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Kids - wedge or STP? - Page 3

post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Hmm--that would've been around 1988, in Austria, wouldn't it? Here's something to jog your memory even more, Bud!



Don't you miss stretch pants?

(Bud is the one in the red jacket, third from the right. I'm behind the camera.)

Best regards,
Bob
Phil is that you in the pink???
post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post
Excuse me Bob, but that picture hurts my eyes. (I wonder if we will look back at pictures from 2006 the same way in 20 years.)
The only thing I see are a bunch of smiling faces! Hopefully that won't change.
post #63 of 80
Hey Bud,
What are those boots you're on? I recognize a few of those guys... Was that the 1st Academy in Austria? If so I was there. I was in a group with Chris Fellows. What a great time! I think I had a pair of blue & red Ski Team pants with screw in shin pads, I don't think I ever screwed them in. I wasn't doing a lot of shinning in those days.
I went back to St. Christoph in 2000, hasn't changed a lot, except I don't remember seeing too many stretch pants.
Anyway, I remember Tim Petrick introducing Centerline to us at an Examiners meeting at Granlibaken. I think it was a year or 2 earlier, but maybe not. It all runs together at this point.
I do remember the turn entry being described as being some kind of imaculate edge release. neither up nor down. It seemed quite foreign at the time. In reality it is just what we are doing today, moving the CM diagonally across the skis toward the center of the new turn.
Thanks for the memories,
JF
post #64 of 80
4ster--yes, I took that picture at the first PSIA National Academy in St. Christoph. It was a good time, wasn't it? (I was in the same group as Bud, but I and my scarlet Schneiderhosen and lemon yellow and lime-green Mahre Training Center padded sweater were out of the picture. You may thank me later, T-Square!)

I vividly remember working with the Center Line concepts in clinics and a DCL tryout in the year or two prior to that Academy, but it was in St. Christoph that Center Line was officially introduced as PSIA's new technical model.

It was an enlightened concept, based on movements that are still applicable today, as you suggest. It created the awareness, in a nutshell, of the difference between pushoff-based turns and more modern edge-release-based turns. Center Line marked a drastic change in the way PSIA viewed teaching and technique, ending the days of "Final Forms" and emphasizing the concepts of "linear" and "lateral" learning and "teaching for transfer." It was brilliant, I thought (and still think), but unfortunately, it seems that few people then, and even through the years that followed, really grasped the concept.

Enter Epicski, and this very discussion!

Best regards,
Bob
post #65 of 80
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
PSIA has had many great concepts over the years that have gone by the wayside.
The beautiful thing about the Centerline is that it gives a reference point for good skiing, incorporating the Skills Concept & how one can adjust their emphasis depending on the situation. It goes hand in hand with the Stepping Stones, IMO.
I think the Austrians were still pretty much in the Final Forms stage at that time. I remember having some great discussions with (Proffesor) Franz Hopplicher. He seemed quite intrigued with what PSIA was doing at the time.
I wonder if the origanal poster is still reading this?
JF
Peronally, I have started many runs on steep terrain with bad light & variable snow with a classic up-stem. It allows me to feel my way into the unknown without actually commiting. I hope no one was watching...
post #66 of 80
Quote:
I wonder if the origanal poster is still reading this?
Ha! Sorry, MattL--looks we've done again what ski instructors do so well--turn any discussion into a discussion about us! As you can see, your innocent question about "Wedge" vs. "Direct to Parallel" touched on a pretty hot button for ski instructors. I hope your original question got answered satisfactorily before we got sidetracked by nostalgia and Austria and stretch pants and such!

If you have any other questions, I hope we haven't made you afraid to ask.



Best regards,
Bob
post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Excellent post, Oldtimer!

I don't know how many times I've seen a great skiing kid having a blast with totally natural, instinctive movements, sometimes showing a wedge, while Mom and Dad ski behind with some bizarre and misinformed technique yelling "stop wedging--pull your skis together--ski parallel--NO! not like that! . . . ." Poor kid--having his fun ruined and his technique tortured both at the same time. And worse--learning not to trust his body, or its ability to learn. All in the name of a static misinformed adult construct called "parallel." It's tragic!
You could easily substitute ski instructor for parent in the above. In fact let's look at reality. In most ski schools the kids instructors are the least experienced or qualified. They are mostly kids who are certainly qualified for the fun part but usually have litle training. The adults who teach usually can't ski so aren't making the correct movement patterns for the kdis to follow. They prob have no flow or go in their own skiing.

Most ski schools and programs under estimate the ability of kids and what they are capable of. Look at the ridiuclous practice of having kids ski wihtout poles. When kids reach the age of 6 they are more than capable of handling them but schools won't give them to them because it makes their job more difficult.

As far as Wedge VS Direct. I agree let's not rehash this debate but let's also look at a reality. How many instructors teach a big old breaking wedge right in the begining? So as you said many learn early "that control means brake--or die....In the "brake or die" lesson, students will learn bad habits and bad, defensive, braking skiing."

I would also disagree with your example above because if in fact a kid was skiing with "natural, instinctive movements", and gliding and going and turning and not braking then they would not be saying that because the wedge would already have disappeared on it's own after a turn or two.
post #68 of 80
I think the kids safety comes first. I don't blame the ski school at all for teaching kids how to stop.

My kids are a lot like me (no surprise there), and I suspect a lot of kids are like that. They WILL want to try the next hill after the magic carpet. It will be a bit steeper, and if they have not been taught how to stop they go sailing down it in an out of control gliding wedge.

If your kids are content to stay on the flats until they can turn a "gliding" edges-released "wedge" uphill (this I have to see to believe) to slow down, your kids are a lot easier to please than mine. Is your name Ned Flanders?

EDIT: The problem is not differentiating braking from going. They are two seperate things, but they can both be done with edges. Stopping has it's place and it's a very important skill. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
post #69 of 80

wedge vs stem

Thanks to all of you who have responded to my question about the difference
between the wedge and stem, and special thanks to Bob Barnes whom I specifically mentioned in my question.

I do understand the concept of defensive vs. offensive moves ( mainly via the Epic forum) and am continually fine-tuning my own skiing to start the transition with the downhill release. It makes a huge difference.

I do need to work on developing the offensive movements in my beginners. Like many of us instructers, I really haven't had a lot of training in this at the lower end.

Anyway, thanks again.

cdnguy
post #70 of 80
Wow! that photo brings back memories! I totally forgot that you and I were in the same group. I remember Jay Evans that's about it and that I got very very sick that week and missed some great skiiing. What a great group we had though. Remember skiing off the Valuga Bahn? and that steep narrow chute under the foot bridge? That had some pucker factor! Do you remember who some of the other group members were?

Thanks Bob!

Big E,

See if I can jar my memory some more?
The Wedge xtie:
Key words: "Steer and Release"
From the skidded christie completion of one turn the skier will simultaneously steer the tip of the uphill ski toward the fall line while releasing the downhill edge, guiding the skis into a wedge position. (the pivot point for both movements is under the foot, tips go down hill) After the skis are guided around past the fall line the inside ski is match into a christie position (Christie is when skis are skidding on corresponding edges) with the axis point under the foot. Again the stance width remains the same. A diagram here would be awesome.(no tail push of tails rather a guiding of both tips into the fall line. width of stance remains relatively equal throughout demo). When the demo is done correctly the skis will match smoothly. In fact if the "wedge turn" demo is done correctly, simply increasing speed, or pitch, will cause the christie phase.

I know others here could describe this demo more accurately than I but that is the jist of it.
post #71 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Ha! Sorry, MattL--looks we've done again what ski instructors do so well--turn any discussion into a discussion about us! As you can see, your innocent question about "Wedge" vs. "Direct to Parallel" touched on a pretty hot button for ski instructors. I hope your original question got answered satisfactorily before we got sidetracked by nostalgia and Austria and stretch pants and such!

If you have any other questions, I hope we haven't made you afraid to ask.



Best regards,
Bob
I'm here! You didn't scare me off. I spent the weekend doing fun stuff like painting my garage. I'll go back and read this...and I'll be sure to print it out for my son to read, I'm sure he will find it helpful. ;-)

I also used to wear those stretch racing pants and padded sweaters but I was only about 15 at the time. I think I skied on Rossi ST Comps.

One question - can any of you guys still fit in those pants?
post #72 of 80
Thank you very much bud! That is a very helpful post.

It shows no negative movements, and it indicates the timing of the matching -- after inside ski is past fall-line. There isn't even a dead-end movement here. Release(and guide), transfer (weight naturally shifts to outside ski) and engage (load).
post #73 of 80
Sidecut-
(not to hijack this thread, but I cannot resist)

Easy on us coaches and instructors. I personally find that the transition to poles is highly variable anywhere in the 5 to 7 year age group. With many less strong/ less aggressive skiers the addition of polls gives them a reason to drop the hands and drag them behind. My aim is always to get kids over their skis and off the tails. I am all about getting them forward and until you can do a proper pole plant, poles really don't aid that.

6 y/olds are capable of huge improvements in their skiing. That said, from the photos posted erlier of Matt's son, I wouldn't rush him into poles yet. I would wait until I saw a more athletic stance and a more dynamic turn formation before I added any more variables.

Once you add poles, you can't really say "oh no, my mistake"- once they have them they will not part with them except for the occassional drill- so we don't rush.

We have lots and lots of J5's who can't really do a proper pole plant- not becuase they haven't been taught, but becuase it is hard for many to put all of the pieces together.

And yes, with young kids it is easier to work with them w/o poles (especially boys)--
post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
Sidecut-
(not to hijack this thread, but I cannot resist)

Easy on us coaches and instructors. I personally find that the transition to poles is highly variable anywhere in the 5 to 7 year age group. With many less strong/ less aggressive skiers the addition of polls gives them a reason to drop the hands and drag them behind. My aim is always to get kids over their skis and off the tails. I am all about getting them forward and until you can do a proper pole plant, poles really don't aid that.

6 y/olds are capable of huge improvements in their skiing. That said, from the photos posted erlier of Matt's son, I wouldn't rush him into poles yet. I would wait until I saw a more athletic stance and a more dynamic turn formation before I added any more variables.

Once you add poles, you can't really say "oh no, my mistake"- once they have them they will not part with them except for the occassional drill- so we don't rush.

We have lots and lots of J5's who can't really do a proper pole plant- not becuase they haven't been taught, but becuase it is hard for many to put all of the pieces together.

And yes, with young kids it is easier to work with them w/o poles (especially boys)--
Your ski lesson can easily turn into a fencing lesson if you let the wrong kids have poles. Further, the younger kids are almost completely unaware of other kids around them, making poles very dangerous even when no horseplay is involved. Many times when I have kids climbing a carpet, and one of them falls, the others behind him continue to walk forward and pileup like a bunch of toy robots. It is funny to watch, but the last thing those kids need is a pair of poles. Even many adult beginners are dangerous with poles. They adopt some very innovative positions, many of which place the poles so as to be dangerous to others.
post #75 of 80
Big E,

Yes, we tryed to get away from a concious active weight transfer and allow in to happen as a result of building forces in the turn. I wonder if and how that demo has evolved to this day in time? I can not visualize a smoother turn?

4ster,

Yes, that was the first Academy in Stanton! and those were the Salomon SX92's I believe? I just think how much better I could have skied in a four buckle boot? Good times!
post #76 of 80
Thanks for the picture. Now I know that "bud heishman" is an alias. I'm suprised that you had time for National Academey between shooting Bull Durham and Field of Dreams.
post #77 of 80
Hah! "You funny joe, we kill you last!"

The photo is obviously out of focus!

b
post #78 of 80
This has a demo and description of the wedge christie:

http://www.vailbcschools.com/DEMOSVIDEOS.htm
post #79 of 80
Some great discussion going on in this thread!

Excellent description of the why's and why nots of poles for kids, OldTimer--thanks! Even with adults, I'm often reminded of Phil Mahre's great line that "if poles were half as important as most people think they are, we'd call the sport 'Poling'!"

Quote:
turn entry being described as being some kind of imaculate edge release. neither up nor down.
That's a point I've been trying to impress on instructors for years! "Release" is an edging function--skis release when tipped less than "critical edge angle." I've been on the warpath against the too common expression "extend to release," which not only confuses movement pools but also causes terrible problems down the road when people start skiing faster and skiing in bumps, where the release must often occur when deeply flexed. Tip (flatten) to release. Rising may sometimes accompany the movement, as we relax out of a turn, but we must keep the two movements separate in our minds. I want to be able to control my edge angle and to flex and extend my legs independently of each other.

Quote:
"Steer and Release"
From the skidded christie completion of one turn the skier will simultaneously steer the tip of the uphill ski toward the fall line while releasing the downhill edge, guiding the skis into a wedge position. (the pivot point for both movements is under the foot, tips go down hill) After the skis are guided around past the fall line the inside ski is match into a christie position (Christie is when skis are skidding on corresponding edges) with the axis point under the foot. Again the stance width remains the same. A diagram here would be awesome.(no tail push of tails rather a guiding of both tips into the fall line. width of stance remains relatively equal throughout demo). When the demo is done correctly the skis will match smoothly. In fact if the "wedge turn" demo is done correctly, simply increasing speed, or pitch, will cause the christie phase.
Great description of the Center Line(TM) Wedge Christie, Bud. For those who think linearly and sequentially, I might reverse the words in the first line: "Release and Steer," rather then "Steer and Release," but other than that, it's a clear and accurate image of the maneuver--then and still now.

Must have been something in the Weissbrau, I guess--I got sick at that Academy too. I spent two days in bed with a high fever and could hardly eat the rest of the time. Still remember some awesome skiing, though. Hiking down into the chute from the Velluga until it was too narrow to sidestep any further and then just straightlining it until it got wide enough to make some turns. . . . Just think how much farther down we could have sidestepped on today's little skis! I recently came across an old notebook with the names of everyone in our group. I have no idea what I did with it, but I'll let you know when I come across it again.

Best regards,
Bob
post #80 of 80
Glad you're still here, MattL!

Your question is moot--I think I gave those stretch pants away to a yard sale a couple years ago. So--heck, yeah, I could still fit. And you can't prove otherwise. . . .

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