The Ultimate Carving System - Page 2

So would you advise Easyrider to seek PMTS instruction, or instruction from some other non-PSIA school/system?

Oh, that was sarcasm, nevermind.

Bs"D

Hey Rick, how's it going?
(I was going to stay away from this thread, but "had to" respond to Rick)

Before I write my beef with your words, I want to remind you who I am (again to prove my neutrality).
You came over to the PMTS forum last year when I was still on it.
[BTW, HH only kicked me off temporarily - to cool off as he said. If I were to promise not to oppose his dictatorship and never say anything negative about PMTS (more or less), then I could come back on (after all, he knew I had written very positive things about PMTS (still hold by them). He also knew that he deliberately deleted the incriminating posts and then lied to everyone on the thread about them never having exisited (these were posts where I respectfully pointed out contradictions in his words after he challenged me to do so. There was another who backed me up (since he saw the whole thread and agreed with me) and his posts were also deleted and he was warned that he would be kicked off too if he made any other "rebellious" remarks). Yeah fat chance that I would want to come back on.
My last posts, which were also obviously deleted, were expressing shock as to how he could be so dishonest. I continued to compliment him on his amazing ski instruction, but was appalled by his immoral behavior - which was unecessary - he's only human, I didn't condem him for making a rare mistake, just wanted to get to the bottom and truth of the subject. But, he couldn't handle that - guess he doesn't agree to the only human part.
There were several who saw the truth and tried to speak to him about it in person - that he shouild appologize to me. He refused. He just said that anything that threatens the success of PMTS he will deal with that way. Idiot, you, and this method of dealing with sincere dialog, are your own biggest threat, and always have been!

I mention this because he also dealt with you in somewhat of a similar manner. When you first came on you were very respectful and openned what I considerred a legitamate dialogue on new stance foot extension and COM movement etc. You and HH didn't agree with each other, and after some time of debate, he became more and more agitated and less fair. He began accussing you of intentionally coming on to fight him and PMTS. If you remember, I supported you then, and said I thought that your questions were valid (I certainly was never convinced that he wass right from his arguements, and said so). Nobody (his close followers who tried to chime in on his side) could convincingly prove you were wrong.
I don't know who was right in this particular complicated issue (and let's not start it again), but what I do know is that I was appalled by how he eventually kicked you off, deleted your posts, and then went on ranting about what a crooked ill-intended guy you were and that for now on all rebels to the throne would be dealt with in the same way. This was actually the beginning of the end of my desire to hang around. I resolved that I certainly wouldn't hesitate to ever tell it like it is - and that eventually sent me the same way.
Now, again, this should gain me some credibility:

Nevertheless, I say clearly, that IMO HH is definately the greatest ski instruction authority in the world today, and I don't think that any other system even compares to PMTS in both its understanding of superior technique and its ability to articulate it and have it learned and used. He is truly an icon of the sport - even if he is an #$@#%.

Specifically here (and let's just take one for now):

I don't know what you yourself do personally, I have never skied with you (****, who did, said you're real good and fast). But, how can you say that TTS dosen't teach an upmove as the foundation of transition? Its all over the place. The video footage I saw of Weems at Snowbird (during some PSIA testing I think) shows a very ugly gross upmove.
He was clearly unweighting in transition, rotating to initiate, somewhat stemming, skidding the first half of his turn, only finishing with a clean carve - skiing opposite what PMTS teaches, and clearly weaker IMO. Again, sorry if this sounds conceited to those who haven't seen better, but not only does HH ski in another whole league, also, to a lesser extent, his students do, and honestly, without ever having received any on snow coaching from PMTS myself, so do I.

I don't want to go into a whole debate now, but if you are more honest than HH, if you are not just trying to market yourself exactly like you claim he is, then you will admit this objective truth. Weems was doing an upmove.

So, why don't you tell the folks who could benefit from PMTS the truth.
It not the only way to teach a guy to get down the mountain, but its the best. His statementws about what's lacking out there are accurate, even if not about everyone - maybe not you. As I said (and again, believe me not from ego, but for the sake of the truth, I can ski circles around most (not all) of the PSIA ski instructors I have seen at all resorts - all deliberately teaching there up-unweight and skidded upper halfs of turns.
[I'm not even going into the earlier methods with beginners.]
But, even the ones who are truly good, I see them as great natural athletes who's bodies have just physically "figured out" what to do after years of doing it, but can't pass it on, can't explain it. This is one of HH's greatest contrbutions. Afterall, he didn't really invent anything in the skiing itself (besides some excersices etc.), he simply understands and is able to articulate World Cup technique on the highest level. Depite his rare mistakes in communication, and his dictatorship personality, he is amazing in his consistant ability to diagnose peoples skiing deficiencies, answer everyones questions on all subjects skiing related with crucial info, and continue to redirect people to better (yes ssh, better) technique against the mainstream trends.

I don't expect you to admit this Rick, because you are not unbiased as I am. You are looked to here as the anti-Harb, the alternative. You can't give that all up by admitting that the ^$#%^ is right, that he, for the most part, is offerring a better alternative. And, it is also hard for you because he dealt unfairly with you. But, in this you can take a lesson from me. I seperate his faults, and his personal treatment, from his strengths and universal contributions. That's fair.

I want to hear you admit that an upmove is being widely taught, just like he complains, even if not by you yourself. Otherwise, you are no different and no better than he is in terms of honesty or fairness.

But, of course the problem is that if you were to admit this, everyone might finally realize the truth that, although he has his serious shortcomings, he's got the goods, and everyone would flock to him to get the best instruction. Would sort of put a lot of people out of business.

This was my last attempt at telling the good folks listenning in here where they can get the best. I have spent too much time on this. I guess this itself is the final proof. Despite his treatment, in my fairness, I feel somewhat indebdted to him. I never took any on snow training with him - only bought his DVDs etc. but benefited greatly (still benefit by passively reading on the forum) from all of his singularly authoritative contribution on the forum. I grew up racing and have skied like Weems from probably before Weems was born. But, through, and only through, PMTS have graduated to a much higher level of latest cutting edge WC technique, way beyond how I was taught at European and Mt. Hood racing camps years ago, and way beyond what guys like Weems are still doing. Rocca, now there's a guy to emulate. And, you can learn how from the #@$%%$.

Telerod, I think you need to read the rest of his post!

OK, he was being clever and I'm a little slow. Got it!

You see, that's where I strongly disagree with you.

He is not a good instructor, never mind a great one.

Anyone whose method of instruction is based on "there is only one way to do things - my way. Everyone else is wrong" and is closed to seeing other points of view, or learning from others, is NOT an instructor.
If he can't tailor his instruction to suit different students, then he isn't a good teacher.
If a student asks a question and gets kicked out of the classroom, then the teacher is not very effective at teaching.

That's why I say he is not a good instructor.

:I just cannot figure out why someone who advocates something as simple as slicing the snow with the edges of the skis should be thought of as a demi-god. It's not that complicated. All the instruction you need for that is a little understanding of hour an hour-glass sheet of paper makes contact with a flat surface when it is tilted and 1/2 an hour listening to a 30-year old TV running comentary on any Downhill race.

Bs"D

WTFH, you are right. In terms of classroom behavior (bedside manner), he is not a good instructor. I have said this at length.

But, in terms of the technical content, and clarity of that content, he is in a league of his own. Again, not just better, often diametrically oppossed to what others are teaching.
But, and this is important, its not like you say "only his way" - its not his way. As often repeated, he is simply articulating to you what the best are doing (Rocca and Kostelic, not Weems!) and helping you get there. Helping you avoid being like Weems and become more like Rocca and Kostelic. Again, in this, he is in his own league.

Hey, everything is relative. If you like the way Weems skis (poor guy, keeps getting bashed here), go ahead. He is certainly better than the vast majority of the mainstream taught free-skiing public. He can certainly make it down most terrain, and better than the average guy.
But, if you want to emulate Rocca, and ski terrain which Weems' "technique" will fail on altogether, then you better over look the #^$$%'s classroom manner defiaciencies and listen to what the expert professor is saying.

Bs"D

Ghost, I olbviously agree with you too about the demi-god point.

But, again, obviously, getting skiing right at the highest level is not so simple or guys like me, who still have a ton to learn and improve, wouldn't be way better than 98% of everyone on the hill.

So what is Bs"D? Is that your signature, or tagline, or what? What does it mean? Sorry, I'm a little slow...

Have you really listened to every ski teacher, and found every last one of them deficient to Harb in understanding how to ski and/or how to explain it?

RadRab, I understand that you have watched video clips, sat in front of instructional DVDs, heard said by eyewitnesses, and come to your own conclusions. What is lacking in your account is any direct experience or evidence to back up these judgments. Thus, you have presented us with an articulate man's half-informed opinion. In my book, that's sophistry, and in my experience, sophistry is used to manipulate others.

What's your agenda, sir? It's clear you have one, but that's about all you have clearly communicated to me.

(How old are you, anyway?)

Bs"D

Telerod,
Bs"D = "with the help of heaven".
It is something I put at the beginning of anything I write, as a reminder to myself and others of the ultimate and true source of everything, and as a sort of prayer for success in the current endeaver. Seems like my prayer may have been unanswered. And, as previously mentioned by LCS, maybe this is a waste of human time and effort which should go to higher matters as Bs"D should have reminded me.
Or are there folks out there that may be getting anything good out of this (either way, probably not worth the effort)?

Yes, whomever I have had contact with has IMO been inferior. That is why I chose to learn from PMTS. But, don't forget I said more than once that this may not apply to everyone. And, that there are individual truths and goodnesses able to be gained from anybody/everybody.

"Ben Zomah said: Who is wise, he who learns from all men" [Talmud].

But, not all things, or the same things, can be learned from all men. Just that each one has his unique contribution.
At the risk of reverting back to too strong confrontation, sometimes it can even be a negative lesson. Like, see what Weems just did? That is a perfect illustration of what not to do.

My Confession

I remember it like yesterday. that long walk down the hall,,,,fealing like it was the last place I wanted to go, yet knowing I had no other choice. Then I was there, trying like hell not to be noticed, slumped down in a chair in the back row. But the lady at the podium she saw me and said, "we have a new member today, stand up an introduce yourself". This was it for me, my day of reconing. So I rose up, knowing I would have say it, speak the words that had been knawing at my brain. After all, this had made my life almost unbearable, giving me trouble at work, creating tensions at home. It was now or never. So I said, "Hi, I'm Ric, and I am an Opinionator. The relief was almost immediate, probably helped along by the fact that everyone looking at me was suffereing from the same "Disease". Everything is a disease now days isn't it? With 100 different specialists, with 100 different opinions. You'd think Opinionators Anonamous would be overflowing by now, but I know what is going on, they are all in denial.

All in all though, I have to say that joining tuesday night's "Opinionators Anonamous" group was the best thing I have done up to this point in my life. They say I will struggle with this for my entire life, that I will never be cured. Once an opinionator, always an opinionator. Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that it's hard to give up ones opinions,,,makes me feel naked, kinda like those dreams where everyone else has clothes on and I don't. Brings out every insecurity I have. But life goes on and things do get better.


A little more seriously though, there is a saying in tai chi, "Bring your mind and leave your opinions at the door". To me, this is really what true learning is about. Steping into new terrority with your intellect, leaving current views and opinions temporarily shelved. The door swings both ways though, and we can still come back through after entering and engaging ouselves, picking up where we left off. It is not denying what you brought to the door, just just entertaining the possibilities of learning more. It is only becomes a permanent situation if some one locks the door from behind, or we lock it behind ourselves, because we chose to make the door a wall, closing ourselves off in a comfortable room, denying future learning, living forever with our present state of learning. later, RicB.

P.S. I think this is all Steve was trying to say, Bring your mind, but leave your opinions behind, if you really want to learn.

Bs"D
I am 47. I have no aggenda, and am shocked that you can still question this.
Although I did say openly that, besides being somewhat of a natural stubborn defender of what I believe to be true (even if only in the relatively less important arena of the sport of skiing), and, in the more important arena of ethics between people, even strangers and even, again, about skiing, that I also feel somewhat in debt to HH for what I have learned from him, despite his own poor ethics. Everyone should be so fair in all areas of life. What other aggenda could I have?! Maybe I'm a secret agent for HH or HH himself, using reverse pychology. Or, underhandedly gaining your trust by admittting his/my faults, and then cleverly gaining your loyalty due to the technical superiority as then only finally heard and, therefore, accepted. What kind of cool aid are you on guy? Anyway, no way would HH every agree to use such a method. If for the sake of his end he was willing to do such a thing, he would already have done less extreme measures like just be polite etc. No, I guess I share this with him, zealousness, but just in a more fair way.

As far as your other "difficulty" goes. I'm sorry for you if I am better able than you, or what you can imagine, to put into practice what I have read in word, and seen on video. My on snow experience comes from my own skiing, and comparing it to what I see first hand on snow in other non-PMTS instructors (and what others skiing with me have commented on that same comparison). Either way, correct or failed, it certainly is not attempted, or obviously successful, manipulation. Actually, that quite insulting, especially since my aggenda is as stated, and including a sincere (although probably wasted) desire to help other skiers gain what is obvious to me as a benefit. But, hey, tell it like you see it. I certainly haven't pulled any punches. Anyway, thank you for the "articulate" compliment.

Really guys, I don't care - forget it. Be happy.

I didn't realise that Rocca and Kostelic were trained at the feet of Mr Harb. I thought they had been taught by others.
e.g. in this pic:
http://www.gazzetta.it/Hermes%20Foto...F--280x190.jpg
Rocca is going to have to ROTATE his leg to get his inside ski back on the snow. Definitely wrong in some books!

Or here, Kostelic has spray coming off his bent inside ski:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/prints/th...en-sl-2-wm.jpg
Very wrong!

Here's his sister doing a very similar thing:
http://www2.raisport.rai.it/news/spo...e/kostelic.jpg

As for Raiche, Miller, etc, do you need to see pics of them to see they don't ski in only one way, with all others being completely and utterly wrong?

RabRab-
You would probably enjoy race coaching, and if you did you'd probably find Harald less an innovative figure in ski instruction than you now believe. Harald is a talented coach, for certain, but to paraphrase Robert Redford's dad in Downhill Racer, "world's full of them". Any balanced racing program covers all of the same stuff as PMTS.

The true genius of PMTS is that it takes classic race drills and progressions and presents them to the general public. Nothing really innovative except finding a new audience for the information. Throw in a good bit of dogma and personality, and you have a new teaching system.

The problem with claiming that PMTS is World Cup skiing is that there are many things in World Cup skiing that Harald sidesteps to make it fit within the system. Bode's "attack from the backseat" style, Raich's bowlegged canting (wide stance), and many other examples just don't fit the mold.

I have occasionally browsed the topics at the PMTS forum, and while I agree with a great deal of what is there, there are a few issues I have with the message and the way that it is presented. I also realize that arguing them within the forum is a pointless exercise. I have better things to do with my time.

If you ski better than 98% of the skiers on the hill, it's time to move to another hill.

For the record, I like Weems' skiing. They aren't race turns, and they aren't intended to be. "Weems doesn't race" was the title of a thread a few months ago. Intent define technique, not the other way around.

I think that we can all agree to this RicB. But the inclusive inference is that also currently non-PMTSers should be open to learning about PMTS and see if it isn't a whole different "turn".

WTFH,
You must have missed what I said about HH not inventing anything, just articulating what is being done at the highest level for the masses. And, BTW, I was referring to the sister (not that Ivica is chopped liver).


Alaska Mike, First of all, it was a pleasure to read your intelligent post. But, the above is also a response to you. I only meant that he is the greatest "coach" to the masses. I'm not in a serious race program anymore, and 99% don't have access to such.
But, I also think that there are a lot of national teams that would have betewr results with HH as their coach than who they do have. I think that Rocca's more PMTS style (yes, in reverse - PMTS emulates guys like Rocca) is one of the reasons why he was more successful than others in SL.
Either way, from what is available to the public, and what is most possible for the average skier to copy, I truly believe that PMTS is the best he can get - by far the best as above.

Anyway, you could be right about the hill

So, if PMTS emulates Rocca's style, does that mean they recommend using rotation, and using different skills and methods at different times?

Yes, RadRab, basically I agree with this assessment of what you are up to: I stand corrected in one respect, however, as you have clarified your agenda (reason for posting here): It isn't a whole different turn. It's a marketing entity that utilizes the same negative approach as political action committees--that is, the underhanded mud-slinging and bashing of "TTS", PSIA, its demi-gods like Weems and all its adherents. Having followed your posts over the past months, I think I am justified in calling you out on your disingenuous posture as an impartial Samaritan, when your avowed purpose is to sell PMTS to the new posters at epicski. Ditch the beard.

Bs"D

Last post (without swearing):

If you have indeed followed my not so frequent posts, you would know that what you wrote is not accurate.
I have responded (or asked) according to the subject. When it had nothing to do with PMTS, nothing was said about PMTS. When I thought I could add something to someone's understanding of skiing, and yes, sometimes just correct something that was IMO blantantly wrong and misleading to someone's developement, I didn't hesitate to do so. You are terribly confused if you think that this is anything but a good thing to do (although, again, perhaps a waste of time with guys like you, but you are not the only type here).

Oh, yes, so as not to reveal that I have already chosen what I believe to be a good system, and so as not to offend those who want to choose not to choose (or continue to dream about their lack of lacking), I should have refrained from offerring my opinion. Brilliant.

Bomb away, but I'm outta here.

Nothing selective about what I said. This also includes myself.
Most seasoned and serious instructors have played with pmts priciples, some more seriously than others. They have read the books, contemplated the words and the mechanics, and come to their own conclusions. I personly find some value in it and plan on actually revisiting it this winter. My focus has been in a different direction of late. More in the highly titled and technical direction. It is good to play with different ways to make "turns" though.

Really, most of us gravitate towards what we most need to learn and what we feel makes the most difference for our own personal skiing. Most good instructors regularly and gladly step outside of our own "rooms" to facilitate our students progress. I hope we all rise up for this challenge, not by pulling those around us down, but by helping everyone rise up with us. Let's not cut down the whole forest to be the tallest tree. Later, RicB.

My experience with HH doesn’t support your conclusion. In person he's an amazing instructor, no question about it, and the best I've ever worked with in any sport. As I've said before, working with HH my skiing improved rapidly. That can only happen if you have a great instructor that knows exactly what a student needs to do to improve and can articulate it in a fashion that the student can understand and implement.

In books and video he's the best I've ever seen (and I have a rather large stack of ski books and videos). In addition, his books empowered me to teach my kids how to ski. After two seasons of reading and practicing PMTS I put them on the ski team and the coaches were surprised to hear that the kids didn't have any professional instruction when they saw them ski. So, his books taught me how to teach my kids...if that's not good teaching I don't know what is.

It seems that the PMTS forum causes the contention. Can you ask a question over there without getting kicked out? Of course you can. The problem is when folks start a debate and clutter the forum up with all sorts of opinions regarding ski technique. The forum is not a place to debate PMTS and ski technique. Rather the forum is a place for students of PMTS to gather and further their understanding of PMTS.

Some will argue that debate is healthy and I would agree. And Epic is a great place for these types of debates because of its neutrality with regards to ski instruction. However, Epic’s neutrality may be its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. For those people that are well versed in skiing the debate approach may make sense. The problem is with those that are new to the sport of skiing and are trying to learn from Epic…so many different opinions on any question that is asked. Yet, not all of it ‘fits’ together. And for a new student this can be quite confusing. PMTS as a system and the PMTS forum have eliminated the conflict of opinion.

Keep in mind that HH was once a member of the Demo Team working with the PSIA. He ended up where he is today because of what he perceived to be problems with ski instruction. HH has spent an enormous amount of time developing a system that is straight forward and relatively easy to learn from. It is supported by books, videos, and camps. You can jump from one PMTS coach to another and you can pick up right where you left off. Finish a lesson and continue learning from the books and follow up with questions and further instruction on the PMTS forums. Its comprehensive, works together and produces darn good skiers.

Let's to the math. Better than 98 % means top 2%. That's 2/100 or 20 of 1000 or 200 of 10,000. Those numbers are staggerring!

Why is this claim only ever made by the PMTS student?

I don't know if it is worse to be told this, or actually believe it given that "guys like me have a ton to learn and improve".

I think the focus on PMTS student here is mispaced. My observation is that racers and ex-racers are some of the best skiers on the slopes and he mentioned his race background.

John Stuart Mill once wrote that one should not outlaw the utterance of falsehoods because it will become impossible to detect the truth.

Eliminating conflict of opinion eliminates the quest for truth. The quest is replaced by faith, not reason.

Isn't that also one of the 12 steps: To admit failure and give up control to another? I'm not buying the "it's too confusing" argument.

Then the self deprecating nature of the post is all that matters. There is no content, just manipulation of the reader.

I'm with nolo.

All I can tell from this post so far is that radrab is one percentage point better as a skier than scsa.

98th percentile versus 97th.

How enlightening.

I can only speak from my own, limited, experience. The PSIA people I have skied with have generally discouraged an up move (by me, anyway), although it can certainly be in the toolkit. The desired move is lateral.

Maybe I don't have such a concept. I always thought it was a great deal of fun, however, to get out on the corduroy first thing in the morning (very few people) and leave pure railroad tracks with no straight sections and no skidding from top to bottom over 1,600 vertical feet, using only turn shape for speed control. Was it done the HH way? I don't know. Just stand on 'em, roll 'em edge to edge, always either increasing or decreasing edge angle (no parking allowed), and enjoy the ride.

Depends on intent. For the run described above, no rotary is required or allowed. If you want a tighter turn, tip 'em over farther! If I'm doing tight turns in the bumps or the trees, you can bet I'm going to add some rotary. Sometimes, a lot of rotary.

But, hey, maybe my perceptions are all whack!

Anyway, maybe my instructors and clinicians didn't do it the PSIA Way(TM), but they claimed to be PSIA...:

For what little it's worth (nothing, most likely) that's been my experience with the PSIA crowd.

There are some who have said this. I have spoken with others who did not have your experience, so, again, mileage varies for different people and one size does not fit all. This is as any thinking person should expect. Here we disagree pretty strongly, but, again, it's an individual thing. He clearly has an approach and information that works for some people. Others may have worked "better" for you, but neither you nor anyone else will ever know, since you can't "go back" to where you were before and try an alternative. So, again, it worked for you. That's tremendous! It may work for others. But, it may not, and there may be other alternatives that work almost as well... or even better... No, actually, you can't ask an honest question unless in doing so you are willing to receive doctrine without the opportunity for clarification or additional questions. While I am not currently banned there, I was banned for a while based on my questions attempting to understand. I have (and had) no agenda; I'm simply trying to understand what's so different about PMTS, since it doesn't seem different from what I have learned from many others over the past three seasons of focused ski learning. Everyone keeps telling me that it's completely different, and I'm just not seeing it. They use examples (like the "up extension for unweighting") that are inaccurate or untrue, so the claims do not hold up under even the most basic examination from a newbie instructor. So, where's the meat? I don't get it! I agree with this. One of my hopes (it's not a plan, yet) for EpicSki is that we'll provide more structured opportunities for those among us to communicate and teach outside of a debate. The Podcast is a start. (As an aside, if you'd like to get some answers from someone who has won a Gold Medal, coached racers, and matriculated to the highest levels of the PSIA, toss a few questions into this thread!)
Once again, there are multiple perceptions of each of the points in this paragraph. So, YMMV. Can we not admit that there are many approaches that help different people, that the best educators are those who can assess the needs of a student and address them one-by-one, and that there are a number of more-or-less structured ways of doing it?