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skiing (not snowboarding) in New England - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vt Skier View Post
Looks like we're getting this thread in early this year.
The usual skier/boarder barbs and inherent dislike some skiers have for boarders attitudes and their "posses" mean nothing to me. I have no issue with boarders as a group, or sharing the mountain with them - in reasonable numbers.

To me, it's about not about groups or styles.

It's about not getting whacked on the hill. Period.

When people use the hill in a different way, as boarders so, with only 65% field of vision, in concentrations of 70% or more, and most being teeners (high testosterone), you encounter an experience you've likely not tasted.

Mechanical Fact: Skiers are bi-optical heading down the hill. Boarders are mono-optical - a least 1/3 field of vision not available as they descend. This is an easy situation to adjust to in smaller numbers. Not so here.

I know skiers more tolerant, and empathetic than me, who've given-up on Baker for this reason. I've yet to hear a skier say they enjoy our "extreme version" of boarder integration.

If you can do it, and emerge unaffected, you have my admiration.

If you haven't tried this flavor of the experience, how can you know what it's like, or whats being referred to?
post #32 of 57
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Try riding a 70% boarder mountain with mono-optical vision, then tell us how bad the SKIERS have it!
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Try riding a 70% boarder mountain with mono-optical vision, then tell us how bad the SKIERS have it!
Valid point. I've thought - "Why don't they hit each other more often?". Why do skiers feel vulnerable (everyone I know does)?

The only conclusion I can come to is: sound.

That unique "crunching" sound that emanates from snowboards must be 5 to 10 times louder than noise skies make. Boards are inherently much louder on the snow.

My guess is that boarders hear each other long before the point of collision - even if they're not aware of it.

With skies, there's no "early warning system". Too quiet.

Hence: "Oooh man, sorry dude. You okay?"

They're not bad people. It's just unnerving.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
...With skies, there's no "early warning system". Too quiet.

Hence: "Oooh man, sorry dude. You okay?"

They're not bad people. It's just unnerving.
They can't hear you approaching from behind? Is that the problem? You fail to pass safely, then THEY apologize?
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
They can't hear you approaching from behind? Is that the problem? You fail to pass safely, then THEY apologize?
How do you "pass safely"? Do you yell at every one while you're in full-motion? These aren't cat trails.

Most commonly, they drift into you on their blind-side. Sometimes you have time to escape, sometimes you don't.

I've never snowboarded, but if I had a blind-side, I'd make an extra effort to ensure I wasn't going to hit anyone when moving - like changing lanes in a car.

Problem is, there are no turn-signals, and many don't appear to make an effort.

Part of this is also due to the overwhelming youth of these kids (we have 3 colleges in our small town). I suspect older boarders are more aware of their surroundings, and more careful.

I also ski frequently at Whistler, which has a kajillion boarders. There, it's a ZERO problem. The percentage of boarders is reasonable, and there's lots of space.
post #36 of 57
Figure out how to overtake others without hitting them or follow from a safe distance or stay off the slopes.
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ct55 View Post
In defense of MRG - I was going over their flyer and I think under 6 ski for free. So if they're really young ....

(I want to say they have some deals under 12 too but couldn't find that one).
Heres the deal: kids under 12 get a free seasons pass, good any day of the week if you purchase any seasons pass or even the Mad Card deal (3 days of skiing any time for $119.00.) For the last few years I would buy the midweek pass and get both my kids free seasons passes, this year I decided to just get the Mad Card and I am able to get the free kids pass for both of my children under age 12. the Mad Card also lets you buy a reduced ticket on the day you are using it for someone else, I think $25.00 off full price, not certain on that part for weekends. You must buy before Oct. 15th and register for the free kids passes. Check out their web site Madriverglen.com for more info. The novice (green circle trails) Birdland section is a real nice friendly uncrowded set of trails, you do have to access it by the double chair at bottom of mountain and then ski a green circle winding down the mountain to get over to that area.
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Figure out how to overtake others without hitting them or follow from a safe distance or stay off the slopes.
Ahh, so wise! We are indeed blessed by your brilliance.

Perhaps you'd like to come to Baker and give clinics?

Perhaps we could learn from you via on-line symposiums, so you'd never actually have to set foot on the mountain.
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
I've yet to hear a skier say they enjoy our "extreme version" of boarder integration.
With 52 days on Mt. Baker last season and 14 seasons like that before, I can say I not only have no problems with snowboarders, but quite enjoy skiing with them. I wouldn't change that aspect of Mt. Baker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Why do skiers feel vulnerable (everyone I know does)?
I don't. Maybe you're running with the wrong crowd?
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
With 52 days on Mt. Baker last season and 14 seasons like that before, I can say I not only have no problems with snowboarders, but quite enjoy skiing with them. I wouldn't change that aspect of Mt. Baker.
You're a better man than me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
Maybe you're running with the wrong crowd?
Must be.
post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
Oh bullpuckey, some mountains are loaded with folks while some have much fewer, some much steeper terrain some more flat, some have more idiots than others too (idiots are drawn by reputation which is espoused by other idiots ), some have advanced terrain which crosses beginner terrain where others have the two completely separated, to deny this is unhelpful.
I was going to say something like that.

I was also going to suggest that he not take them to Killington.

Mad River's Birdland is perfect learning terrain. The ski school there is great. However, you should do your home work before you choose MRG. It's not a resort. It's not the kind of mountain everyone would like to ski. It's basic in many ways.

You'll see lots of kids in programs. People are friendly. The wealthy skiers are there but you can't really tell. You may ask yourself, what are we doing here.
post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Ahh, so wise! We are indeed blessed by your brilliance.

Perhaps you'd like to come to Baker and give clinics?

Perhaps we could learn from you via on-line symposiums, so you'd never actually have to set foot on the mountain.
I don't feel the derisive personal attacks are necessary. My simple advise was based on the skier's responsibility code as I understand it.

Is making turns really like changing lanes in a car? Or is it the expected, normal way we all descend the slope? Should we have to make sure no one is coming from behind before turning?

An unskilled rider who doen't link turns smoothly, but mostly goes straight, will always turn to his heel side (blind side) to scrub speed, toe side to regain the fall line. Knowing this may help you ski responsibly.
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Mechanical Fact: Skiers are bi-optical heading down the hill. Boarders are mono-optical - a least 1/3 field of vision not available as they descend.
That's a myth popularized by people who have never snowboarded.

I have the same exact field of vision on my snowboard as when I am skiing - 360 degrees. And that's a "mechanical" fact.

Even though my body faces right (I ride regular), my head faces forward. By turning my shoulders and upper body, I can look left a bit more than 90 degrees - enough to see anyone riding next to me or slightly behind.

Of course I can easily see people to the right of me. And when I need to see what is behind - even behind to the left - I just rotate my shoulders/head to the right, giving me a view that includes up to 270 degrees from the actual direction I am riding.

None of this requires excessive stretching or even the flexibility of a young person. (I am an "almost" middle age snowboarder and skier.)

If someone riding or skiing doesn't bother to look out for other people, it's their fault, not the equipment they are using.
post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
How do you "pass safely"? Do you yell at every one while you're in full-motion? These aren't cat trails.

Most commonly, they drift into you on their blind-side. Sometimes you have time to escape, sometimes you don't.

I've never snowboarded, but if I had a blind-side, I'd make an extra effort to ensure I wasn't going to hit anyone when moving - like changing lanes in a car.

Problem is, there are no turn-signals, and many don't appear to make an effort.

[snip]
You are skiing out of control if you are getting pegged by boarders as you overtake them. They are downhill, they have the right of way. Simple, end of story. If you have trouble with their turn shapes, either ski slower or learn better control of your own edges. Some riders will have a rounder turn shape than some skiers, it shoudn't be that way in an age of SuperShapes but it is becuase lots of people either can't or won't ski arc to arc regardless of their equipment. Downhill riders and skiers who have the gall to actually carve a round turn still have the right of way.

Learn the code.
post #45 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
You are skiing out of control if you are getting pegged by boarders as you overtake them. They are downhill, they have the right of way. Simple, end of story. If you have trouble with their turn shapes, either ski slower or learn better control of your own edges. Some riders will have a rounder turn shape than some skiers, it shoudn't be that way in an age of SuperShapes but it is becuase lots of people either can't or won't ski arc to arc regardless of their equipment. Downhill riders and skiers who have the gall to actually carve a round turn still have the right of way.

Learn the code.
Fully disagreed!

They can't, or don't look. If they twisted their head, it may not be "mechanical", but many don't. They look ahead, or toe-side.

You're describing your reality, which is lovely. It's not mine. Your experience of boarder frequency makes for a different reality. Try it here!

The "code" only works if the people you're on the hill with have 180 degree vision to the front. The person who swipes you is the guy beside you, or the guy behind you, NOT the guy in front. The person behind or beside is the one who needs frontal vision, and needs to observe the "code".

Boarders have 180 degree vision, but it's from another angle - how can it NOT be?

I don't like skiing with throngs of boarders, and never will.

I wonder if you could ski with the density of boarders we contend with, and be as okay about it as Harry Morgan.

I have a different point of view from Harry, but I respect his.

He's skied here, and has a basis for his comments. You haven't, and don't.
post #46 of 57
You were earlier referring to not being able to pass riders safely and complaining about their lack of turn signals. That indicates a problem with your skiing not their riding. If you've been hit by a rider from behind, yes, they were clearly the person at fault. You need to decide which problem is the one you're encountering.

Regarding riders' field of vision, as Eldo has noted already we can actually turn our necks. Hard to believe but true. And again, for someone uphill of us who we may not see when starting a heelside turn, who has the right of way?
post #47 of 57
Definitely Bretton Woods. There are no real steeps there, and the lift tickets are expensive ... as a result the fast skiers I ski with tend to go there only if there's no snow anywhere else except at Bretton Woods. So ... no fast skiers blasting by. I think of BW as a "luxury" intermediate place - it's always immaculately groomed; it's owned by the same folks that bring you the Mount Washington Hotel; there are hairdryers in the women's bathrooms, no less.

They blow snow early and consistently, so you'll find them open early season till Mother's Day. On holidays there are lots of families boarding nearby and doing a week there, so there will be children at those times, but the place is spread out and one can get away from the crowds during the week easily.

Before sending your new-to-skiing daughter-in-law to Mad River Glen, check out its website. It has a modest beginner/intermediate area that is groomed, but MRG's claim to fame is its ungroomed mogul runs. There may be no boarders there, but it's probably to save the moguls from getting cut up. Most of the mountain is gnarly.
post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
There may be no boarders there, but it's probably to save the moguls from getting cut up. Most of the mountain is gnarly.
The reason MRG prohibits boarders is because they would regularly derail the cable on the single chair when they were getting off. The then-owners were some of the first anywhere to allow boarders, but due to the cable-deraillment issues, boarders were banned from the single only. Some boarders apparently confronted the then-owner in a less-then-friendly manner and her response was to ban them entirely.

MRG has since become a co-op, and the shareholders might have different reasons for banning boarders, but the original reason was mechanical.
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Boarders have 180 degree vision, but it's from another angle - how can it NOT be?

I don't like skiing with throngs of boarders, and never will.
...
Did you even read my post?

There is no difference between what a snowboarder can see and what a skier can see while on the slopes. I know this for a fact, while you continue to make assumptions you pulled out of thin air.

Snowboards are not the issue. The responsibility of each person on the slopes to respect the rights of others IS the issue.

Next time you complain, replace the word "snowboarders" with the real problem, "people who don't look out for others on the slopes."

(But nothing I say is likely to change your prejudice. So that ends my sudden flood of posts on Epic.)
post #50 of 57
People who don't swivel their heads 180ยบ from their direction of travel so they can know that a swift silent skier with control issues is bearing down on them.
post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldo View Post
There is no difference between what a snowboarder can see and what a skier can see while on the slopes. I know this for a fact, while you continue to make assumptions you pulled out of thin air.

Snowboards are not the issue. The responsibility of each person on the slopes to respect the rights of others IS the issue.
Respecting the rights of each other is always an issue. Agreed. But, it's not the only issue.

There have been endless threads on this forum regarding snowboarders. Many have to do with attitudes, the "posse" effect, and general age issues - all a waste of time.

About a zillion, however, are about snowboarder "vision" issues.

Was everyone who mentioned this issue intolerant and mean-spirited?

I've skied at Baker and Brighton (both heavy with Boarders), and at Alta and Deer Valley (none).

I feel no negativity towards snowboarders. But, I know what hits me on the hill and what doesn't. I'll take Alta and Deer Valley.

We'll never agree, so I'm not trying to convince you. I understand that most people chiming in here are boarders (partially or fully) and feel any lack of love for sliding with boarders is prejudice. Fair enough.

Regardless of your indignation or sense of persecution, my experience is my reality.

Most comments here haven't acknowledged that sliding with a 70% to 80% boarder population isn't your grandmother's ski hill.

A slightly different reality. Perhaps one to your liking.
post #52 of 57
You're my grandfather, and you and I are the same age!

I'd rather ski at Alta or any area that excludes half of the sliding population, of course. It's less crowded that way. I'd rather ride at a mountain that excludes skiers, where is that hill?
post #53 of 57
Just to dispel the myth. I don't board, never have, never will, don't even ski with any, and I couldn't disagree more with everything you've been saying Strato.
post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman829 View Post
Just to dispel the myth. I don't board, never have, never will, don't even ski with any, and I couldn't disagree more with everything you've been saying Strato.
There's no "myth".

Your opinions are valid, because they're based upon your experience. I regard mine similarly.

I read and listen to other's points of view. In this case, nothing's that's been said mitigates my experience.

I don't find compelling debate in most of what's been written. Harry Morgan's post is credible, because he's skied here. Therefore his points intrigue me - despite my opposite experience.

If you and I disagree, it doesn't matter a whit.

I don't seek your agreement, or anyone's.
post #55 of 57
Skiing with snowboarders does pose a major problem with many skiers I know. Many of my friends have either been hit by them or have had many close calls. We choose to wait till these children make their way down the hill and hope for an opening.

There really is no doubt in my mind that many snowboarders are clueless and have no respect for other people on the trail. It just so happens that most of these people I have seen are young kids trying to be cool and show off to their friends while they endanger other people.

It kind of like those idiots drinking beers while going up the lift. Then after these wonderful members of society finish their beers they proceed to toss the can, littering the trail. How wonderful! Not to mention these people are now skiing with you while drunk.

So to conclude, I do wish there was a place in NE that one could go and not worry about these issues.
post #56 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDog View Post

There really is no doubt in my mind that many snowboarders are clueless and have no respect for other people on the trail. It just so happens that most of these people I have seen are young kids trying to be cool and show off to their friends while they endanger other people.
most people dont give a damn about other people. Its not snowboarders, it not park rats, its not the young or the old. It just people dude. It doesnt matter where your at generally people only care about themselves.
post #57 of 57
Most of my encounters have been with the young snowboarder type but you are correct.

Either way, it's very sad and they are very dangerous to others.
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