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Ripping Teachers... OK? - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Sorry, Rusty. to you.
post #62 of 86
If they don't rip I am requesting a new one.
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
...I just think it would be nice to see more of that inspirational side, and I'm concerned that perhaps some instructors dial it back too far... such that higher level skiers don't see the value/benefit.

I know I was squarely there just three years ago!
Could this boil down to being situational, Steve?

What does Terry think?

In your original post you reference an experience with Bob & Faisal in the spring. I've lived that same (stuff my hat in my jacket quickly and get on with it to keep up) exact skiing with Bob. I say what a blast, show me that dynamic skiing so I can try to reach for it! Will everyone?

I see a lot of great responses to your question! Seems like it would be difficult to generally say one way or the other; rather, the carrot needs to be extended out appropriately as the situation demands.
post #64 of 86
Thread Starter 
It sure looks like it, doesn't it, Chris? I'll ask Terry and let you know...
post #65 of 86
I love to watch great skiing. Don't most of us enjoy watching skiers from the lift and feel inspired by the ones that really look good? I agree that instructors should model the movements they are trying to teach, but if they are sking from point A to point B, to get a vantage point for watching the class or moving along to reach another lift/area, I think the instructor should "show us how its really done". I love to watch the best skiers on the mountain. For me, inspiration is priceless and should be part of the lesson.
post #66 of 86
ride - read my example of the ex-WC downhill racer in Italy.... If anyone thinks they would learn ANYTHING other than how much further away those athletes are from the recreational skiing level from watching him ski as he really can then I think they have bats in the belfry! Also it would be quite irresponsible for him to do that on an open run!

On one of the runs we were on - I am very sure that he would not need to turn... while going for a walk in the park he took only 2 turns to get where he wanted to be... on the steepest run we skied he very nicely did short turns to set my mind on the rhythm of the turns.... if he had taken off i would have been stuck there quivering... Why?I had skied that run many times and new I could ski it easily and competently... BUT I did not need to see a racer going mach schnell down that run - and again it would have been dangerous and irresponsible...
post #67 of 86
Thread Starter 
Apples and oranges, disski!

No one here is suggesting that the instructors simply ski as fast as they can in any given situation. Rather, that they demonstrate their highest level of skill in the process of skiing from one place to another, even when demonstrating something (whenever possible) and especially when moving from place to place. In your example, if he skied down a hundred meters or so to stop to watch you pass, why shouldn't he ski with all his skill (even if slower for safety and your preference)? Why make boring dynamic parallel turns just because he's teaching?

That's my question. Why would students want their instructors to dial back their skiing? Demonstrations aside, of course.

...and any skier who would endanger himself or other skiers by skiing too fast for the situation ("dangerous and irresponsible") is a fool and not what we're discussing here. :
post #68 of 86
but you did not ask about high performance turns... you asked them to "rip"

ALL of this guy's skill would be getting there UBER fast... he has only just ceased racing WC Downhill... THAT is his top skill set (he even told me how sucky his short turns were... then again a certain Mr Rocca is his childhood friend and hence I would guess comparitor)

I can assure you his "walk in the park" skiing would leave you standing still - it is FAST... just you know he is not trying that hard...
post #69 of 86
and NONE of his turns ever looked at all boring.... even when in full demo mode....

Not all ski instructors ski like PSIA ones!
post #70 of 86
re the definition of rip

Quote:
“Well,” I said, “is your goal to have a great hike up, but a slower ski down? Or to have a slower hike up but a ripping ski down?
from here
http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...258&highlight=

by a Kristen Ulmer
post #71 of 86
Thread Starter 
I don't even understand what your point is at this point. :

I defined "rip" earlier in this thread. In the US, at least, it has many meanings. In skiing, it doesn't mean "ski as fast as possible." It tends to mean to ski exceptionally well with very high skill.

BTW, it can also mean "to tear into with abandon" as in what we would call flaming on the Internet. I didn't mean that, either.

My question is from the perspective of a student and an observer, not an instructor. I like to ski in groups in which the instructor/clinic leader/coach is demonstrating very high level skiing when s/he isn't demonstrating a particular drill or movement. I wanted to know if I'm unique in that, since I have seen a large number of instructors (examples given earlier) who clearly dial it way back when they are in a lesson and I'd like to understand if there is a good reason for that in terms of students' perceptions and desires. That was the sole purpose of this question and thread.
post #72 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
Not all ski instructors ski like PSIA ones!
And none of the highest level PSIA instructors that I've skied with ski "PSIA" when they are out "just skiing". That's one of my points in this thread! Why do they feel they have to "ski PSIA turns" as one of the PSIA-RM Examiners says? Do the students demand it?
post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
. I wanted to know if I'm unique in that, since I have seen a large number of instructors (examples given earlier) who clearly dial it way back when they are in a lesson and I'd like to understand if there is a good reason for that in terms of students' perceptions and desires. That was the sole purpose of this question and thread.
yeah
well you got your answers and then felt that simply rubbishing the answers that did not fit your anticipated response was a better thing than trying to understand what was being said...

Skidude got it.... wonder what the difference is between you and him?
Which instructor would I prefer to ski with if I had the choice?
I'm taking Rick, Ric B, etc
You can have your opinion I have a firm belief in where the high level instruction lies in this thread.... sorry you cannot understand it
post #74 of 86
Ah, ... Steve .... ah ummm,

Rip is still open to multiple interpretations. Despite your definition, I'd still call Disski's version ripping. But it does not matter, the main reason why it's not done is because it's generally not an effective means of teaching.

Now if you came to me and asked me to rip for a lesson, I'd be tempted to give you your money back just for asking (sometimes I work so hard I'd pay for a free run). And for Heaven's sake, do NOT ask Rogan to rip unless you have a pacemaker handy. Asking him to rip is like feeding steak to a Doberman. Speaking of which, he is available at HEAVENly for regular off the rack private lessons. Another guy I'd like to mention here is Vic Gerdin. I was with him at Snowbird for a week when he left our group with strict instructions to go around while he explored some untracked that we'd been moaning about for days (that actually was wicked awful sun baked goop). Of course I followed him without him seeing me until it was too late. As you've probably suspected, it was well worth the price of admission. I've also had the dubious pleasure of spending a one on one Friday afternoon end of PSIA-E Pro Jam session with Bruno Gubetta. I would have asked him to rip harder except that I could not yell loud enough for him to hear me. He did wait for me at the lift though. At the time I thought I learned everything I was going to learn after his first 3 turns. In hindsight, the full afternoon of punishment built character. The main point here is that all you have to do is ask. The rippers are out there.
post #75 of 86
sorry rusty - I left you out... the list was not exclusive... just I meant those that were understanding what I was babbling about
post #76 of 86
I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize now if I'm restating what others have said already. I think the answer to this question is a very fine line. There are a number of components. Deifnitely social grace is a factor. But so is the ability to inspire. And so is the importance of remaining focused on the task at hand. I have spent all day giving a private lesson to a family and near the end they asked me if I would show them how I ski down this one section. So I made about 10 turns, nothing too fancy or fast, just 10 nice short radius slalom style turns, and they were awestruck. I had spent that whole day and the day before teaching them how to ski at their level. I do think this 10 turn demo was cool because their two boys were both grinning ear to ear and imagining themselves in the future and I think I gave them some inspiration. But note, that it was not done in a show-off manner. It was NOWHERE EVEN CLOSE to the top of my skiing ability or what I could call "ripping", and I only did it once near the end of a 2 day private and really only because they asked.

If a student sees me ski away at the end of a lesson I think that can be a graceful opportunity to show them what is possible down the road.

The truth is that at least for me, 90% of the skiers I am teaching are so far below my own level, that showing them how I rip is absolutely pointless for the lesson. They can watch the true masters on Warren Miller if they want to be inspired. Showing them solid skiing that is more within their reachable future is far more applicable and useful to them I think.

As far as gaining their confidence, I think this is easily attained by teaching them well and helping them get results. As they themselves get results from your teaching, they will respect you and trust you as a teacher.

Now all that being said. If I am teaching boys between about 11-16, then you gotta rip sometimes, because that will truly inspire them. Gotta teach and give them attainable goals too, but have to constantly be showing them that they haven't reached the top yet and there is more to aspire to. Boys in that age range..if they have been skiing awhile tend to think they are real badasses and don't need to be told how to improve.

I think the important point for us is this. If were are trutly honest with ourselves and always ask the question "Am I showing off or do they really need to see this?"....and we ponder that question objectively and keep our objectives in perspective...I think there can be opportunities to rip it up. However, I also think its extremely inappropriate for an instructor to reach beyond their own abilities for the sake of ripping it up. skiing fast or getting big air is not good skiing. Its daring skiing. That's great on your own, but when you're teaching a class, every single thing you do should always exemplify great skiing even if it means holding yourself back a tiny bit to ensure you are showing mastery. Don't ski beyond your own, honest level, whatever it happens to be.
post #77 of 86
Welcome borntoski

you may want to give yourself a signature with your quals in it (or at least an indication you are an instructor/coach etc)
post #78 of 86
As a student who takes a lesson once or twice a season I'd love to see my instructor ski to the best of his or her ability all the time. For me, it's inspirational and motivates me to try to be a better skier. It sets a goal for me. It would also challenge me to try to keep up and to try to emulate my instructor.

I can understand for an intermediate or lower (especially with a more pessimistic personality type) seeing an instructor ski at a his or her top ability could be intimidating or demoralizing. But, I think it's very student dependent. A good instructor should be able to read this and determine when it is appropriate to rip it up.

I haven't done this in any of my previous lessons but I think towards the middle or end of my next lesson I'm going to ask my instructor to just forget the lesson for a few runs and see if we can just free ski together as though he or she were skiing on his or her day off of instructing. As a mid-level 8 skier, I'd like to see how I stack up to a Level II or Level III cert. For the instructors, how willing would you be if a student like me made this request?
post #79 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
I haven't done this in any of my previous lessons but I think towards the middle or end of my next lesson I'm going to ask my instructor to just forget the lesson for a few runs and see if we can just free ski together as though he or she were skiing on his or her day off of instructing. As a mid-level 8 skier, I'd like to see how I stack up to a Level II or Level III cert. For the instructors, how willing would you be if a student like me made this request?
C'mon out! Let's go!
post #80 of 86
Can I come to?

Ripping (as I ski - at a reduced skill level to better skiers) on the tails of an instructor (at a safe distance and appropriate speed while obeying all the relevant requirements of the skier responsibility code) is great fun (which is why I ski).
Toward the end of a lesson (i.e. over half way through, but not asking the instructor to go beyond the time allocated) doing a couple of runs (this may be one run, or several, the exact number is not tightly defined) of "let's work on nothing but having fun - follow me" (these may not be the exact words used, but this is the sentiment) is great in my book (it may not work for everyone).

(I realise the above is full of parentheses which makes it difficult to read the flow of the post, but I don't want to be mis-interpreted)
post #81 of 86
I've got a theory that, if you can't let it out with a big fat grin on your face, and rip it up, I don't want you to instruct me.

Its supposed to be F U N!
post #82 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post

I haven't done this in any of my previous lessons but I think towards the middle or end of my next lesson I'm going to ask my instructor to just forget the lesson for a few runs and see if we can just free ski together as though he or she were skiing on his or her day off of instructing. As a mid-level 8 skier, I'd like to see how I stack up to a Level II or Level III cert. For the instructors, how willing would you be if a student like me made this request?
I know every instructor would love to do this but any smart instructor may dial it up a notch but will hold back to what needs to be a perceived safe speed and terrain selection. There are just too many liability issues involved. Sad but true.
post #83 of 86
I just sort of skimmed through this thread. I've been away from the net lately, because I was teaching a 3 day class (unfortunately, not the least bit skiing related).

What's been implied here a couple of time, but I didn't see mentioned outright, is that, like everything else in a lesson, it needs to depend on the student! If you're teaching a level 3 class, trying to get them to make open parallel turns, and you've got 90 minutes to impart some info on them, and do a few demos, you're not going to be ripping the place up. You're not even going to be on terrain that would allow for it. Likewise, if you're teaching a bunch of 50 something housewives that are conservative level 6-7 skiers, you'll probably just be perceived as showing off, and you'll lose their respect.

Sometimes, even if I'm giving a clinic to other instructors, I'm not going to go ripping around our little 900 foot hill (is it even really possible?). A lot of times, because of our lesson durations, if you go and rip up a run, you're just wasting your student's time.

But as BornToSki said, if you've got testosterone laden adolescent boys who are looking for an adreniline rush, it may be the perfect thing for the lesson.

It's all about the student and the lesson. If it motivates them and has a positive outcome ofr them, then yes, go for it. If not, save it until the lesson is over. Learn to read your students verbal and non-verbal cues. What motivates them, etc.
post #84 of 86
what johnH said. However, that said, personally, i think it's great to have an instructor 'rip it up' . especially for someone who may tend to the conservative. Having to keep up at the risk of being left behind, can help a complacent skier dial it up a notch or two. I know it has worked for me as a student. but obviously not so appropriate in a lower level class. Still, even then, skiing not at max capacity of instructor but a bit beyond the students comfort zone can be inspiring. Truly, i think a lot has to do with instructor intent. most people are savy enough to be able to tell when it's in fun and to inject joy and when it's ego driven.
post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom View Post
Still, even then, skiing not at max capacity of instructor but a bit beyond the students comfort zone can be inspiring. .
This is it... skiing at a level beyond the students comfort zone can be useful...
Skiing at max capacity of instructor is usually way beyond that requirement .... this is what we have when the instructor versus the student is ripping....
post #86 of 86
Disski, I don' t participate in the tech forums much, but recently I noticed that you post most of the time in the tech forums. You seem to be emphatic about your knowledge but I noticed that you haven't posted your credentials
What are your credentials? I'm very interested in your teaching method
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