but you dont mention that both skis work simultaniously. No "unweighting" required on today's gear.

In my personal parallell skiing and at higher ski school level I have moved towards a more two footed stance where I try to trigger my turns by first incresing and then reducing by unweighting pressure on both skis at the same time. This is wasted energy, flexing and unweighting. A two-footed stance is wonderful, modern, appropriate for the equipment available today. The "old-fashioned" effort to unweight/reweight/manipulate the skis in between, is more work than the gear requires.

For skiing traditional powder and natural moguls this technique comes in handy and it works well. In powder we call it pumping with our leggs. In moguls its more flexing and extending and absorbing bumps. This technique does not work that well if you have a very wide stance. OK, your "pumping" may be necessary for powder and flex/extend definitely is a part of mogul skiing, but your demo was for the transition between the wedge turner to beginning paralleler, not mogul junkie.

It would be interesting to se you guys tape your turns this winter and put them up for comparisson. We could make a list of moves that has to be performed and then we could compare the different styles. This should be an easy task for everyone with todays technology. I gotta discuss this with the moderators. At the same time we need to tape total beginners for the same purpose in order to get a ref point at how beginners actually ski and best of all, how they learn.
Not all of us have taping available, although it is becoming more so.
post #70 of 75
Thread Starter 
Kneale Brownson, RicB, borntoski and others, thanks for your posts and input here. Just as a ref, I’m not claiming that I can do a perfect demo or that this progression from the wedge to parallel is performed with all the correct movements. It was made in an instance and without too much thought and planning. I’m sure lots of teachers could do it better. Problem is that we don’t have many videos of experts performing these drills so we kind of are stuck with what we have right here. I also don’t spend most of my time in powder and moguls, our conditions here are mostly eastern us with small hills and cold icy conditions and man made snow. Most of my time I spend with students on very easy flat slopes.

You are commenting that I do a lot of unnecessary movements such as unweighting. In my opinion traditional extending and flexing is unnecessary so I agree with you perfectly that we should not do stuff that we don’t have to, due to modern equipment for instance. On a side note, your and many fellow epic members way of flexing the old outside leg is probably the same move as I do. Only I call it unweighting. What I don’t like and don’t understand is why you flatten out the old outside ski because that causes your knees to drift apart. My take on this is that you actually don’t flatten your old outside ski, you flatten both skis simultaneously. As you flex the old outside ski leg you instantly load the new outside ski, your cm is offset down the hill into the new turn and your skis flatten, get on their new edges and you turn. This is what I do anyway. The release of the inside ski doesn’t show since I have been drilled in Austria not to lift the old outside ski off the snow. We used to do that before. Now we are supposed to maintain snow contact with both skis and stand more evenly on both.

We are now talking about parallel skiing. The new short skis make it so easy to turn parallel that the stem phase really can be skipped. Like already pointed out, only to be used in case student cannot jump straight from wedge to parallel or go for parallel direct (I can live with that statement). What the stem actually does is first, offsetting your cm to your balanced stance much more than if you have your skis parallel and close. Secondly it provides you automatically with a skidding BTE ski. This way you don’t have to rotate your hips or do some other funky move to get into skidding (drifting).

IMO the most important thing I find in skiing is that you have your hips in a favorable position. Lots of up and down movement in form of extending and flexing messes that picture up. The usual way even good skiers get their skis skidding into a new turn is by throwing their hips towards the outside, also called hip rotation. This again promotes banking and upper body rotation causing the outside ski to lose its grip. We are all trying to do the same, teach students to ski, but we are using different methods. RicB calls for a catlike smooth perfect demo including as many possible skills and moves involved in upper level skiing while I try to bring the demo as close to the student as possible with only the most important moves present for that level (note that I do not intentionally teach anything that will harm the student in the future). On top of that I’m not a catlike mover, I’m more like an aging dog .
post #71 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Now we are supposed to maintain snow contact with both skis and stand more evenly on both.
That is a highly debated topic.
post #72 of 75

Teaching demo's

Hi Tom,

Great thread!

In the wedge turns, you used some rotary skills and steered the inside ski, particularly on your turns to the right. During the next two turns you stepped/stemmed your new outside ski at initiation and then unweighted the inside ski and slid it into a parallel orientation. I believe this is the result of the inside ski being "in the way", still on the inside edge. You didn't step in your parallel turns. Why add something that you will have to take away later if it can be avoided?

A reason we utilize extension at initiation is to use directional/diagonol movements (moving our hips toward the apex of the upcoming turn). This movement allows the inside ski to be flattened and steered in the wedge christy zone. You could try to allow your hips to follow the pole swing by lengthening your new outside leg. These movements will be the same throughout the course of your students lesson's. You will only have to ask your student to pick up the intensity as their competency increases and make their directional movements complement the desired turn shape.
post #73 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortturns View Post
Hi Tom,

Great thread!

In the wedge turns, you used some rotary skills and steered the inside ski, particularly on your turns to the right. During the next two turns you stepped/stemmed your new outside ski at initiation and then unweighted the inside ski and slid it into a parallel orientation. I believe this is the result of the inside ski being "in the way", still on the inside edge. You didn't step in your parallel turns. Why add something that you will have to take away later if it can be avoided?

A reason we utilize extension at initiation is to use directional/diagonol movements (moving our hips toward the apex of the upcoming turn). This movement allows the inside ski to be flattened and steered in the wedge christy zone. You could try to allow your hips to follow the pole swing by lengthening your new outside leg. These movements will be the same throughout the course of your students lesson's. You will only have to ask your student to pick up the intensity as their competency increases and make their directional movements complement the desired turn shape.
Shortturns, thanks for posting and glad you like the thread. I have some questions for you and some comments to your statements. Your observations are spot on and clear but can you explain what kind of rotary movement you see in the wedged turns? Im trying to keep my hips and leggs as stationary as possible and only lean, slightly countered towards the outside with my upper body.
Hip rotation: hips should remain centered but are in fact offset to the inside in ref to the rest of the body. Kind of counter rotated since hip rotation movement to the outside of the turn.
Upper body rotation: Im trying to counter through out the turn but at the very end I may be a bit square stanced since I end up in a traverse.

I dont think that the stem turn is something we use "only" as a stepping stone while we are learning to ski parallel. I think that the stem turn is very useful in many situations especially when student is not jet very confident out on the mountain. Comes a time when the student is resorting to the stem when he in fact should turn parallel but on every skill level we have tendency to resort to easier ways of doing moves due to lack of gutts or plain old lazieness.

Your suggestion that our hips should follow the pole swing is something I would not reccomend. I want our pole plant to be an independent move isolated from the rest of our body movements. Think of martial arts, boxing or tennis where we need to be able to swing arms and and sometimes leggs independent of other body parts, in harmony but as own independent movements.
post #74 of 75

Beginner lesson

Tom,

During your wedge turns your inside leg rotates slightly in the direction of your turn, especially for your turns to the right. Observe the orientation of your ski tips to each other.

Your stem turn is part of your progression. I teach a stem to a student that cannot accomplish a wedge christy. I might suggest a stem as an exercise for situational/terrain teaching; powder or retraction extension turns. Or for students who need to escape an uplayable lie: facing/ up against the trees, or a drop off.

We will have to agree to disagree on the pole swing. I teach the pole swing for timing, intensity, directional/diagonol movement of my body and the resulting turn shape. I want my hips to move in the direction of my turn and the inside of my turn, and my pole swing accurately leads the way for the desired turn shape.
post #75 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortturns View Post
I teach the pole swing for timing, intensity, directional/diagonol movement of my body and the resulting turn shape. I want my hips to move in the direction of my turn and the inside of my turn, and my pole swing accurately leads the way for the desired turn shape.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Beginners Lesson, WELL (video)