or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › forward lean and mogul -off piste skiing
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# forward lean and mogul -off piste skiing - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by kimwal Bud, Doesn't matter dynamically or static. Stiff boots impair ankle flexion (0*) and if the hip flexes , the knee flexes as much as the hip and we sit back. (0* + 15*=15* at knee for balance). You cannnot flex your knees without bending the ankle or hip without falling over. Hope this makes sense. Kimwal
I do not see the mogul skier in the montage sitting back or falling over? Hmmm?
Wrong! As i said "ankle + hips= knee". The math doesn't lie. When ankle is zero, hip = knee for balance. if knee > hip you are back. If hip > knee you are bent fwd. In bumper, 0* + 90* =90* (A+H=K). This applies to the case of this bump skier in two frames, but an athletic stance for most skiers and most sports requires some ankle flex, hip flex and an equal total knee flex to be in balance. Try carving or skiing powder with no ankle flexion!
Kimwal,
Wrong? what did I say that was wrong specifically?

I think we are getting our wires crossed.

I realize all boots have some amount of forward lean, some amount of ramp, and some amount of net forward lean (fwd lean - ramp = net fwd lean) which is a prereguisite for skiing. I do not believe our ankles are ever at 0* while skiing unless you have very poorly fitted boots or very soft boots.

I can ski powder with no ankle flexion as long as my ankles are flexed into proper static alignment.

I am simply trying to make the point that a skier in properly balanced boots on the fore/aft plane (ie: ramp, delta, fwd lean, net fwd lean) which places them in a ankle flexed position (not 0*) can ski in balance using primarily, if not solely, the other joints in the body, whatever those angles may equal.
Can we agree on this statement?

I am still honestly curious, did I guess correctly the boot you ski?

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by slowmichael Hello everybody, My first post. I enjoy bumps and off piste but i am not at all a big expert in that kind of stuff. So i take lessons and take advice from"mates-experts" to beter my technique. Some of the people say that i should increase the forwarf flex of my boots or loosen the buckles or even buy softer boots in order to have more ankleflex. But when i started skiing i used softer boots and after a few years i started to have pain in my knees and my ankles to the point that my right ankle was realy very painfull! At that moment i was in France and i went to a bootfitter, he told me your boots are much to soft and thus you are bending your knees and ankle way too much. He also explained to me that since i am a tall guy 6 foot 3 my limbs are pretty long and creating a big leverage on the boots wich also created to much freedom of movement. So i bought a pair of technicas diabolo carbon and indeed my problems wher gone !!! Great. It took some adjusting to the feel of these much stiffer boots but after a while all was ok. But for bumps and off piste as i stated before "people" are telling me basicaly that i need more flexebility. I realy don't know the only thing that i know for sure that when i adjust my technicas to max forward lean and loosen the buckles i get pain in my patelle tendons (the tendons just below the knees) and that is surely not good! When i see pictures of good mogul skiers they seem to be flexing a lot in the knees and the hip whilst of course maintaining a normal (mild) ankle flexion!

Getting back to you specifically slowmichael,

I hope our tangent didn't confuse you too much. I apologize for my rant.

Looking again at your original post and judging your ability merely by your brief description I would make these suggestions.

Because of your height, realize that you have more leverage to flex a boot given an average length foot. This being the case you could, should ski a boot that is a little stiffer and a little higher shaft than average. Also you will need a little more upright forward lean NOT more forward lean, because of your longer tib/fib. Basically, when in your skis, a plumb line from your knee cap should drop over the toe of the boot. If it hangs out over the binding toe piece you are too far forward. Another note on boot flex, I know I advocate being in a "relatively" stiffer boot for ones ability, realize you can go too stiff if your skill level is not sufficient to deal with the more restrictive boot. Having a little more range in flexion will offer more room for errors and subsequent recoveries however, a stiffer boot will reward accurate movements. You must be the judge. Should you choose a stiffer boot I would not suggest jumping directly into a knarly bump run. Begin on groomers and get used to the boots and how they react then progressively seek more challenging terrain. A stiffer boot in the moguls requires more proactive movements in anticipation of accelerations and deccelerations. Because the ankle has a more restricted range of motion the other joints must become more active. This is a trade off for the benefits of having power steering.

You do not need more flexibility in crud, powder, and bumps you just need more practice!

You do need to be properly aligned in a stiffer boot to benefit from it!

It sounds like you are making good choices and have the right instints about what works. Again, I apologize for detracting from the focus on your original question.

good luck!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman http://ourworld.cs.com/BBRNZ/Bumps1.gif your thoughts on this montage Kimwal?
We can argue all we want but what we actually should do is look at videos and photos and use them as reference. Good montage. It actually shows that you are right and I am wrong. There is absolutely no ancle flex. However, Im kind of skiing bumps a little bit differnt. Look at these picktures:

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=1068DA3E

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=80988D97

I can live with the fact that there is less ancle flex in bump skiing than I was assuming, maybe even no ankle flex in some cases, but I still use some. It may be because I dont alter my skiing style that much going into the bumps. Im maybe no good bump skier but I ski bumps well .

### Bud

I realy enjoyed this discussion. I wil try tis stuff with the plumbline, as i ski in tecnica icon carbons and these boots seam to have a big forward lean as it is ,it could be that my knees are to far forward.

Practicing, yes it is so true that i need to work on more balance. My arms ar often alover the place when skiing moguls, very bad!

Thanks.
TDK,

Tryed to view your videos but don't know how to get them to play. The two static snap shots of you looked very good! Let me know the key to getting them to play!

b
forward lean - the angle in degrees the upper cuffs of the ski boot tips the tib/fib forward from the bottom of the boot.

forward flex - generally referred to as the resistance to movement a boot offers in the fore/aft plane. A boot also has lateral flex or stiffness as well as stiffness to the aft, but in general we refer to forward flex. Some boot manufacturers put reference numbers on their boots as an index of forward flex stiffness. note: this number should be used to compare models within that company's offering and is not a standardized indicator.

forward flexion - generally referred to as a verb or action. Ankle flexion through a range of motion. A stiffer boot will offer less flexion or more resistance to flexion throughout the range of ankle motion.

net forward lean - This is the net angle created in the ankle joint when the boot is in an unloaded neutral position. It equals "forward lean" less "ramp angle" (ex: 18 - 6 = 12). This is an important angle when evalutating a skier's dorsiflexion abilities and aids in a properly aligned stance.

Are these definitions in line with the general consensus?

Just trying to help clarify our conversations.

Ankle flexion is important and ankle movements are critical to skiing and balance, I do not dispute this. The "range" of that motion is of lesser value to a better skier who wants any movements of the ankle to transmit the energy quickly and efficiently to the skis. The better skier has adapted his/her flexion movements in other joints to compensate for the reduction in flexion of the ankle.

Even though images of elite skiers may show little "flexion" movements in the ankle joint, be assured they are making many movements of the foot and ankle inside the boot to transmit energy to the ski and affect the center of mass movements. You just can't see them.

Realize this is an evolution, a path of development I do not believe can be short cut. A skier needs to develop their balancing skills progressively in a boot that allows more range of flexion with less resistance to flex before they can appreciate the advantages of a stiffer flexing boot. To short cut the process and attempt to ski a boot that is too stiff too soon will cause developmental road blocks and may reflect negatively in their skiing.

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by slowmichael I realy enjoyed this discussion. I wil try tis stuff with the plumbline, as i ski in tecnica icon carbons and these boots seam to have a big forward lean as it is ,it could be that my knees are to far forward. Practicing, yes it is so true that i need to work on more balance. My arms ar often alover the place when skiing moguls, very bad! Thanks.
Sometimes overlooked, your ski poles should be a few inches shorter for bumps skiing as you are planting up on the mogul while descending into the trough.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman TDK, Tryed to view your videos but don't know how to get them to play. The two static snap shots of you looked very good! Let me know the key to getting them to play! b
If the vids dont play you can download them at the link below the play window. If you are using Apple they might not show at all, sorry.

BTW, your post #38 is very good.

Because of your height, realize that you have more leverage to flex a boot given an average length foot. This being the case you could, should ski a boot that is a little stiffer and a little higher shaft than average. Also you will need a little more upright forward lean NOT more forward lean, because of your longer tib/fib. Basically, when in your skis, a plumb line from your knee cap should drop over the toe of the boot. If it hangs out over the binding toe piece you are too far forward.

I tried that and the plumbline is above my bindings toe piece. When you are writing over the toe of the boot do you mean in front of it or above it?

If you mean in front of it (but not in front of the binding) my boot is probably ok. If you mean on top my knees are to far forward!

I am a bit confussed.

Regards.

Slowmichael
I *think, correct me if I am wrong, but the rule of thumb is that the center of your knee should be over the toe seem of your boot.
slowmichael,

The plumb bob should drop approximately from your knee cap to the tip of your boot not your binding. If it is out over the binding, try a little shim (3mm bontex insole) between your afd and your boot. This will stand you up a bit. Try skiing it and see what you think.

freeskier75,

You are right! when referring to lateral alignment however, we are looking at fore/aft alignment in this scenerio.

b
Thanks bud, I had a question in a different thread (BoF mounting) about fore/aft balance. I was hoping to get your input. Basically my question is, how does mounting back affect fore/aft balance? What about forward mounting? Thanks.

great question Freeskier, I will reply when I have more time.

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by freeskier75 Thanks bud, I had a question in a different thread (BoF mounting) about fore/aft balance. I was hoping to get your input. Basically my question is, how does mounting back affect fore/aft balance? What about forward mounting? Thanks. (srry bout the thread jack)
First, let me say, I have not done any experimentation with skiing a pair of skis with different mounting positions outside of what can be accomplished the the old EssVar bindings which allowed one centimeter ahead or behind the mounting point. Even this small amount is very noticable though.

I have watch Steve Bagley's demonstration of the methodology used with the "Campbell Balancing system" and understand how that works. My question there (and I know the answer) was "what affect do different bindings have on this scenerio? Because when Steve was assessing skiers on the device he did not have a binding on the skis. Now I know without a doubt in my mind that different delta angles affect fore/aft balance and body position over the ski and to not take this fact into consideration when using the balancer is an error in my mind.

So considering all this, I believe in many instances there is merit in positioning the bindings farther ahead on the skis than the manufacturer's recommended mark. Probably a good reference would be to establish where in your boot the first metatarsel head is by tapping on the outside of the boot until you find the center and mark that on the boot. Then find the chord center of your ski and placing the BoF on cord center. This should get you close to where the Campbell balancer would. Though it does not take into account the ramp angle in your boots, or the binding delta angle created.

I wish I knew more about this and maybe one day I will have the opportunity to do some extensive testing and find the answer. The problem is your ski may look like swiss cheese until you found the perfect spot! The best solution is if you can find the ski you want to buy or own mounted with a demo binding that allows you to move the boot fore and aft then experiment with that before you drill your own skis. But again you need to consider what binding you will be mounting too and how that angle is different than the demo bindings delta angle.

Basically, moving the binding too forward will cause the ski to initiate easier but maybe finish a bit more difficult. Moving it too far back will cause a more difficult initiation but finish easier. That being said studies have shown that most mounting points could be farther forward....how far? I dunno? Every ski is different and is why my ballpark answer is BoF on chord center is as good of a reference as I have heard.

Personally I have just always mounted my skis as reccomended and made the fore/aft adjustment in my bindings and boots!

b
Quote:
 Originally Posted by freeskier75 Thanks bud, I had a question in a different thread (BoF mounting) about fore/aft balance. I was hoping to get your input. Basically my question is, how does mounting back affect fore/aft balance? What about forward mounting? Thanks. (srry bout the thread jack)
First, let me say, I have not done any experimentation with skiing a pair of skis with different mounting positions outside of what can be accomplished the the old EssVar bindings which allowed one centimeter ahead or behind the mounting point. Even this small amount is very noticable though.

I have watch Steve Bagley's demonstration of the methodology used with the "Campbell Balancing system" and understand how that works. My question there (and I know the answer) was "what affect do different bindings have on this scenerio? Because when Steve was assessing skiers on the device he did not have a binding on the skis. Now I know without a doubt in my mind that different delta angles affect fore/aft balance and body position over the ski and to not take this fact into consideration when using the balancer is an error in my mind.

So considering all this, I believe in many instances there is merit in positioning the bindings farther ahead on the skis than the manufacturer's recommended mark. Probably a good reference would be to establish where in your boot the first metatarsel head is by tapping on the outside of the boot until you find the center and mark that on the boot. Then find the chord center of your ski and placing the BoF on cord center. This should get you close to where the Campbell balancer would. Though it does not take into account the ramp angle in your boots, or the binding delta angle created.

I wish I knew more about this and maybe one day I will have the opportunity to do some extensive testing and find the answer. The problem is your ski may look like swiss cheese until you found the perfect spot! The best solution is if you can find the ski you want to buy or own mounted with a demo binding that allows you to move the boot fore and aft then experiment with that before you drill your own skis. But again you need to consider what binding you will be mounting too and how that angle is different than the demo bindings delta angle.

Basically, moving the binding too forward will cause the ski to initiate easier but maybe finish a bit more difficult. Moving it too far back will cause a more difficult initiation but finish easier. That being said studies have shown that most mounting points could be farther forward....how far? I dunno? Every ski is different and is why my ballpark answer is BoF on chord center is as good of a reference as I have heard.

Personally I have just always mounted my skis as reccomended and made the fore/aft adjustment in my bindings and boots!

b
I just wanted to say that while the initial question was about moguls and off piste, these are two very different snow types, and require two very different approaches.

You can ski steeps, groomers, everything like you are skiing moguls, but it looks silly, and will not help you be well rounded. I actually think that skiing steeper groomers has way more in common with off piste than moguls do.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by MAGGOT ...I actually think that skiing steeper groomers has way more in common with off piste than moguls do.
Could you elaborate on this?

(you're really cranking up the number of posts over here in the technique forum, what's up with that?)
Well, real mogul skiing is almost 100% rotational, while piste and pow aren't.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) Could you elaborate on this? (you're really cranking up the number of posts over here in the technique forum, what's up with that?)

Ok, first, about groomers being more like off piste than moguls. I guess that is not nessecarily true for everyone, but for the skiers I think are good, and for the way I like to ski steeps, which is as fast I can without wetting myself, the technique seems fairly similar.

Appart from the schmear turn in powder, if you look at big mountain skiers, makign big fluid turns down steeps, they are arcing thier turns like a racer would. Maybe this is just because I used to race, and now really love steep off piste, and have never really been a fan of moguls, but they feel similar to me.

Like I said, that is just one style of skiing powder, shorter turns, like figure 8 style, you porpoise more, whereas what I was talking about, once you get some speed, you are more on the surface.

As for your second point, well, technique anylisys is the one thing TGR really does not have. The maggots seem to more just rip it without anylyzing technique, which is cool, I don't want to spend every chairlift ride beating it to death, but since I don't have a coach or anything, I do spend a decent amount of time trying to pinpoint my own weakness' and bad habits.

I guess talking to others about it, you realize things you have been thinking too.

EDIT: heh, maybe the short answer for your second question is that I hate the place I am living now, and since I live three blocks away from campus (I'm in college) I am spending WAY too much time in the library "studying".

My post count at TGR has friggen skyrocketed too.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › forward lean and mogul -off piste skiing