or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › pole plant not used anymore?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

pole plant not used anymore? - Page 2

post #31 of 63
Even in SL, you plant for rythm. You don't need to plant, but it helps in regulating your turn initation and keeping you on on track.
post #32 of 63

Pole plant as a turn signal

If you ski on crowded slopes slower than adolescents behind you, a pole plant (along with rhythmic skiing) is also helpful in giving out of control skiers and boarders behind you an extra clue about where you are headed next. (Out of control defined as (A) insufficiently skilled for the speed and crowd to consistently avoid collision, (B) the state a significant portion of the 12-17 year old males are exhibiting in on a blue run on a crowded day.) (Sorry, teenaged males, but I was one once, and there is, it turns out, a reason that teenage male drivers are classified by auto insurers in the rate structure just one to the left of the space shuttle...)

Being predictable is helpful in avoiding being hit, and when the pole touch or plant is used consistently, it effectively acts as a turn signal for an overtaking skier or boarder behind you who is paying attention.
post #33 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfdean View Post
Check out this slow motion video of three top WC athletes in slow motion extreme slalom skiing and see how brief and transitory the pole plant/double pole plant/pole touch really is, despite huge lateral displacement of lower body in transition and dramatic pivot before edge set of the new turn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGQ9egMTW9s

this video clearly shows planting, not touching. Check out how much the pole deflects, indicating that a bit of force is being loaded into the pole. That it happens quicly is a function of how short slalom sets are, not an indication that the move is simply for rhythm motion where the pole itself is superfluous.
post #34 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyboy View Post
this video clearly shows planting, not touching. Check out how much the pole deflects, indicating that a bit of force is being loaded into the pole. That it happens quicly is a function of how short slalom sets are, not an indication that the move is simply for rhythm motion where the pole itself is superfluous.
There are racing techniques that don't often apply to recreational skiing. How many times have you seen someone free skiing while making double pole plants (unless they doing drills)?
post #35 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
There are racing techniques that don't often apply to recreational skiing. How many times have you seen someone free skiing while making double pole plants (unless they doing drills)?
This is not one of them. More skiers should use double pole plants when appropriate. They are a great recentering tool! Can be very useful on steeps!
post #36 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
There are racing techniques that don't often apply to recreational skiing. How many times have you seen someone free skiing while making double pole plants (unless they doing drills)?
depends on how aggresivly one skis recreationaly.
post #37 of 63
I was also watching the Bode Miller video:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=47022

He doesn't actually plant (that is, contact the snow) so much, but the swinging/reaching movement appeared to be an important aspect of his timing. I'm going to have this in my head for the ESA/Stowe event next month.
post #38 of 63
I thought this article at YCS.com might add some fodder for this discussion

The Pole Plant in Modern Technique
post #39 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusFire View Post
I was also watching the Bode Miller video:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=47022

He doesn't actually plant (that is, contact the snow) so much, but the swinging/reaching movement appeared to be an important aspect of his timing. I'm going to have this in my head for the ESA/Stowe event next month.
did you not watch the Pole Plant segment?

what do expect a pole plant to look like? Pushing your pole into the snow for minutes at a time? Are you getting hung up on the word "Plant" ?"Those are pole plants bode is using.
post #40 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
I thought this article at YCS.com might add some fodder for this discussion

The Pole Plant in Modern Technique
Gary, I just happen to run across and read the same article. I thought it was right on!
post #41 of 63
Quote:
did you not watch the Pole Plant segment?
I thought that the link I posted took you to the carving segment. Maybe not. But in that segment, he does not really touch the snow very often.
post #42 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusFire View Post
I thought that the link I posted took you to the carving segment. Maybe not. But in that segment, he does not really touch the snow very often.
Did you watch the same carving segemnt i did.

Come on! dude, he plants every single turn in the carving segment except the little 2 sec. section demonstraing ankle flexion. Every other turn in the entire vidoe Bode plants his pole or poles!

Watch it again!
post #43 of 63
I guess you could have the right body position and aggressive stance without the pole plants, but if you use proper pole plants, the body position is ensured, unless your arms are 6 feet long.

Personally I'm not big on pole plants, but I never was; they weren't used much in the DH events I learned to ski from, and it hurts when you do it at too high a speed.
post #44 of 63
FYI, the author of the article on pole plants at www.youcanski.com is a former WC level coach, including head coach of the Canadian Women's ski team, Head coach of Russia, and an assistant coach of the Austrian men's team.

His 17 yrs of world cup coaching experience should make him an authority on this subject. Pretty much seals the deal for me.
post #45 of 63
I think that pole plants are important in modern technique, but not as important as they were in the old days when you used a hard blocking plant to initiate the turn from a forward lean. This is actually something that I have been working on a lot lately as I continue to struggle with the transition from the older longer skis. And it's not as easy as it looks.

Most people that I respect who have been looking at my skiing have identified arm position as something that I really need to work on. And pole plants are an important part of having the proper position. In modern technique you need to be relaxed, in a balanced stance, with your arms in front of your spine. Since you are getting most of the turning motion from your hips, thighs and knees, the pole plant actually turns into more of a pole touch. But the touch is important for keeping your arms in the right spot so that you can angulate effectively from the places you need to.

Getting this right has not been comfortable for me as I still tend to want to go to a forward lean and get out over the tips of my skis, forcing my arms back. What I am noticing is that this leads to problems with oversteer, rather than letting the skis carve smoothly in linked turns. Finally, if you do use a hard plant this again leads to the pole getting stuck in the snow and your arms moving behind your spine as your skis rush by, again putting you behind the eight ball in starting the next turn so that you have to over correct to link.

The video with Bode is really useful, you can see how well he angulates, almost getting his hand on the snow. The pole touches mark the turns and keep the arms in the right spot to achieve balance and the proper angulation, even if they are no longer helpful in initiating the turn.

Of course there are still situations where a hard plant is very useful, as others have noted, such as in bumps or on the steeps. It's hard to do a jump turn without a double pole plant. But as I am learning, the trick with modern linked technique is to be careful to not over do pole plants and try to do more of the work of turning the ski from the core.
post #46 of 63
Pole plant is a necessity and double pole-plant moreso. When racing, you rarely actually plant the pole like you would do on a mogul field, but you touch or brush: slalom can be different, and I've seen people forcefully plant in order to stop upper-body rotation that can creep up with the cross-block. This is a tacital element that has almost disapeared in modern recreational carving. The modern pole plant has less to do with countering rotationary movement and more to do with fore-aft balance and precise engagement of the edges at transition. Let me explain.

The pole touch is not only a cue, it is also a catalyst: if done properly, meaning that it will start at the waist and not at the shoulders (no hunching over), it will initiate the CM movement into the new turn. Pole-plants add smoothness and rythmn to one skiing not because it is the first element of a motor pattern, making it superfluous if you could replace it by a mental cue, but because it initiates it by the virtue of its effects on the body movements that are necessary to its execution. The CM starts to go downhill (diagonal) when you go reach for that touch: downweighting thus can be executed more readily and the transition (cross-under, cross-over) happens almost naturally. When I encounter people who have trouble projecting into the new turn (hugging the mountain, committment to the inside ski, etc.) I very often recommend pole plants.

The only problem that I see with the pole plant, is that it is still taught as a rythmic movement only, as a movement that is only there to "start the new turn". Many instructors view it as being the blinkers on a car and a lot of students don't use blinkers on the road... If it were presented as being part of the steering process, wich it is when it is not only comprised of a flick of the wrist but also of a projection of the CM into the new turn by the waist, I think that a lot of students would "get it". In fact, I have a vision of teaching pole plants without poles first, having a student think of hrowing a heavy ball or actually throwing a heavy ball (so that it's not only a shoulder movement) into the new turn and then trying with poles.
post #47 of 63
Its not that pole plants are no longer part of skiing but that they are no longer part of mainstream skiing or ski teaching. If you understand what they are and what they accomplish it becomes much easier to understand when and why they are used. Pole plants are a timing device, a signal to other parts of the body. A pole plant, as opposed to a pole touch or flick of the risk, is an interruption, an event with duration that signals an interruption in the flow of movement. The longer the duration of the interruption, the longer the duration of the associated event. For example,take a classic example of an instance where a distinct pole plant is employed, the hop turn on an extreme steep. Your skis are moving forward until you plant the pole. That signals a distinct edge set and the body's fluid movement down the hill is stopped and converted into a downward movement as the knees flex. This is followed by a rising motion as the legs extend and rotate down the hill. The pole may remain planted during all of this until the fullest leg extension is reached and the skis pass the fall line, ie untill your body is ready to resume it's descent to perhaps the other pole plant/edgeset in the opposing direction. A less pronounced pole plant or one of lesser duration would nontheless signal relative "stopping" movements in your flow down the hill. This can be appropriate in moguls where you have short abrupt terrain features where you want to interrupt your movement to accomplish a lot in a short period, like pivoting your skis and re-establishing your fore-aft balance on that tiny spot of real estate. Most of the time in skiing though you don't want your turning to be a series of short choppy movements, you want the turn to be smooth and fluid and you want the body to continue to move down the hill. this is why the pole touch is more apt to be employed. A smooth continuous gesture of the hand causes the pole to touch briefly and lightly at some point probably near the apex of the turn. It can be used to signal or direct the movement of your body toward that point. When the pole touch is felt the hand just continues moving over the point of touch and the body continues moving down the hill. Make the anticipated point of touch be far down the hill and way to the inside, for example, and you signal a large radius turn with significant angulation. The pole touch is what you intend to move toward, in other words. Move toward a point nearby and the event, asuming you can get the rest of your body to cooperate, will ocuur nearly immediately (probably a short turn). The pole touch or plant or whatever does not accomplish any of this by itself. You train your yourself to associate these with your movement patterns and in this way acquire a timing device that gives your hands and arms a role in the process.
post #48 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post
Its not that pole plants are no longer part of skiing but that they are no longer part of mainstream skiing or ski teaching. If you understand what they are and what they accomplish it becomes much easier to understand when and why they are used. Pole plants are a timing device, a signal to other parts of the body. A pole plant, as opposed to a pole touch or flick of the risk, is an interruption, an event with duration that signals an interruption in the flow of movement. The longer the duration of the interruption, the longer the duration of the associated event. For example,take a classic example of an instance where a distinct pole plant is employed, the hop turn on an extreme steep. Your skis are moving forward until you plant the pole. That signals a distinct edge set and the body's fluid movement down the hill is stopped and converted into a downward movement as the knees flex. This is followed by a rising motion as the legs extend and rotate down the hill. The pole may remain planted during all of this until the fullest leg extension is reached and the skis pass the fall line, ie untill your body is ready to resume it's descent to perhaps the other pole plant/edgeset in the opposing direction. A less pronounced pole plant or one of lesser duration would nontheless signal relative "stopping" movements in your flow down the hill. This can be appropriate in moguls where you have short abrupt terrain features where you want to interrupt your movement to accomplish a lot in a short period, like pivoting your skis and re-establishing your fore-aft balance on that tiny spot of real estate. Most of the time in skiing though you don't want your turning to be a series of short choppy movements, you want the turn to be smooth and fluid and you want the body to continue to move down the hill. this is why the pole touch is more apt to be employed. A smooth continuous gesture of the hand causes the pole to touch briefly and lightly at some point probably near the apex of the turn. It can be used to signal or direct the movement of your body toward that point. When the pole touch is felt the hand just continues moving over the point of touch and the body continues moving down the hill. Make the anticipated point of touch be far down the hill and way to the inside, for example, and you signal a large radius turn with significant angulation. The pole touch is what you intend to move toward, in other words. Move toward a point nearby and the event, asuming you can get the rest of your body to cooperate, will ocuur nearly immediately (probably a short turn). The pole touch or plant or whatever does not accomplish any of this by itself. You train your yourself to associate these with your movement patterns and in this way acquire a timing device that gives your hands and arms a role in the process.

post #49 of 63
Yiikes.
post #50 of 63
Pole planting is more than a timing device. Check out how much the poles deflect during a plant. A significant amount of force is being loaded into the pole, and that MUST effect the skiers dyanimics, you know, Newton's Second Law and all.
post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyboy View Post
Pole planting is more than a timing device. Check out how much the poles deflect during a plant. A significant amount of force is being loaded into the pole, and that MUST effect the skiers dyanimics, you know, Newton's Second Law and all.
yes, IF you are planting the pole that way. I think the point is, you certainly don't need to do that to make turns. So yes it will effect the skier in that case.
post #52 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
yes, IF you are planting the pole that way. I think the point is, you certainly don't need to do that to make turns. So yes it will effect the skier in that case.

That depends on what kind of turns you are making. you'll note in the slowmotion video posted above that salaom rarcing clearly requires these sort of turns. Any similarly aggressive scenario will require aggressive recentering, i.e., pole PLANTS, like the thread is titled. So, I guess if your idea of free skiing is cruising easy blues then pole planting is unnecessary.
post #53 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyboy View Post
That depends on what kind of turns you are making. you'll note in the slowmotion video posted above that salaom rarcing clearly requires these sort of turns. Any similarly aggressive scenario will require aggressive recentering, i.e., pole PLANTS, like the thread is titled. So, I guess if your idea of free skiing is cruising easy blues then pole planting is unnecessary.
Pole plants are rarely necessary for any type of recreational skiing be it steeps, bumps or trees.

That said, poles are a great comfort and aid to most skiers in most situations. Past the intermediate stage, the general tendency is that the more flawed your technique the more you will rely on poles throughout your skiing. I am not singling you out here monkeyboy you just happen to have the last word on this.

These threads can get very lengthy because for even very good skiers, poles can be a very personal thing even when not necessary to their good skiing.
post #54 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
These threads can get very lengthy because for even very good skiers, poles can be a very personal thing even when not necessary to their good skiing.
These threads get long because people like to post assertion rather than reasoned arguments.
post #55 of 63
OK. Here's another assertion then. And not a new one from me. Where I ski, I routinely see excellent skiers skiing without poles or with minimal use of poles outside of flats and lift lines. They use their edges well. They use their bases well. They ski fast groomers - and ski them fast. They ski off piste - pitches 35, 40, and more degrees. They ski tight trees - tight enough that pole planting is an invitation to getting hung up. Many take decent sized jumps. If everything some people here have claimed about how essential pole plants are were true, what I see every week would not be possible...
post #56 of 63
Perhaps we are confusing two points:

1) how often and when pole plants used

2) what role a proper pole plant plays when used
post #57 of 63
There are pole plants and there are pole plants. I saw a show on the tele the other day, Things that move. They were doing skiing. They covered the development of telemark, and alpine skis. Interesting was that they had a woman on old-style straight skis demonstrating that at that stage of development people had to get down low on the skis and many people ended up in the back seat, so the pole-plant was invented to get them forward. That pole plant is different than a blocking pole plant. Also if your are trying to turn as fast and tight as you can you will use whatever you can. I'm not so sure that means you would regularly use a technique, just because you can find it in a race photo. If you had a grappling hook on a chain you might use it too.
post #58 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I'm not so sure that means you would regularly use a technique, just because you can find it in a race photo. If you had a grappling hook on a chain you might use it too.
Personaly, I would use the technique that is most effective in a given situation, or at least the technique I believed was the most effective. However, adding a buch a artificial obstacles in the form of plactic sticks doesn't fundimantialy change the physics involved, so if it's an effective recentering tool in the gates...

I don't thinks that anyone here has been arguing that that role of the pole plant han't changed since the days of stright skis.
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post
There are racing techniques that don't often apply to recreational skiing. How many times have you seen someone free skiing while making double pole plants (unless they doing drills)?
Constantly. But then, I ski with a lot of racers.

Here's a sequence of me using a double plant to abruptly end a turn and pivot into a new one. Same concept as the WC example, obviously much lower quality .

I'm heavily angulated here, coming perpendicular to the fall line.


Here's the double plant


And the ensuing quick pivot into a new turn




I find double plants useful for situations like this, where I want to abruptly end a carve, or in an SL course, but I also find them useful as a good recentering tool, as others have mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by altaskier11
Even in SL, you plant for rythm. You don't need to plant, but it helps in regulating your turn initation and keeping you on on track.
Wrong. In cases of extreme offsets, as shown in the WC video, these plants are essential. They are also a recovery tool for an off-balance racer, in general.

Here's a recovery example, using Janica Kostelic at Levi last year (she won).

She comes into this turn airborne, doing a great job of absorbing her skis' huge, unanticipated rebound.



She manages to get into decent position at the gate


But comes out of the turn rather off-balance


She pulls herself out of the predicament with a plant


And gets back on line for the next gate
post #60 of 63
Skiing without Pole Plants (touches or brushes)??
Imagine conducting an orchestra without a baton??
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › pole plant not used anymore?