EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Dobermann 150 spoiler position
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dobermann 150 spoiler position

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I just got a pair of Dobermann 150s and was wondering what people have found to be the best for spoiler position. I've tried it (in my basement, not on snow) with the spoiler at the centered positions with respect to the hash marks, and completely out. I feel more balanced with the spoiler completely out, but have people found that to be too upright? How would I get something in between? Would I have to shave down the spoiler?
post #2 of 22
Completely out. It's the first thing I did. Jeff didn't even see me in them with the spoiler in (it was the first thing he did to the XTs, too). Unless you have very skinny calves, lose it.
post #3 of 22
I skied with it in last year, I haven't tried them without it yet.
post #4 of 22
I have done both. I prefer in, but I have narrow calves. Try it and see what is most comfortable - make sure you aren't getting a gap behind your leg though if you remove it. I have heard that can throw you in the backseat and really ruin the lower leg fit...
Later
GREG
post #5 of 22
D(C)--it's a customizable fit thing, which means it should be customized for you and you alone. There is no universal "best" answer.

But it is a critical adjustment for that stiff boot (I've been in the same boot for a couple seasons). That simple shim affects several things. Number 1 is fore-aft alignment, which is especialy critical with a stiff boot. (This issue was much discussed in the current thread, Best Bump Technique, which I strongly encourage you to read if you have not already.)

It also affects the angle of your ankle joint. If you lack sufficient range of "dorsiflexion" (bending your ankle forward, toes toward shins), having the shim in place can cause all kinds of problems, including collapsing your arches due to over-pronation, which can cause knee problems and contribute to edging problems.

And, of course, it affects fit.

I'm the opposite end of the spectrum from Steve (SSH) with my skinny calves. I need the spoiler shims in there, and near their maximum (lowest) position. I need them not only to take up space, but also to increase the effective forward cuff angle a little. Without them, the Dobermans put me way too upright, which causes havoc in bumps and any high-performance skiing. For Steve, on the other hand, the shims give him too much forward lean, which is why they took them out.

Frankly, that boot is one that pretty much requires some professional setup if you really want it to work right for you (not to mention fit!). Good (which is to say, few) bootfitters will be able to answer your question when they see you and work with you in the boots.

Best of luck! It's a great boot--one of the very best once you get it dialed in just right.

Best regards,
Bob
post #6 of 22
Interesting post, Bob.

Don't you also have a gas pedal? 3mm, 5mm?

Could you speak to the combination of the gas pedal and the spoiler in your situation?

Seems the gas pedal would undo much of what you're trying to get from the spoiler (other than filling the area). Are you balancing your dorsiflexion range & fore/aft alignment with these two adjustments?

Currently in my boots, I have removed the spoiler and have a 5mm gas pedal (on a 295mm sole length). I'll be visiting Jeff next week to have him mold a pair of these to my feet, so I'm soaking all this boot stuff up with great interest right now.
post #7 of 22
As stated above spoilers are necessary to fill space for skinny ankled folks, and a choice for others. My experience has led me to conclude: don't use them if you don't have to. Using a spoiler generally does not allow you to stand straight up in the lift line or between turns and release the tension from you leg muscles, resulting in you getting tired much faster. IMHO a boot that locks you in a forward postion is not good for anything other than racing gates, and those guys usually unbuckle them when they get to the bottom of every run. Skiing is hard enough without using boots that tire you out.

Try the boots on at home and see if you can stand in an unflexed postion with your legs relaxed, if not you need to put the spoilers farther down or get rid of them.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
and those guys usually unbuckle them when they get to the bottom of every run. Skiing is hard enough without using boots that tire you out.

I've never seen anyone leave dobies buckled between runs, ever.
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
I've never seen anyone leave dobies buckled between runs, ever.
{Raises hand}
post #10 of 22
Quote:
{Raises hand}
Fair enough. Granted, most people I see wearing them are racers with 4 sizes less than their shoe/foot size. Still, I've seen instructors with them, and they unbuckle too.

On a different note, what do all of you dobie skiers think about power strap placement? I ski with it over the shell, in the traditional spot. People have suggested putting it under the shell, over the liner directly. Opinions/impressions?
post #11 of 22
On the Aggressor, it doesn't look to me like I'll be able to ski with it over the shell. The front top of the cuff isn't high enough. I am going to ask Jeff about replacing it with my Booster, too.
post #12 of 22
I'd go for a booster WC, Steve. I'm inclined to think that you won't be able to bend the dobes as easily with the standard one.
post #13 of 22
I rarely unbuckle my boots--they fit so well that they just don't have to be that tight. In fact, when I do unbuckle them, it is often just so that will feel snugger when I rebuckle them at the top of the lift--not to make them more comfortable on the lift.

Chris--I do not have the "gas pedal" on my boots. I have equal height riser plates front and back.

Best regards,
Bob
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
Try the boots on at home and see if you can stand in an unflexed postion with your legs relaxed, if not you need to put the spoilers farther down or get rid of them.
I just want to point out that removing the spoiler (moving it up) puts you in a more upright position, and moving it down will push you farther forward. Also, remember, that while Dobermann's may be uncomfortable in the lift line, they were not meant for or designed for their lift line performance.

Later

GREG
post #15 of 22
Chris, regarding the gas pedal... It is a common misconception to think that a gas pedal under the toe 'un-does' the advantages that a spoiler can create regarding forward lean, when in fact it is just the opposite. [I may have misunderstodd your post, and a full discussion of this should be taken to another thread...] Anyhow, consider what a gas pedal will do to the angle that your shin is at if you keep your knees, hips and upper body over the sweet spot of the ski where they should be. It actually increases the forward lean/angle of your shins. I use a 'gas pedal' on a few pairs of my skisto enable me to pressure the tips more easily (under the bindings).
Later
GREG
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
I just want to point out that removing the spoiler (moving it up) puts you in a more upright position, and moving it down will push you farther forward. Also, remember, that while Dobermann's may be uncomfortable in the lift line, they were not meant for or designed for their lift line performance.

Later

GREG
I agree that the Dobbies were not designed for standing around. I just wanted to make the point that if your boots do not allow you to stand up enough to completely release the muscle tension in your legs between turns and in the lift line, then your legs are not going to last very long. See how far you can walk in a squat compared to standing up. If your boots lock you forward then they may make you carve great, but only for a limited time because your legs will be continuously stressed.

Everyone needs to find equipment that fills their particular needs, but having boots that you must unbuckle every run makes no sense for me. That's one of the things I like about Kryptons, they allow me to relax while skiing more than any other high preformance boot I have been in, which lets me ski longer without tiring. Obviously the Dobies are a tool designed for a different job.
post #17 of 22
Greg,

Well, I'm not sure if you missed what I was saying or not so I'll try to clarify...

All else being the same, I would expect installing the rear spoiler would result in the lower leg leaning forward -more- than without it.

I'm using the term gas pedal to mean a shim under the toe (of boot or binding toe piece).

All else being the same, I would expect installing a gas pedal would result in the lower leg leaning forward -less- than without it.

I'm trying to bend my mind around the frame of reference you are suggesting that has a gas pedal increasing the forward lean angle of the lower leg (shin). So far I'm not following it...

I can certainly see where using both is applicable as the angle of the lower leg is not the only one we need to be concerned with.

Chris

PS I don't think this is off topic from the original question, but move it if ya like.
post #18 of 22
Doesn't raising the toe force you to compensate by leaning farther forward to maintain balance, thereby increasing forward lean? The converse is that raising the heel makes you lean back to maintain balance, like a woman in high heels forced to stand straighter.
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
Doesn't raising the toe force you to compensate by leaning farther forward to maintain balance, thereby increasing forward lean? The converse is that raising the heel makes you lean back to maintain balance, like a woman in high heels forced to stand straighter.
Yes.
post #20 of 22
Simple exercise:

Stand barefoot, flat footed on the floor. Note the angle between the top of your foot and your shin.

Now, stick the toes of your sneakers under the ball of each foot, BUT keep your body.balance point, in the same position (don't move anything other than lifting your toes up). Observe the anlge (decrease for those not paying attention).

Now, just for kicks, put on your wife's high heels (as suggested above) (no wife, then move your sneakers to your heels and set the toes of the sneakers under your heels). Your heel should be lifted now. D not adjust your body position and note the angle between your shin and foot (increased).

Thus, the shim that decreases the angle and provides more forward lean if the toe shim (giving more forward pressure - hence the 'gas pedal' terminology). This isn't a remedy for all skiers, but if you are knowledgable and skilled enough to always be over the balance point of the ski, adding a gas pedal can really increase your ability to pressure the tips of your skis. It is not for everyone though.

Later

GREG
post #21 of 22
Thanks for the explanation, Greg!

Now I understand what you are saying. I cannot say I'm convinced at this point, though I will experiment with it.

Chris
post #22 of 22
Chris, like I said, obviously the fix isn't for everyone. For this to work in getting more forward pressure, the skier must already have a good sense of where their body should be in relation to the sweet spot of the ski. If you allow the toe lift to lean you backwards you are not treating it properly. FWIW, I am not a huge fan of heel lifts either because in most cases they encourage back seat skiing - but that really is a topic for another thread.
Later
GREG
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Dobermann 150 spoiler position