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Arcing into the fall line

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
In the PSIA Skills Concept paper and video that the PSIA Alpine Team created last year, one of the ideas in edging that they discuss is edging early in the turn so that you "arc into the fall line, not just out of it." I think that this visual concept is strong and useful (especially on the video, where the Team skiers put a real punctuation to the concept). "Allow the skis tips to pull you into the turn."

What are the thoughts and phrases that strike you when you consider using the skis early in the turn to draw you into the arc?
post #2 of 27
I think the international sound for early edge hookup is "doink".




-nerd
post #3 of 27
I like to tell racers to make the skis "seek the fall line" instead of "arcing into it". While it is true that it is the skis who pull you into the turn (and force you to counter the forces intiated by them carving), you should still be the one in charge. Philosophical difference, yes, but somwhat of importance when the skiing activity you teach should be undertaken with an active mindset at all times.

So, in my mind,
passive = letting the skis doing something for you
active = working with the ski
post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
So, BillyRay, "Arc the skis into the fall line" is a possible tweak on it?
post #5 of 27
I would say so because it conveys the idea of working WITH the skis instead of letting it do the work ("let yourself be pulled by the tips into the turn") or, heaven forbids, working against the ski ("push it in the fall line").

I'm always very careful about what I say to kids: they tend to
a) not understand what I mean
b) Do literally what I said to do, wich can lead to communication problems or assumptions that are very hard to correct afterwards.


But I really like where they are going with this. A lot of people do not understand that every move we do when skiing is to counteract the forces that the ski/slope/speed/terrain combination creates, wich is a misconception that leads to questions such as "how to get more lateral" that would be better answered with "how to create greater angles", "how to make my transition more efficient", "how to efficiently pressure my edges", etc. No offense intended at all to whoever started the topic on lateral movement, it was a very valid and interesting question.
post #6 of 27
For me Steve I think of the phrase, "the finish of one turn is the start of the next turn".

Whether I'm working on this personaly or with my students I work with the release. I need to manage this release so that I have options and economy in my movements as I move across the skis and onto my new edges. Later, RicB.
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
I just checked the video version, and the words on this concept are, "The positive engagement of the skis' tips should draw you into the turn versus displacing the tails to start the turn." Then, Nelson says, "Watch the front end of Deb's ski and how it pulls her into the fall line." This second quote is where I got the idea for my initial post, I think.

The next concept sentence in the video is, "Engaging the ski early in the turn allows us to arc into the apex versus just arcing away from it."

Nelson later encourages us to watch the snow come off the ski way up early in the turn to see just how much the edges are engaged.
post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
"Watch the front end of Deb's ski and how it pulls her into the fall line."
Does'nt this indicate that she is riding the skiis and her CM is not freely entering the turn? The direction of her CM and direction of her skis is the same? (Have not seen the video, just wondering. It's an open parallel demonstration?)
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Does'nt this indicate that she is riding the skiis and her CM is not freely entering the turn? The direction of her CM and direction of her skis is the same? (Have not seen the video, just wondering. It's an open parallel demonstration?)
No, it's a carved turn, medium radius, I would say. She is onto her new edges right after the transition, and up on fairly high edges quite quickly. As a result, her skis start to decamber and arc towards the fall line when she is actually riding both downhill edges.

If the turn is a C, she is on her new edges from the top of that C through to the bottom when she moves to the new edges.

The CoM moves similarly to the skis (see the Directional Movements threads, both here and in the Supporter Technical Discussions forum), with the skis taking a wider arc, of course.

I would actually say that her CoM moves into the new turn at the edge change, and the skis effectively "catch up" to her and "catch" her.
post #10 of 27
I should also add accuracy of movements too. Arcing the skis throughout the turn, definetly requires accuracy. later, Ricb.
post #11 of 27
I like "slice" into the turn myself.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I would actually say that her CoM moves into the new turn at the edge change, and the skis effectively "catch up" to her and "catch" her.
Then is the remark about the skiis "pulling her" into the turn appropriate?
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Then is the remark about the skiis "pulling her" into the turn appropriate?
I guess it depends on your interpretation. I think that the skis arcing into the fall line effectively do that. Instead of "manually" redirecting them into the fall line, we get 'em on edge and allow them to arc into the fall line.

I guess it depends on what "pulling her" means to you. If I take it literally, I see what you mean. But, for me, the description worked.
post #14 of 27
We make movements that create forces, we make movements to manage the foces, and we make movements to release the forces so we can start all over again in the other direction. I don't agree with the idea that all movements are to counteract forces. All forces have an opposite an equal reaction for sure, but there are two sides to this coin. To me the ability to create, mothers the ability to counteract and manage "effectively and efficently".

I want to be on the proactive side of the coin rather than the reactive side. When I'm accurate in creating the forces then the balance and counteracting are built in. Imbalances only feel threatening when I'm not responsible in creating them. Gravity is the only given. Centrifugal and centripetal forces I want to be the conductor of. I want to lead the symphony. Just my way of looking at it. Later, RicB.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
How do we initiate changes to that line? With miniscule movements that take us only *slightly* out of balance.
It's not necessary to be out of balance whatsoever to alter line. Redistribution of fore and aft pressure can do it.

All edge changes or changes to edge angle won't make you out of balance either -- railroad track turns for example.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
What are the thoughts and phrases that strike you when you consider using the skis early in the turn to draw you into the arc?
A long traditional term for a one carved turn transitioning into the a new carved turn, with no inclusion of pre-carve redirection during the transition, is:

ARC TO ARC.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
What are the thoughts and phrases that strike you when you consider using the skis early in the turn to draw you into the arc?
Roll-em over and ride-em!
post #18 of 27
One phrase I have heard regarding this early phase of the turn is "getting inverted". It quite neatly describes the way your feet are uphill of you and your COM is diving down the hill.
post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
In the PSIA Skills Concept paper and video that the PSIA Alpine Team created last year, one of the ideas in edging that they discuss is edging early in the turn so that you "arc into the fall line, not just out of it." I think that this visual concept is strong and useful (especially on the video, where the Team skiers put a real punctuation to the concept). "Allow the skis tips to pull you into the turn."

What are the thoughts and phrases that strike you when you consider using the skis early in the turn to draw you into the arc?
I'm having a difficult time understanding how the various comments about the adduction and abduction and so on lead to a cue for using the skis early to ride them into the turn.

The deeply technical discussions are interesting, but the real question is how we apply this on-snow. What are the sensations? What are the mental movement cues that get us where we want to go?
post #20 of 27

Arcing

Arcing early into the Fall Line.

Please believe me, I am sincere. Myself and probably a lot of other bears want to read, understand and digest these technique threads. HOWEVER, as a Non-Engineering enity I can only read and/or want to understand this jargon for just a little while. As an example, this thread on technique started out with a rather easy question and quickly fell into an abyss of technical postulation. When I turn do I think abductor - adductor, God i HOPE not. These techy exchanges at times enter into a realm in space that I'm sure most Bearns don't understand and don't really want too. I'm not saying you should do this for your own inner needs but couldn't once in awhile talk in understandable skier talk.

Please try to understand, I am not trying to stop your techy fun just commenting for some of use mere mortals out here on Epic that don't think like a slide rule (ol guy).

How about? TILT BEFORE YOU TURN - THEN BE PATIENT

You will turn/arc/carve early and through the fall line.

Eeks could it me that simple

Bolton you are probably a great skier, I hope as good
as your astro-physics degree.
post #21 of 27
Thread Starter 
I have just split out the more detailed technical discussion into this thread. As Pete No. Idaho suggests, let's keep this one simple. Thanks.

(PS I also cleaned up some of the posts asking for format editing in other posts, since I think that got handled along the way. Thanks.)
post #22 of 27

Arcing

SSH. thanks for understanding this point of view. I am really hesitant to "step on some toes" but sincerely thought this was pretty far out except for the very technical brain. Just a view from the little guy.
post #23 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
SSH. thanks for understanding this point of view. I am really hesitant to "step on some toes" but sincerely thought this was pretty far out except for the very technical brain. Just a view from the little guy.
No problem; I agree 100%. That's what I meant by this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I'm having a difficult time understanding how the various comments about the adduction and abduction and so on lead to a cue for using the skis early to ride them into the turn.

The deeply technical discussions are interesting, but the real question is how we apply this on-snow. What are the sensations? What are the mental movement cues that get us where we want to go?
You just said it better!
post #24 of 27
Pete,
Heh, sorry the topic got obliterated by technogeekery. My own initial post responding to BillyRay was a direct attempt to describe a way we really can allow our skis tips to pull us into the turn. I think the idea still applies (even in its state of banishment).

To accomplish the turn entry described, our intent must be to gradually activate the ski's built-in turning capability rather than force it with our own twisty skills and strength. To give our skis time to create the turn we've got to stay balanced over them while they do their own thing rather than racing on ahead with our body and dragging them along.

.ma
post #25 of 27
Thread Starter 
michaelA, it was tough to split some of the posts, and yours were among those. Especially the ones answering multiple people... I did my best, but didn't mean to banish anything. Only to segregate the simple from the complex.

So, how do we gradually activate the ski's turning capability? How how does the "gradually" change depending on the type of turn?
post #26 of 27
"Resist the Twist" to quote a BBowl instructor. Later, RicB.
post #27 of 27
When I hear referances to the ski tips drawing or pulling the skier into the falline I invision a skier with release timing that is so too late that their CM must be re-directed down the hill, aka no flow park-n-ride. :

I prefer the perspective of the released CM actively flowing to the inside of the new turn such that the skis must arc into the falline just to keep up!
This is what produces the feeling of being upside down that Martin Bell refers to.

I see most skiers hanging on to the re-direction of the CM too long and missing the optimum point to start releasing leg tension so the CM can go more directly where you want to go without taking the out and around, or huck up and over, scenic route.

Skiing clean and dynamic Arc-2-Arc does not require a heavy carve in the top of the turn. Feeling heavy at the top of the turn probably means you released too late and needed strong re-direction of CM back toward the falline. Optimum release timing produces just enough pressure to bend'em just as much as needed, but no more. Excess pressure in the top of the arc usually leads to even more excessive pressure in the rest of the arc as well. Skilled release timing and presure management can make the differance between working really hard at arc'n for a few runs till your legs die, or arc'n just hard enough all day till the lifts close.

Arcimundo is best expressed as carvimotion via perfect pressedgulation. (Inspired by The Fonz) :
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