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post #61 of 108
Amen, Tom. That is the general problem with the touchy-feely, I'm OK you're OK, Politically Correct philosophy of the ultra-liberal Culture of Victimhood. Nobody is responsible for his/her own actions, it's all caused by circumstances outside one's control and we should feel sorry for the bad actor -- NOT punish him/her.

grrrrrrrr... :
post #62 of 108
WOW! Now I've heard it all.

People here blaming Management for poor signage?
People here blaming patrollers for poor enforcement?
People here blaming instructors for poorly teaching the code.
People here blaming teenagers today for being inconsiderate?
... and now people blaming parents for failing to instill manners in their children... YIKES!

I ask you people, when was the last time any of you stopped and politely let someone know that they were putting themselves or others in harms way and how to avoid it? Those people who would rather blame everyone else than pass on a bit of etiquette themselves are truely the ones to blame.
post #63 of 108
Just as I thought that gonzostrike nailed the problem with our society, Cheap Seats found yet another group to blame for the actions of out of control skiers. It seems that those of us who fail to educate the imbeciles who ski with no regard for the general public are to blame. :

Kind of makes gonzo's point, no?
post #64 of 108
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cheap seats:
...I ask you people, when was the last time any of you stopped and politely let someone know that they were putting themselves or others in harms way and how to avoid it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yesterday at about 4 PM. I said it very politely at first. This is what I always do.

I was told to F*** off.

This is exactly what I expected from him because of:

(a) his obvious intention at buzzing the person I was talking down the hill;

(b) his attitude - he yelled at her to "watch out", and,

(c) it happens exactly this way with disgusting regularity.

I then chased him down the hill, cut him off, got in his face, asked him if he wanted to repeat what he said, and told him the same thing again but in much less polite terms. This time I got a "sorry" from an animal that only responds to obviously more dominant animals.

CheapSeats, if you don't experience this sort of interaction regularly on the mtn, consider yourself one lucky babe in the woods because behavior like this is becoming commonplace in the DC area.

Sorry, but I think your comments are woefully naive - this IS a serious problem that is not going to be solved by what "they" will clearly regard as annoying blather from a wimp/"wus".

There IS blame to be placed for the behavior of these people, and corrections can be made.

That being said, one MUST always start out courteously, but not be surprised if it doesn't work. Many of these kids need the behavioral equivalent to a 2x4 to the side of the head.

Tom / PM
post #65 of 108
Okay - I've got to report something GOOD!

Went skiing Friday. A boarder, who I didn't really think was that close to me, buzzed by at a high rate of speed. He obviously felt he might have surprised me since I was stopped and I turned to look when I heard him coming. As he passed he yelled "Sorry."

I inturn said "No Problem but thanks"
post #66 of 108


BTW, I do stop and lecture when I see the out of control idiots. Well, yesterday it wasn't quite a lecture ...... the bomber who was doing a "tuck" through heavy traffic while doing a "photo-op" for the boys at the bottom was called a whole lotta names when after doing a face plant he emereged with a big grin.

I hope the audio portion didn't come out real clear caause some of the words were not very PC. On the other hand, the video may be real cool ....... his buddies will see him getting a royal reaming.
post #67 of 108
Physicsman - I have noticed such incidents far more often out east unfortunately. I've seen fistfights in the lift lines out here! Are we going to have to put 'manners patrollers' out here as well! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #68 of 108
FIRST: Gonzo, let's not paint with such a broad brush. Some injured people really ARE entitled to be compensated, and not ALL "trial lawyers" are that bad. Although I am almost always onthe defcense side of the case since my clients are businesses, I have handled a few plaintiffs' cases in my life, and my conscience is very clear. I also have turned down MANY more plaintiff's cases. Let's be clear: The bad guys are those plaintiff's who are looking to get rich quick and bring "nuisance suits", and the bad guys are those lawyers who agree to help them. That still leaves a number of decent plaintiffs and decent lawyers.

SECOND: Todd, I have never seen that kind of lift line behaviour in northern Vermont, but it may be more prevalent in southern Vermont due to the proximity to urban areas. Just a theory. OK, it's a bias and I admit it!
post #69 of 108
Oboe, you are correct for filling in some important details. I am not against seeking recovery for an injury that honestly deserves compensation. But, I may well disagree with you and others on the types of injury that deserve compensation. What bothers me is the fact that our Nation seems to be caught in such a Culture of Victimhood that nobody seems to understand the concepts of (a) innocent mistakes, (b) accidents, and (c) user error/contributory negligence.

IMHO, most product liability lawsuits fall into the "undeserving" category. And without question, EVERY prod liab case I defended fell into that category. Same with every other personal injury case I ever defended. There is too much medical/chiroQUACKtic fraud supporting the unethical "trial attorneys" who help Victims recover from "evil corporations."

As to "trial lawyers," IMHO 90% of them are simply greedmongers who use "compensation for real injuries" as mere rationalizations for their perpetuation of a modern Robin Hood mentality put into practice. In my experience, every piece of tort reform legislation that the ATLA opposes is guaranteed to have as one of its basic components the following factor: it reduces the ease with which "trial lawyers" may continue their game of extortion and "social justice." The playing field already pitches in the plaintiff's favor.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me on this Oboe. I have known a few plaintiff's lawyers that I like fairly well as people. But I do wonder how they sleep at night with any kind of peace in their respective consciences.

Also, FYI -- I did litigate for a plaintiff on one occasion -- breach of contract for construction of custom cabinetry for a retail store, where the breach caused the cabinets to emit a strong odor of vomit. I wasn't demanding millions, I just wanted to get new cabinets for my client, along with attendant compensation for business interruption.
post #70 of 108
I'll relate a story from so way back that we didn't have brakes on the skis, only ankle straps. I was skiing on a fairly steep hill in Aspen when a guy who looked to be in his late teens and who seemed to have just learned the hockey stop would jam his skis above stopped skiers, total strangers, and spray them with snow and the laugh outrageously and ski off when someone said something to him.

Since I skied with a couple of more timid skiers, I would stop about a third way from the top of the trail to wait for them. So this idiot hockey stops above me and sprays me with somewhat wet snow, so I said: "Don't do this again" and he just laughed and said :"What are you going to do about it" with a smirk.

Next run, sure as hell I'm stopped at the same place and here he comes heading for me with THAT look on his face. Now I wasn't going to hurt the guy, just scare him, so when it was obvious he was up to his trick I stuck my uphill pole toward him and he sat down well before reaching me and his ski came off, him not having an ankle strap and the ski stopped about 30 feet below.

He cursed me out even after I told him that I warned him before not to do this and here it comes: "So what are you going to do about it, bub?"

I said "Watch me". I skied to his ski, picked it up and skied it all the way down Ruthies to the base station and gave it to the Patrol saying I found it over on Bell mountain. If they ever looked for the guy who fell out of this ski, they looked on the wrong mountain. I hope the kid enjoyed the two mile walk.

I felt bad about it afterward, but not for long...

post #71 of 108
You are quite right Oboe - the winter I spent at Jay Peak I didn't see nearly as much of it. It was still a bit more tense than out west, but nowhere near the same league as what we see in the ski areas in closer proximity to the huge cities.

Love your justice Ott, very much a fitting punishment for the kid!
post #72 of 108
Well, its taken me this long to realize that I am infinitely more afraid of people than terrain.

This past weekend 22 bus trips came to Okemo. On top of that, since they have better snow making than the other Vermont resorts, it seemed like half of Killington was at Okemo. Not to over generalize, but the New Yorkers who go to Okemo are pretty much the type that made me want to stay in NYC when I lived there, and the Killington types are for the most part {with Geoff D being an obvious exception} the type that made me leave NY.

Our class was skiing a blue trail, and it seemed that every 5 minutes people around us were crashing into each other. The group of us, who had earlier on reluctantly skied a black trail, begged our instructor to bring us back there, since it was less crowded.

Another thing I noticed. This was a level 5/6 class, and at no time, did anyone crash into a fellow student. This used to happen in levels 1-4 all the time.
post #73 of 108
Jesus Christ people. Why do Americans have so much difficulty getting down a slope without being involved in a collision? Is this going to turn into a case of 'snow rage', chasing down and beating up anyone who goes too fast on the same slope as you. If you go out looking for inconsiderate behaviour you will probably find it, and if you try to pull up everyone who does something stupid of course you will get some negative responses. How would you feel if Joe Blow pulled you over in your car and gave you a talking to, every time you forgot to indicate while driving?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PhysicsMan:

This is lousy advice.

I can't relax, and no one should relax when their loved ones, friends, students, etc. are constantly put in danger by people with zero concept of proper social behavior and limits testing that they should have worked through when they were small children.

Ignoring this problem is exactly the wrong thing to do, and is probably what led to this problem in the first place.

Effectively, responsible adults are being forced to act with increasing frequency in place of the responsibility abdicating teachers, school discipline officers, parents, safety staff, etc. to prevent dominance establishing behavior typical of wild dogs and prison populations from becoming any more commonplace at ski areas.


Tom / PM


Skiing is supposed to be fun but it won't be if you work yourselves up over every case of dumb behavoiur on the mountain. When I say dont worry about everyone else I mean use your own common sense when it comes to your own safety, and let karma/natural selction take care of everyone else.
post #74 of 108
Kiwiski, right on! If conditions were bad enough to make me feel that way, I wouldn't even bother. I have greatly curtailed my local boating for that very reason. It's supposed to be recreation. Why pay all that money and go to all that trouble just to get angry and filled with righteous indignation? Although some people do seem to enjoy feeling that way....
post #75 of 108
Why do Americans have so much difficulty getting down a slope without being involved in a collision? Is this going to turn into a case of 'snow rage', chasing down and beating up anyone who goes too fast on the same slope as you.

This is at the very crux of the problem, Kiwi. Unless you have spent lots of time in this country, you don't quite fathom how bad it can be.

You and Miles have overplayed the issue. It's not like a person, instead of skiing, is busy standing beside a run and counting collisions. One need only pay casual attention while riding the chair up, especially at areas where high-speed chairs are unheard of. I see lots of rudeness without focussing upon it.

You and miles remind me of some folks in a book club I briefly joined. We were discussing the book I chose, "The Mezzanine" by Nicholson Baker. In the book, Baker discusses the minutiae of things he's exposed to on an average work day. He goes into great detail on the texture of the paper bag that holds his small carton of milk bought during lunch hour. He does similar describing on other physical encounters throughout his day.

The folks in my book group said Baker paid "way too much time thinking about" the details of everyday life.

I countered that some people are observant by nature or by training, and it takes little to no intellectual energy to pick up on such details. I am one of those people and I seem to detect the same little things that Baker does. My fellow book group readers did not believe me.

Unless you easily detect rudeness of the type and scope seen on the typically HUGE American scale, you might think that one really has to dwell on manners. Not true. I see rudeness all the time. I don't let it get me hot under the collar. But I do think about it and how to remedy the problem. And, I do enjoy talking about the problem, even if to you and miles it seems like it's detracting from my skiing fun.

Hardly. I don't think I could enjoy skiing any more than I do this season.

Are you really asking me to turn off my brain?

post #76 of 108
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gonzostrike:

Are you really asking me to turn off my brain? :

Not at all, use your own common sense and you are allowed to notice the details but don't feel you have do do something about every case of inconsiderate behavoiur.

The two ski areas I call home have different yet effectve methods for avoiding collisions. One puts a big barrier up the middle of one especially busy run and has one side slow only and the other side fast only. It is nice being able to cruise the fast side without having lots of others to watch out for. The other area has 320 hectares (790 acres) of terrain, no beginners slopes and an average of forty people on the mountain on any day. It is not too hard to avoid others there

I have spent a season at Winter Park and also skied in Utah. most of the problems are in the east coast?
post #77 of 108
Quote by Gonzo: "This is at the very crux of the problem, Kiwi. Unless you have spent lots of time in this country, you don't quite fathom how bad it can be.
You and Miles have overplayed the issue. It's not like a person, instead of skiing, is busy standing beside a run and counting collisions. One need only pay casual attention while riding the chair up, especially at areas where high-speed chairs are unheard of. I see lots of rudeness without focussing upon it."

Well, I definately agree with Miles & Kiwi, and I am NOT 'overplaying' the issue. Skiing is meant to be fun... and it has been for me for all 40 years. If I had to endure half the stories that someone like Ott has related here, I'd probably go only in the backcountry - it seems like he spends a lot of time yelling at other people or being yelled at himself.

None of the people I ski with (and it's a large group) often experience conflict or gross irresponsibility from others, and I hardly think all of us are just 'unobservant'. Of course there are occasional stupid moves, by even the best at times - that's inevitable - and bad apples do exist... everywhere.

This sport is what you make it, and if conflict seems so prevailent then maybe some of you should look within.
post #78 of 108
Thread Starter 
Kiwi is right about one thing here. Although skier and boarder accidents can happen anywhere, it seems that it happens more frequently at the crowded East Coast Resorts. Too many people on narrow, short trails is like the freeway at rush hour. The law of averages comes into play. There will be wrecks. The western Resorts are so expanse. There is more area to ski therefore they are less crowded and fewer incidents of collisions. Also more room to play and a much more enjoyable ski day.

In answer to my own question, I do think that everyone should have some kind of safety training and knowledge of the Code and skier/boarder ettiquete (hope I didn't butcher that word too bad). Resorts offer lessons why not safety classes? Should we all have to be certified? I just don't know. I'm against regulations that infringe on our freedoms but here in N.Y. you have to have a safety certificate for boating, jetskiing, and just about everything else that involves a risk. Maybe if we just said everyone under the age of 16 should be required to take a slope safety course. It would be a start. Maybe we should all have to take a test to get be a season pass holder? Wouldn't bother me any.

Do I think instructors should be required to teach slope safety with their lessons? It certainly would help. I know my kids learned the code from their ski instructors as well as learning how to ski. It wasn't required of them but they did. Today I see so many of the kids being taught by instructors who don't know the code themselves. A lot of them little more than kids themselves. A lot of them breaking rules all over the resort in a hurry to get their runs in before lineup time.

I guess maybe i'm getting disenchanted with this sport I love so much. Maybe it's time for me to quit Patrolling and just try to relax and ski all day without concern. My very first day of skiing this year was tainted by the collision of a boarder and a 15 year old lovely girl. She was sent flying into the trees along our main slope. When I got there (second one there) her femur was sticking through her ski pants, her jaw was shattered and gashed, already unconscious and in shock from loss of blood. Starflight and the quick work of our Ski Patrol saved her life. Friends and witnesses at the sceene said the guy kept on going. We searched for him throughout the day but i'm sure he took off for the parking lot after he realized what he had done. I said last year was going to be my last year as a patroller. I wish I had been.

Am I disenchanted? Yes. Am I making a big deal out of nothing? You tell me. But, I have enjoyed this sport of skiing for over 40 years. I'd like to ski another 20 at least. The sport is changing, the people are changing, the equipment is changing. We must change too. But we must continue to make positive changes, and have answers to these questions to make our sport safe for all those who chose to enjoy it. The more we talk, thoughts and ideas will come.
post #79 of 108
Cheaps, I will restate, and this time include you along with miles and Kiwi --

you just don't get it.

I don't obsess over this stuff.

I have LOTS of fun skiing.

But I do wonder about the drift in our culture's attitude.

Can that be any clearer? Can a loan you a Q-tip for the earwax, or a pair of reading glasses for the bad reading skill?

heh heh heh, just kidding on the insults, but VERY serious on the statement that you guys overplay this.
post #80 of 108
I agree totally with Gonzo.

However, in fairness, I do realize that there are many possible reasons that some people perceive the problem to be less serious than others.

For starters, as suggested earlier, I'm convinced that there are huge differences in the rate of bad interactions on the mountain simply based on crowd density. This factor is hugely dependent on where you are located in the US/world, how many customers your mountain gets, whether or not you ski on weekends, what types of runs (bowls vs narrow trails) your mountain has and which you frequent, which level of runs you frequent (ie, many more people on greens and blues), etc.

For example, I can go to one of my local areas on a weekday, ski the blacks, and it feels like it did 30 years ago. OTOH, if I ski the greens & blues slowly on weekends with low level skiers whose safety I am responsible for, I feel like I just came back from a war zone. Think about your own patterns of use before you minimize the valid experiences of other people.

Finally, while one can argue that most accidents are preventable, as I have said in previous posts, I'm not talking about the person who occasionally catches an edge and falls into you, or someone who gets thrown in the back seat and is so paralyzed with fear they can't bail out so they pick up speed and cause a horrible collision.

My gripe is specifically with the young males (mostly 'boarders but occasionally skiers) who clearly have enough skill to control their path, but nevertheless intentionally buzz, cut off, and/or clip/bump people. Without exception, they only do this to people they perceive as vulnerable. To test this, in the course of one run, I have switched from skiing in an intentionally awkward wedge (poles up, leaning back) to skiing with linked crossunder turns. The increase in the number of near misses when I look vulnerable is absolutely astonishing. In both cases, I am going at the same downhill speed and occupying the same amount of L-R space on the trail. Try this test for yourself on a crowded weekend day on a low blue.

What this tells me is that there is clear intent and mallice in the minds of the population I am discussing. Sadly, I suspect that many of them are so used to this sort of behavior that they don't even consciously realize what they are doing.

In summary, as I said before, I am most definitely not looking for this sort of behavior to correct, but when your own kid, friends, or class is being subjected to this, and you are responsible for their safety, it is utterly impossible to ignore obviously intentional harrassment.

Tom / PM

PS - Another test of their intent and competance is to suddenly put something in the path of an oncoming harrasser that would make THEM suffer consequences.

A recent example of this occurred on Sunday. I was waiting for my group at the top of a chair on a green run. I was as far off the trail as I could get when a teenaged boarder comes sideslipping towards me. He has a huge amount of room to avoid me, but from his course, it is obvious that the end of his board is going to touch the tips of my skis. I say, "WATCH IT!". He does nothing. I wait until he is about 2 feet away, suddenly lean forward, and jab a pole about a foot in front of my skis. If he just touched my skis, he would have not gone down, but with my pole now towards the center of his board's path, he clearly would fall, so with perfect precision, he turns his board sideways to slip on by. He gave me a dirty look and said nothing. This proved to me his competance and intent to harrass. I didn't bother chasing him down because this sort of low level harrassment is so common. This is but one of many examples of the sort of limits testing behavior these kids engage in. Unfortunately, they also engage in behaviors that can cause serious harm.
post #81 of 108
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kiwiski:
...When I say dont worry about everyone else I mean use your own common sense when it comes to your own safety, and let karma/natural selction take care of everyone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have skiing kids? Are you regularly responsible for the safety of others on the mountain? Have you ever skied with the patrol and had to deal with a serious (and probably preventable accident)?

While a live-and-let-live attitude may be desirable if no one is infringing on the rights and safety of anyone else, unless the answer to one of the above questions is "yes", I don't think you will have the experience to realize that you *must* be concerned about what is happening to your charges.

Tom / PM
post #82 of 108
Boy, I'm really glad I don't run into the problems(pun intended) that seemingly many of you are experiencing! I ski in the midwest for most of the season and out west (Jackson,Utah or Tahoe) for two to four weeks or whatever I can afford. Perhaps this puts me out of the hotzone that some of you are in the middle of. Some thoughts:

All green runs are "slow skiing" runs unless deserted at which point this discussion is moot. Beginners are the least predictable group in the world(in skiing and many other things) and an area considerably larger than their body must be considered off limits.

Why the hell are you spending time in these situations? Go where people aren't. Even when it's crowded you can usually find an area or run that is far less congested, unless of course the size of the resort doesn't permit it. At which point it's your choice to continue in that situation. A beer might begin calling my name loudly.

If I am in even moderate traffic and plan to stomp on my ski and suddenly start carving arcs after shortswinging my way down the fall line or simply decide to check out that amazing fir tree on the other side of the trail, guess what, I make damn sure to look behind me and around me to make sure I'm not going to cut someone off or cause a traffic problem. Whether the person I might cut off is going too fast or recklessly(my opinion), is immaterial, the base fact is I'm watching out for my own butt and not expecting all the learners and low ability people or simple idiots to miss me because of a code, or expectations that it won't happen cause it's not supposed to. To me this is no different than merging from another trail and looking uphill to make sure I don't cause an accident by my new actions. Not excusing any stupid or rude behavior, just trying to avoid myself or anyone else(including the person at fault) from getting hurt.

When it gets congested I open my ears and listen very closely to the sounds behind me and out of eye sight. This has saved me a couple rear enders through the years.

I am a firm believer in passes being revoked for many of the instances cited in this thread. How about a policy that has a Patrolman(God bless you people, you never get the credit you deserve) in normal clothes, skiing these areas and using a hand punch to mark the ticket ONCE(unless the incident is of too extreme a nature for a second chance) with a calm explanation of the problem and the code, and the knowledge that if another boneheaded manuever is noticed, your ticket is gone along with the rest of the day?

I ski fast, I take chances with myself and my abilities, this is one of the inalienable rights I have as a free person as long as I put no one else in danger. As well as one of the joys of this activity that I'm not willing to compromise on. There is a place and time for this attitude and type of skiing and if I'm in the right place doing this I don't want anyone limiting how I challenge myself. I have never run into any one except intentionally with friends, and with luck, never will. But I think this is the result of good avoidance techniques.

Part of the problem with young skiers and riders is the group mentality and peer pressure to be "rad, dude..that was extreme".
When you gape enough to barely be able to get down green and easy blue runs, your forum for impressing yer pals in this way is limited, and you become a risk to yourself and those around you. It's a part of being a cool teen and in this situation a real problem. Real education is a problem, since "laws are made to be broken" and the need to not be wrong in front of your group are such young, prevalent attitudes( I certainly had it at that age)that it's hard for many of them to respect or understand the importance of the code. Maybe if a couple of younger, respected riders did the "code awareness program" (whatever that may turn out to be) it would meet with more compliance?

The buzzing and harassment that Phy. Man refers to is horrible, that activity should be stomped on immediately. Ever seen insecure attention seeking boys do ignorant, mean things to one up their friends or make themselves feel superior no matter how ridiculous??, sounds awfully similar. I don't know if you can control it without booting people that engage in it til it's too expensive a 'prank'.

Don't know if any of this helps, I just don't want ski cops with speed guns telling me that 50mph is 7mph over the limit on the deserted groomed black that I was arcing on. Paranoid I know, but some responses here seem to feel that type of mentality is acceptable, I don't.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 12:06 PM: Message edited 1 time, by joel ]</font>
post #83 of 108
Hey, PM, I wasn't downplaying the conditions you face, I've seen them myself. I just wonder if it's possible for you to have fun in a situation like that. And if not, why bother?
post #84 of 108
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gonzostrike:
But I do wonder about the drift in our culture's attitude<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And so too do many others on this planet.

post #85 of 108
Back in my day children respected their elders eh gonz?

I am not doubting the problem I just disagree with gonz and pm’s solutions. Chasing down offenders and lecturing the safety code will at best be ineffective, and at worst it will backfire completely.

Without passing the buck, ski area management could do a lot more to reduce the collision rate on the mountains; restricting the number of lit tickets sold, designated fast lanes, restricting lift capacity. But all these things cost money so they will never be used to their full potential. So it is left to patrollers to lay down the law. But this can be ineffective if the patroller is not properly trained in how to deal with the situation.

The only time I have been lectured by a patroller I was cruising a 200 x 800 yard blue groomer with five other people on it, staying at least 100 yards away from any of them. A patroller standing at the side of the slope (where he couldn’t be seen from above) yelled at me to slow down, which I did. When I got back to the lift I found the guy had chased me down the mountain and he started the lecture.

Him: why were you going so fast?
Me: I dunno (actually I did know - because it was fun and I wasn’t endangering myself or others) After a minute of pleasant conversation I was calmed down and expected him to let me go. But he kept on going then started to get more abusive. I just stood there and took it. Several minutes later he decided to clip my ticket. By the time he let me go I was so fu(ked off at this a$$hole I wanted to hit him. I was so angry and full of adrenaline I had to go to the top of the mountain and bomb it to work it off.

If he had stopped after the first minute I would have been calmed down and gone on my way but because he decided to be an a$$hole his entire lecture backfired. If you want to talk to people about their behaviour you need their respect and to calm them down, not piss them off.

As for kids intimidating others, don’t yell at them, they want to piss you off. You have to be much more subtle. Ride a lift with them and suggest that they are way too good to stay on that bunny slope, then lead them to the top of the iciest, gnarliest slope on the mountain and ski off. By the time they get down they should be a little more humble.

BTW I want to propose a new safety code rule. *You must not lower the safety bar on lifts before your feet leave the ground* The number of times I have been hit on the head by paranoid parents lowering the safety bar before I have settled down is ridiculous.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 07:17 PM: Message edited 1 time, by kiwiski ]</font>
post #86 of 108
Back in my day children respected their elders eh gonz? /// I am not doubting the problem I just disagree with gonz and pm’s solutions. Chasing down offenders and lecturing the safety code will at best be ineffective, and at worst it will backfire completely.

How sad, Kiwi. You just made two completely erroneous assumptions about me. FIRST, that I am of a "grandpa" mindset. SECOND, that I have proposed ANY sort of solution. I have not.

FYI - I am most likely the youngest-minded 40-year-old you are likely to meet, except maybe for the members of the insipid rock band KISS. The notion that I am repeating the old saw of, "when I was your age we walked 20 miles through howling arctic winds and kneedeep snow in bare feet just to get to our unheated classroom where we read from tattered books and wrote on stone tablets with a chisel" is just about as off-base as you might be able to get.

Now, I am a bit of a retrogrouch when it comes to manners. I think that a certain amount of mutual respect is essential to a smoothly operating society. So, I get tweaked when I see people being rude. But I have yet to offer a solution, no matter what you might think to the contrary.

IMHO, the solution lies in eliminating our culture of blamelessness. Personal responsibility needs to revisit families around the USA. Parents need to teach self-reliance and not Robin Hood.

Before you go accusing me of some old stodgy mentality, let me tell you that I'm the first in line to play epater les bourgeoisie, so don't go getting all self-righteous about how conservative I am. Not everyone fits into your neat little cubbyholes.

Also, your 1.5 years spent in the USA do not give you adequate time to compare the decay of morality and self-reliance that I have witnessed in the 25 years since become a relatively aware teenager.

Keep trying to pin me down. When you get even remotely close, I'll give a nod to the referee and concede your pyrrhic victory.
post #87 of 108
Hey Conan, how was Sun Valley over Christmas... Think bout goint there sometime if i can get my moller sky car out of the garage...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arnold Schwarzenegger:

No, I believe ve should just terminate ze snowboard population. Ze gapers must be confined to ze green runs

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 08:22 PM: Message edited 4 times, by tolnep ]</font>
post #88 of 108
No need to get so defensive gonz. I just don't think that blaming skiing collisions on the decay of morality accomplishes very much. Just expressing my point of view that there is no magic bullet for mountain safety, and that some actions with the best intentions can backfire.
post #89 of 108
ha ha ha let's see how well I can teach someone to master the obvious.

here is the symbol for "are you with me (kiddingly)":

here is the symbol for "I'm just joking, in case you didn't see the sarcasm and irony":

and finally,

who spoke to the issue that a ski collision might happen because of a decayed morality?

KIWISKI, not gonzostrike.

My point was rooted in escapism and a lack of self-reliance and acceptance of blame.

How in the world did you miss that?


Defensive? Good God, man. As a former civil defense litigator, I must tell you, you have yet to see me even warm up on being defensive!!
post #90 of 108
Lars, I was just getting back into this thread and was about to ask you to follow up on your original post...and you already did. So, before this thread degenerates into another battle of "DID NOT! DID TOO!", let me pass along a few thoughts.

Sorry to hear that your season got off to such an emotional start. I really don't know how you patrollers or any other emergency response teams handle the emotional wear and tear that goes with the job. Made even more difficult in this case, knowing what that young girl will have to go through in rehab and the person responsible just rides away. I have a friend who patrolled for a while until, like you feel now, he pulled one to many injured kids off the hill and it soured him completely. He had to walk away from the sport entirely. I hope for your sake that you can still find that spark that brought you out to skiing. Just remembertaking down those chutes at Squaw on last year's Bear's trip, and those big grin's on your face.

Are you making a big deal out of nothing? I don't think so. This is more than just a job to you. You, like all of us here, have a passion for this sport. "The sport is changing, the people are changing, the equipment is changing." But most especially the people are changing. In an era when a cross of roller derby and downhill racing is considered a sport, parading your perversions to a talk-show host passes for psychotherapy, and schools don't have enough money to educate our children while $75M athletes "play when I want to play", can it be much of a surprise that our beloved ski hills reflect some of that confusion?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 09:26 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Tag ]</font>
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