The Ultimate Carving System - Page 3

jhcooley, check your irony meter. It may need a new battery...

words words words------

is this where the term hen-pecking came from? i hope you guys have more fun on the hill than on the computer.

Sorry. I shouldn't have blamed Rick, since the assertions he was posting, tongue in cheek, originate elsewhere.

I couldn't resist pointing out, though, that even my limited experience with PSIA would at least appear to have plenty of counterexamples to the claims being made, um, "elsewhere."

I am reminded of a Dilbert strip in which Dogbert gets a job, then a promotion, and finally the chairmanship of the company by merely making loud demands.

Me, too. I've never had any of those "instructions" given me or suggested by any of the (many) instructors I know, much less by those at the top of their games (like the ESA coaches, PSIA-RM examiners and clinicians, and clinicians at both Eldora and Copper). That's why this all seems so ludicrous to me. If you are going to attack an approach for being ineffective, make sure that you're addressing something that is true, not something that is a myth.

...the MythBuster in me tends to respond to that...

You, too, eh, jh?

No way, baby! This is all serious:

so, please, do not have any fun!

Especially when you're skiing!

Where's the video of all these skiers that are in the top 2%? This thread is useless without video.

BillA, this is just another typical case of using 6 words when 4 will do. Allow me to clarify:

This thread is useless.

ummm sorry to disillusion you but I think you will find Rocca learnt in one of those "European" ski schools - just that he learnt more recently than "years ago".... having had lessons recently with an ex-racer friend of his (I believe they grew up in same small town) I think you will find they don't quite teach PMTS there... his friend was an awesome instructor - I'll pay that bit... and has a nice story about having a photo sequence of Herman maier stuck on the wall at home

Sorry cgeib, I don't know what I was thinking.:

I don't agree with your assertion that this thread is useless. When I need a humor break, I visit this (or any of the other PSIA vs. PMTS threads). Works great. Cheers me up, and I can take on my ^$@#@ problems here at work again for a few minutes. Hit the refresh button, work, refresh, work, etc.

The PMTS vs TTS debate is the same as the coached turns vs instructor turns debate, provided you give credibility to the notion that instructor vs race coach turns are different.

I don't know that this thread is useless. I actually feel like I learned something or at least enhanced my understanding of some concepts from this thread. Max501's sequence and discussion thereof. I'm not going to spend a lot of time at realskiers, it seems too controlled, but although Harb sounds like a jerk, I think he has contributed greatly to the skiing of many, if not most of us.

I believe he introduced the idea of tipping the downhill ski onto it's little toe edge to initiate turns. I'm not saying skiers weren't already doing this, but by focusing on it, many skiers learned how to get their new shaped skis to perform like the old straight skis could not. Don't PSIA instructors use this concept/focus? Was Harb the first to teach tipping to turn? I may be wrong, but I think skiers and ski instructors owe a debt to HH.

I was first introduced to the concept of "show your bases to somebody uphill of you" at a clinic I took at Killington in, I believe, 1996. We were on those wildly shaped skis from Elan (if that helps any ski history buffs with the date...) so that there would be absolutely no doubt that those edges had engaged. We didn't use "little toe edge" terminology, but we most certainly spent a lot of time on getting those edges to engage early.

I have a very big problem with the idea that HH was the "first" to express the importance of many of the concepts that form PMTS.

That's around the same time but not exactly the same concept. It's similar but not focused on tipping the downhill ski onto it's downhill edge. Like I said, skiers may have been doing it, but he may have been the first to introduce this simple, effective focus. I'm not sure if he came up with it, but I first read about it in a magazine article by HH.

Some of us have been doing this since straight skis. But we never called it the Phantom Turn. We just called it early edge engagement. HH's contribution to the industry was packaging multiple concepts together, making it a system and marketing it to disaffected skiers.

I used early edge engagement in the eighties, but found the tipping of the downhill ski onto it's downhill edge to be a different focus, and a relevation to me and many other skiers. I don't know if HH originated the concept/focus or he got it from some one else. It seems like a lot of us have some issues withh HH and are not willing to give him credit for his contribution to skiing and ski teaching.

Going out on a limb here : , but HH's inability to make a point without insulting every member of PSIA is a big turn off. I, like many others on here, am deeply suspicious of anybody who attempts to advance their ideas by insulting the entrenched standard. If HH was a little more diplomatic, I'd be a lot more inclined to listen.

I was glad to see that Alaska Mike actually brought up one of the first inteligent points in this conversation - if you can call this thread a conversation.

Basically RabRab, your series of "last posts" really show what your agenda is. It also shows the ignorance of your thinking. I also don't think that this board or this discussion is going to benefit from you telling the world how great of a skier you are. If you want to do that, send us some video and keep the propaganda to yourself (as others have indicated). Your view is clearly not unbiased as you claim, because if it were you would realize where the best instruction lies, and who the best skiers on a mountain. It's not those who have been taught by PMTS.

Don't get me wrong, PMTS is not a bad teaching system. I would never call it that. It's leadership has some personal issues that require professional help, but that has been covered well in this thread so I will leave the psycho-babble to the professionals. PMTS does have a different and slightly narrow view of what skiing should be. Taking transitions for example: by following PMTS you will never learn the uses of a cross through or cross over transition; where they are useful and where they are not. You will however be great at using a cross under transition, and that is well if you never need the others. PMTS really seems to teach a slalom turn, and does not progress a lot further. It stands to reason that Rocca would be Harb's poster-boy because of this... but take a look at Rocca's GS standings...

PMTS has allowed em to realize insights into my own skiing, but I am nowhere near a follower of that system. The same goes for PSIA instructors, though. Basically I hold the same disdain for both systems because low-level members (like yourself) of both systems are quick to point out the other's shortcomings without really investigating what is actually going on with REAL skiing. They just reurgitate what they heard or read somewhere without putting any thought into what they are really saying or advocating... or better yet WHY they are advocating it. That is a thought that is missing from every single one of your posts. I am sure you could recite Expert Skier 2 to me word for word if I pressed you hard enough, but what does it mean? How much of what Harb teaches has been taught by the skiing world for years or is just common sense of skiing?

Now, back to the best skiers on the mountain. The best skiers on the mountain are racers. Period. Don't argue it because you will lose. A good USSCA coach is a lot easier to come by than Harb, and can teach you just as much. In the world of race coaches, Harb and his "ideas" are nothing special. In the world of skiing/racing/carving his students aren't much either. You will recall me being removed from his site, not for insulting him - but PMTS skiers in general. Show me a good one other than Harald and Diana. Max is the best I have seen... and he is no Harald (sorry Max). If PMTS was that great and was the end all to ski instruction don't you think that more of HH's students would be able to ski like he does... or better yet OUTSKI Harald *gasp*? Most of the good racers I know are at that level... why aren't Harald's students?

I suspect that if you went out and joined a good adult race program you would probably find a lot of similarities in what Harald teaches to what her been taught in the USSA for years. Fortunately, that is not all you would get. USSA coaches are int he business of building great skiers that can ski anything and use any technique they need to in order to get down the hill as fast as possible. Fitting a cookie cutter mold is not the goal for these athletes. Probably much of what you know would come in handy in a slalom course... but much of what you know would also get thrown out the window in GS and speed events... as well as quick pitch changes, fall aways, and various other features you run into while racing.

Now before I end this long post I want to point out (for all the readers) that PMTS and PSIA are two completely different organizations. PMTS has the PSIA sucks attitude... but is not doing anything to take its place or improve what already exists. PMTS is not prepared to take over as a national organization that services every single mountain in the US. It services small areas, and fills a tiny niche in the ski instruction market (even smaller than racing I would guess). PSIA is a huge organization that teaches and certifies instructors. Both organizations from time to time appear to be in need of having their heads removed from their own arses. Harb is a great skier, but in my opinion his skiing does not represent those who learn from PMTS (see my comments above)... his skiing represents one person - and he would have it no other way. Now, if RabRab wants to prove me wrong on this I am eager to see video of him skiing and would willingly recant my assessment of PMTS skiers and their ability to rival truly good skiers - but I bet that the end product that we will see is a slalom turn not unlike the ones that all racers have been taught for years, and can undoubtedly execute in a better fashion.

Later

GREG

Well that's understandable and lends credence to my idea that some of us have reasons to deny his contribution.

It just seems to me that the tipping thing as presented by HH was soon adopted by the rest of PSIA. I think he was on the PSIA demo team at that time. I could be totally wrong about all this...

Where Harald got it from is the point of all of this...

OK, get to the point. I think he originated it (not early edging, but specifically focusing on tipping the downhill ski onto the downhill edge to get a turn started). Where do you think he got it from?

Bloody hell, who are those guys in the photo.... the North American Metron Association?!

I remember a PMTS-advocate who was the greatest skiier in the whole world, who skiied with his bum pointing at the sky. Certainly an interesting style, which enabled him to closely inspect all the snow but not a lot else.

Trust me, I know darn well that I don't ski anywhere near as good as HH and in fact I doubt I ever will as I'm not a skipro. Take a look at Diana as she was one of his students. Jay is another very good PMTS skier.

BTW, I agree with you that well rounded racers tend to be the best on the hill. But after hanging out with race coaches the last few years I'd have to disagree with your assertion that you get training that is the same and/or better than what you get from HH.

Those familiar with racing will see that what Harald has taught is not exclusive to him only - he himself even notes that he teaches what racers are learning - not vice versa. If that were the case I think we would see Harald at USST training camps or as a full time coach - don't you? The guy (Harb) is smart and much of what he teaches works for the application that he teaches it for but I do not see him as an innovator at all, despite his own desires to be thought of by his students as such. How much time have you spent reading Harb's books and comparing them to commonplace slalom training? Also, you will probably notice an evolution of PMTS into what is a modern slalom turn - the comparison is easy to see even when comparing Harald's own skiing in the Expert Skier 2 to his present-day skiing. Anyhow, that is enough on this topic for me right now. I just wanted to get a message out that was more than the PMTS/PSIA bickering in order to point out that neither systems have "arrived" and that the truly best way to learn high level skills is by not buying into the dogma of one system or another.
Later
GREG

Isn't Jay also a PMTS (and possibly race) coach? Anyhow, (I am really heading out after this post ) I think that if you spent some time with (good) race coaching, and were to break down all of the terminologies into similar terms and examine all of the movements, that you would find that a lot of PMTS is covered by racing. Much of it isn't dumbed down for normal people like it is in PMTS, and it does not use Harald's self-invented terminologies, but much of what you find will be the same (at least in slalom). The major difference in racing is that you also focus on tactics and applying the right skills and movements at the right time, not the same movements all of the time. This is why racers often make excellent all-mountain skiers once they have learned to apply these tactics. Their technical knowhow, and ability to adapt to terrain, surface conditions, and turn shape without sacraficing their balance, control, or power sets them apart from the rest. Interestingly, there was just a discussion on this over at TGR of all palces, which I feel is worth the read.

Later

GREG

That was part of the joke, ant. See the Let's Go Colorado II thread in Meet on the Hill for the names of the folks in that pic.

What I like about those pictures are the big smiles on the faces of all of those people . Especially the big grin of Steve in the last photo. People having great fun . Who cares who you learn from .What matters is your enjoyment of what you have learned

you go girl

Amen!

Ya'll come join us for 2.5 or III. On 4/6/07 you can't even complain about the cost of lunch at Vail... Uncle Louie and SugarCube are buying... if you follow the rules! Check out the threads...