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Atomic bindings pre-release issues? - Page 5

post #121 of 146
I love it when people talk about not lowering their DIN after 50. The charts are based on bone density (height /weight give bone structure/density prediction) and torque values (boot sole length is lever arm). Bone density takes a nose dive after 50, same as testosterone and HGH after 30, this doesn't get made up by shop techs to mess with you, it's based on actual science.

It sounds like A-Man knows how he wants his bindings to perform, but why does everyone balk at admitting physical changes with age?
post #122 of 146
As for skier type vs. ability level...no correlation at all.

An agressive athletic person who has never skied before could be a type II or even III. It's not a measure of ability, control has nothing to do with it.

Someone who skis 'catiously on easier terrain' knows what that is, someone who'prefers higher speeds and difficult terrain' knows who they are. If you 'don't fit all the criteria of I or III you are type II'

Don't over think it.
post #123 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
I love it when people talk about not lowering their DIN after 50. The charts are based on bone density (height /weight give bone structure/density prediction) and torque values (boot sole length is lever arm). Bone density takes a nose dive after 50
Very good points Whiteroom. 50 is still just an average though, wouldn't you agree that for some people it can happen at 45, 47, 50, 53, 57, etc. depending on a lot of factors throughout their lives. Do you think there is a strong correlation between this nosedive in bone density and how aggresively people continue to ski? That is probably hard to say, I'd imagine it is different for everyone.

I have skied with an 82 year old who could ski faster smoother, and got more air off an off-piste roller than I. Of course his bone density would desire a lower din (than age 49, or 32 for him anyways, of course DIN didn't exist back then), but given the way he could still ski wouldn't a fall from an unnecessary release still be a bad thing for all of his bones? (I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm actually curious about your thoughts on exceptional situations like this)

There are so many grey areas with this issue that Skier level type descriptions almost seem useless. There is no way that the masses examine the description as closely as we are here, and there is definately misinterpretation all the time. There are many extreme cases where these rules don't apply effectively, and it seems the current descriptions aren't a very good base either, since nobody can agree with exactly what the hell any of it means.
post #124 of 146
I'm turning 50 soon, so I'll be a type I after correcting for age. Recommended DIN 6.

I guess I'll be backing down to 3 (non-DIN scale of 1 to 5) on my VĂ³iles. Or should I try 2 first?
post #125 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Ok, I'm going to let you guys in a secret that works with ALL binding brands, and eliminates pre-release....

If you keep pre-releasing on a setting of, say, 5.5, turn 'em up to 6.5. If you STILL pre-release, turn em up again. When you reach the point where they don't pre release anymore... that is your setting.

Remember the DIN chart is just a set of numbers to standardize mechanical release values among different brands. A setting of 6 on a Look is theoretically the same as a setting of 6 on a Marker. However, because of elasticity differences, design differences, etc. there can be differences between brands. As has been mentioned before, this topic has been beaten to death. People seem to feel that they can ski Looks on a lower setting than Marker (as an example) This may be true, although I don't have enough time on each binding to say for sure. HOWEVER, if you normally ski looks on 6, then go to Markers and pre-release on 6, I don't necessarily think that is a problem with the bindings. There IS a number where you will stay in. And don't worry, it won't be too high. You aren't going to suddenly go from a number where your ski comes off for no reason, to a number that won't ever release.
So turn your bindings up and lets move on.
I personally ski Markers. They are set on 12. I never pre release. If I owned Look or Salomon could I stay in with a setting of 10? I don't know.... doesn't really matter to me. Would it be an advantage to set it lower? People get a little too hung up on the number that appears in the window of the binding.
so, do you keep upping the DIN setting until your leg breaks, then back it down a half?
As been said elsewhere, there are many reasons for release that the DIN setting had nothing to do with, causing someone using this method to raise their DIN setting for no good reason.
Quote:
"I love it when people talk about not lowering their DIN after 50. The charts are based on bone density (height /weight give bone structure/density prediction) and torque values (boot sole length is lever arm). Bone density takes a nose dive after 50"
This got driven home this weekend. I just got back from my CPR refresher, where the EMT teaching the course mentioned giving CPR to an older person. His comment was, if you're giving CPR to a 70+ YO person, no matter what shape they were in, and don't break thier ribs, your compressions weren't deep enough....
I immediately thought of the DIN chart, and the fact that I just turned 50 and didn't back down my DIN settings.
post #126 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
so, do you keep upping the DIN setting until your leg breaks, then back it down a half?
Listen. I was addressing the problem of PRE-release. (ie. your skis fall off during a normal turn, or when hitting an ordinary bump) I guarantee you aren't going to all of a sudden go from your skis falling off for no reason to never releasing simply by turning the DIN up a notch.

Once again, we will assume that you have already checked the painfully obvious things.... 1) are your bindings installed correctly? 2) Are they broken? 3) Do you have a build up of snow/ice on your boots? 4) Is the forward pressure and toe height set properly? 5) Are your DIN levels set correctly according to the chart?

If you have checked all these things, and your skis continue to pre-release, you need a higher DIN setting. Period.

With all the variations in skiing styles, speed, terrain, snow conditions, muscular strength etc. , it would be very naive to think that there is some magic "chart" that will automatically tell you the setting that is right for you. That would really be something if they could do that! What the DIN chart WILL do is give you a good starting point and will probably be close for the average skier who is roughly your height, weight and boot sole length.

Since the binding companies have a certain degree of responsibility and could theoretically be sued if they recommend a setting that ends up being too high , the binding DOESN'T release, and the person is injured, wouldn't it make sense that they would err on the side of too low?

Seriously, guys.... the DIN chart is a recommendation, not a law.
post #127 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post

Seriously, guys.... the DIN chart is a recommendation, not a law.
Blasphemer! :

The DIN chart was the third tablet handed down to Moses by God.

THOU SHALT NOT...

exceed thy DIN recommendation.
post #128 of 146
Quick and Dirty DIN 'rules':

Skier type isn't ability based, if you don't meet all the requirements for type I or III you're a II.

The factors that determine DIN are Height, Weight, Boot sole length, skier type and age. When comparing DIN you need to consider all factors not just weight and 'ski type' (ability).

The charts tend to err on the 'safe' side (read:low)

If you have to ask about raising your DIN you probably shouldn't

If you have to ask how to raise it you probably shouldn't

There are reasons for 'pre-release' that often don't involve too low a DIN setting. Check them before cranking.

Be safe out there (see below).

Skiing is a HAZARDOUS activity, you aren't safe. Do it long enough, often enough and you WILL get hurt. If you can't accept that don't ski.
post #129 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Blasphemer! :

The DIN chart was the third tablet handed down to Moses by God.

THOU SHALT NOT...

exceed thy DIN recommendation.
LMAO
post #130 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by torfinn View Post
LMAO
I enjoyed that quite a bit too, Bob!
post #131 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Quick and Dirty DIN 'rules':

Skier type isn't ability based, if you don't meet all the requirements for type I or III you're a II.

The factors that determine DIN are Height, Weight, Boot sole length, skier type and age. When comparing DIN you need to consider all factors not just weight and 'ski type' (ability).

The charts tend to err on the 'safe' side (read:low)

If you have to ask about raising your DIN you probably shouldn't

If you have to ask how to raise it you probably shouldn't

There are reasons for 'pre-release' that often don't involve too low a DIN setting. Check them before cranking.

Be safe out there (see below).

Skiing is a HAZARDOUS activity, you aren't safe. Do it long enough, often enough and you WILL get hurt. If you can't accept that don't ski.
Very reasonable
post #132 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I just inadverdently reread you post. your Type III description is just WRONG.:
Try Heading to page 89 of the Tyrolia tech manual. How wrong was I again?:
.
post #133 of 146
I'm over 50 by a few years. Ok more than a few. But I sure in the hell won't ski with my DIN at 5. Cracky,8 DIN is sketchy.
post #134 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee View Post
Try Heading to page 89 of the Tyrolia tech manual. How wrong was I again?
You have got to be kidding me. Your big discovery cartoon on page 89 did not prove a thing!: : : :

for your one goofy Tyrolia cartoon I will show you 10 charts that say type III is mcuh more aggressive and challenging then that.

you blew this wholoe thing out of proportion. all I am still saying is twithout question the lion's share of intermediate (like 98%) skiers are not Type III skiers.

Intermediates do not ski at HIGH SPEED on the MOST challenging terrain. If they do they are not intermediates?

I agree we disagree! Hope you didn't spend too much time Googling around to come up with that corny Tyrolia drawing????
post #135 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
You have got to be kidding me. Your big discovery cartoon on page 89 did not prove a thing!: : : :
So the people at Tyrolia are wrong as well? My description was almost verbatim the same.

Page 14 on Rossi's manual is wrong as well.
post #136 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
.............
I agree we disagree! Hope you didn't spend too much time Googling around to come up with that corny Tyrolia drawing????
No, don't loose any sleep, I came across my hard copy of the manual and remembered the link. Thanks for your concern.
post #137 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee View Post
No, don't loose any sleep, I came across my hard copy of the manual and remembered the link. Thanks for your concern.
Happy to see you have a bevy of comic books that you use to classify skiers.

TRUCE!!!!! OK we have beat it to death. You must be a true analytical 'cuz you just can't let it go.

I give up, you are right!!!!!
post #138 of 146
Damn I thought the Cat fight was just starting.
post #139 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Damn I thought the Cat fight was just starting.
Can't have a Cat fight, when there is only one cat in the fight. tief is a girl!
post #140 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Can't have a Cat fight, when there is only one cat in the fight. tief is a girl!
Not too cool A-man. C'mon , let it go
post #141 of 146
Herr Schnee.
Lassen sie ihren Zorn gehen, mein freund. Den er nicht versteht
post #142 of 146
Ya genau, danke.
post #143 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee View Post
Ya genau, danke.
Bitte
post #144 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Not too cool A-man. C'mon , let it go
Garry, get a clue. I waved the white flag 2 posts ago. Have a sense of humor for god sake!
post #145 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Garry, get a clue. I waved the white flag 2 posts ago. Have a sense of humor for god sake!
I understand that but Tief is as much a lady as you are.
No offense intended but a physiological fact
post #146 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
I understand that but Tief is as much a lady as you are.
No offense intended but a physiological fact
Someone told me he was a she!:

Get it now!:

My bad if he is a he!:
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