The Ultimate Carving System - Page 10

One more time and then I give up.

When carving, a small amount of counter acting movemement is used to reduce any rotation in the direction of the turn. But by the time you get to the float there isn't any counter because the torso is now lined up and pointed in the same direction as the skis. At this point there is no energy from counter acting movements that would influence the direction of the skis.

In a very aggressive short turn (like I use in the bumps) you have more counter at the end of the turn and you can release this energy and allow the skis to redirect. Its almost effortless and I find very easy to control.

I see, one must apply a small rotary force to resist the passive rotation.

Thanks Max!

And I thought the PSIA jargon was confusing.:

Somebody want to explain me the differance between counter and rotary? It would seem to me the body is made to be facing in it's normal state and counter would inevitably add some rotational force just by the stretching of the muscle groups.
Wouldn't the body introduce some rotation through counter , angulating over uneven terrain and the forces applied to your skis in a turn?

What's so hard to understand? First the turn starts to produce angular momentum in the lower body (it is a turn, after all). The counter-rotation ot the upper body is there to, well, counter that in order to get back to net-zero angular momentum. No sense having any vestigial spinning going on, is there?

My mistake there. I use counter and counter acting movements as the same thing.

I suppose that depends on how much you counter to the outside of a turn. In a carve its not really the case. Start from the float and you are square to your skis. Now, just maintain the torso in that direction as the skis engage and then begin to turn. As the skier you aren't applying any rotary forces, rather you are holding a position that results in eliminating or reducing a rotary force into the turn.

Yea, Max, we got that already. Counter is used to remove the same "passive" rotary forces that counter produces. You're right, Bsather; what's so confusing about that? :

So, Max. Can you carve a turn if your body is rotationally square to your skis (body facing the same direction as the skis are pointing), or do the "passive" rotary forces overwhelm your skis and compromise your carve?

Max, HH would have your a$$ for that statement.

For "high C" carving (arc to arc skiing for the rest of the world) he stresses the crucialness of introducing strong counter and counter balance at the top of the turn while the skis are skill pointing across the slope (yet to reach the falline),,, the portion of the turn where gavity is working against you.

Hmm...I don't know if you are intentionally misunderstanding me or if I'm not being clear. But you mixing apples and oranges above. In a carve counter can be used to nullify the tendancy to rotate to the inside of the turn. Yes? At this point it doesn't contribute to any passive rotary as the forces to the inside and outside are cancelling one another and you are carving cleanly along. At the end of the turn you gradually come sqaure to the skis releasing the small amount of counter you were using. As you come flat there is no rotational energy so the skis do not redirect while they are flat.

Now, in an agressive short turn (or in a turn where you over counter) you end the turn with stored engergy. When you release that energy the skis will redirect.

I have a couple of friends that ski very much like what you describe here. They have a tough time getting early edge engagement without having the tails displace a bit. I don't have this problem using counter. I can carve a tighter radius turn using counter as I get solid early edge engagement.

Just a little quibble, Max. If you were flying above the skier looking straight down while he turned he would appear to be rotating below you (i.e., you are in his frame of reference in a featureless environment). If he stopped his carving, he would continue to turn (skidding on flat skis) due to conservation of angular momentum (until some external frictional forces stop the spinning).

In other words, once you apply a torque, spin is induced; it continues until some equal and opposite torque zeros it out. Somewhere along the line torque has to come into play otherwise there's no angular velocity (i.e., "turn"), so it doesn't matter if the skier is "rigid" or not or how he's facing.

Strong counter balance at this piont, yes. And the appropriate amount of counter, yes. But not too much here or you will over counter.

Valid point, I stand corrected.

turntable bindings?

Hope its OK to introduce a little levity into this discussion ... I am intrigued by the hypothetical bindings-mounted-on-turntables mentioned in a few of the posts above. Would it be possible to ski at all in them? It seems to me like it might, but it would be very weird: not only would carving and scarving be possible but heelside and toeside turns as well! (Actually, I'm more certain about the heelside and toe-side turns than I am about the carving and scarving. You might even be able to link heelside (or toeside turns back and forth accross the hill. I am halfway tempted to take a pair of old skis and see what could be done here, though it would suck to break a leg early in the season (which does seem like a possibility here!) And (At the risk of starting more "discussion," if you are doing a heelside turn on skis do you want your weight on your upper heel or lower heel? Where shoud your center of mass be as you transition from a heelside left turn to a heelside right turn by rotating your upper body to face the hill?

I think you would have serious problems with boot-out on the heel-side and toe-side turns.

Instead of mounting special bindings, just get some old look turntable heels and marker toe-pieces and set the DIN on the markers as close as you can to zero.

340 mm underfoot. No problem with boot out. It's a problem getting the outside ski to reach over the inside ski at high angles..

I was reviewing the PSIA-RM exam maneuvers tonight and got to thinking... I wonder how a pure PMTS skier skis in a half pipe...?

...and what do you do with the poor results from PMTS camps? Just ignore those, too? The people that don't improve, the people that get worse, and the people who admit that it's not for them (all of whom I have either personally met or am one degree removed from).

No one approach works for everybody. No one approach is "best". That's really the bottom line.

...and the skiing on video is all relative, believe me.

Well, I think I've ridden this merry-go-round long enough. I'll provide a summary of what I've come away with from it, then move on.

First, thanks to Max for attempting to answer my questions the best he could. Max, I understand that you are only relaying that which HH preaches, that the ideas you present are not your own, and that you're happy to accept his ideas as yours verbatim. And I understand that you have no interest in exploring the validity of what you've shared here, so what I am about to write is not directed to you. It's aimed at those who are on their own personal technical exploration, and looking to gain something from this conversation.

First, in regard to "passive" and "active" rotary. These are two terms HH uses in an attempt to distinguish between the good rotary he claims he promotes (passive) and the bad rotary he claims PSIA promotes (active). This is good for marketing and casting the competition in an ugly light, but the fact is there really are only two categories of rotary movements.

Category 1 - Those movements used to apply a rotary force upon the skis which cause them to twist into a new direction. Call this category "active rotary" if you wish. And,,,,

Category 2 - Those rotational articulations of the joints that allow the body to flex, angulate, balance, and put the skis on edge, but do not administer a rotary force upon the skis capable of twisting them into a new direction, or compromising the quality of the carve. Call this category "passive rotary" if you wish.

Steering, stepping, pivoting, brush carving, scarving, rotational tail tossing, counter rotation tail tossing, hop turns, pivot slips,,, these are all terms used to describe Category 1 techniques. Each technique has a different purpose, each will be used in different situations, and some are more energy and movement efficient than others. However, each is employed with the primary intention of changing the direction the ski/skis are pointing and subsequently traveling through the use of specific rotary force creating movements.

As much as some might try to deny it, creating precise levels of rotational influence on the skis requires the use of precise intentional movements. If this were not the case, we would have no mechanism for controlling rotational forces while we ski and creating the exact turn shape we desire.



Next, I'll discuss counter. By traditional usage the term COUNTER refers to something completely different from what is meant by the term COUNTER ROTATION. Counter is a body position in which the body is facing away from the direction of travel, to the outside of the arc. To assume the position requires subtle rotary movements of the category 2 family.

Counter's purpose is twofold. First, it places the body in a position for facilitating lateral balance via forward flexion at the hip. And second, it assists in the pronation of the outside foot, directing pressure to the business side of the outside ski, that being its inside edge.

Counter positions assumed correctly and in proper amounts do not significantly influence one way or the other the rotational forces being applied to the skis. Certainly not enough to affect the integrity of a carved turn.

Now, counter rotation is completely different. Counter rotation is a rotary movement of the category 1 family. It's a move who's intent is to change the direction the skis are pointing and traveling by applying an aggressive rotary force to them. It's done by executing an aggressive and dynamic rotary countering twist of the upper body to accompany and balance a simultaneous rotating twist of the feet and legs. To turn left, the skis are twisted left while the upper body is twisted right. It's a low level skill that is labor intensive and very inefficient. Not a technique or term that has any relevance to this discussion.

Back to counter. As I said, the presence (or lack thereof) of counter is not a significantly influencing factor on the nature of the rotational forces impacting the skis. And there is no natural tendency for the upper body to rotate into a carved turn, which must be negated by the use of counter, as was suggested in this thread.

In fact, it's just the opposite. As the skis carve a turn the body riding those skis is being progressively turned in new directions. The obvious natural tendency is for the outside half of the body to fall behind, as it needs to travel further as it's being dragged along into these new directional orientations. In reality, counter only contributes to this tendency of the outside half to fall behind. The true control mechanism in combating the fallback tendency is something I call rotational tension. This is the contractions of the muscles of the legs and core that prevent the body's outside half from lagging behind. Any degree of desired counter can be assumed (for the purpose of balance and pronation) and then rotational tension can be applied to maintain (or alter as desired) that state of counter as the outside half is dragged through the arc.

Rotational tension can also be amped up to not only maintain the outside half's rotational orientation through the arc, but to actually advance it. This is the technical mechanism used in the execution of Waist Steering. Waist Steering is something I've become familiar with over the last year, and now have a very good handle on its appropriate usage. But that's a discussion for another time.

And one last thing about the use of counter. As I said, counter is a balancing tool, a category 2 rotary movement, and in this regard what HH says about its usefulness in the top half of the turn (the high C) is very accurate. In the top of the turn gravity is working against the skier. It is not pushing back toward the skis to counteract inclination of the body toward the inside of the arc, as it does in bottom of the turn. It's actually in the top half of the turn acting to push skier further away from his feet, making maintaining balance while attempting to tip the skis on edge and execute an arc to arc transition in the top of the turn more of a challenge. The answer to this puzzle is to attempt to keep the Center of Mass (CM) closer to the feet while tipping the skis on edge at the top of the turn. This can be done via a combination of counter and forward flexion at the hip, and/or knee angulation. I give HH a gold star on this one.

Well, that wraps up my summation for this topic. I hope it was somewhat helpful, I hope those who persevered through the whole thread ended up walking away with at least a smidgeon of value for their effort, and I thank Max for his contribution to it.

RICK

Thanks, Rick! Great summation!

I have to admit that I've caused some confusion with regards to the use of counter in PMTS. After reviewing my notes and the books I see that I'm completely mistaken about using counter as a means for redirecting the skis. Basically I swapped the idea of edge change with ski redirection. Obviously not the same thing. I should have double checked my notes before I wrote about it as I was fuzzy on it anyway (that's why I put the link to the detailed counter post in there).

Here is the difference

I will initially base my reply on arc to arc skiing but the movement patterns described below are the gateway to "drifted" slip in turn entry and all ATS-PSIA shaped turns.
Advancement of the inside half of the body during the PREPARATION phase of a arc must be viewed (and executed) as movements about the bodies central axis. The upper/lower body sepatation concept and execution is NOT the case thus rotary force is not applied to the skis. The body separation is: left side column/shaft versus right side column/shaft.
Outside/Inside half of body- can be thought of as a column or shaft consisting of foot, leg, hip, oblique, shoulder and arm of one side of the body (to the outside or inside of the radius of a turn). For example, this concept allows the stance/lead change from TRANSITION to PREPARATION to be conceptualized and executed. The body has asymmetric movements of its outside and inside half. The adduction/abduction of the legs and the push/pull (extension/flexion) of the hips are two primary examples.

Elements of PREPARATION
PREPARATION STANCE
1. The edges are engaged, and ready to be energized
2. Ankles are dorsi flexed (bilateral)
3. Parallel boot shafts and legs
4. The outside leg is adducted and the inside leg is abducted
5. Inside hip flexion and outside hip extension
6. Stance change - Upside Down Traverse (UDT) stance- the entire inside half of the body leads the outside half
7. Upper body reflects stance- outside (tip of ski) focus/framing
8. Perpendicular body alignment to the skis
PREPARATION PHASE BODY MOVEMENTS
1. Edges are engaged by adduction of the outside leg and abduction of the inside leg
2. The entire inside half of the body is advanced in relation to outside half - diagonally gated
3. The inside hip is advanced linearly and begins to flex
4. The core remains tight
5. The inside half lead is accomplished by rotary movement about the central (longitudinal) axis of the body. See: Note below.
PREPARATION PHASE ATTRIBUTES
1. Balance is 60% outside foot/40% inside foot
2. Energy (applied parallel to the DOT) is 70% outside ski/30% inside ski
2. Pressure (energy) shifting to outside foot/ski
3. There is a time lag between edging the skis and deflection
4. A change of joint angle in the hips (inside vs. outside) places more energy on the outside ski and less energy on the inside ski

NOTE: The joints of the lower body are stabilized as a result of rotary movement (see: PREPARATION PHASE (body movements#5 ). This is an intrinsic benefit of PREPARATION, and an addition to core tonus. No corresponding rotary force from the stance change is applied to the skis. They receive linear energy only (with one exception, see: "Slip In" Technique).

Sorry, omitted from above reply...
DOT stands for direction of travel.

Nice write up Rick. One clarification which I believe is in agreement with you, but just to add a bit to the same vein...

One of the purposes of counter is to align the body so that large muscle groups can be employed in the task of angulation. You did speak of forward flexion at the waist for counter-balance. And you spoke of pronation, or perhaps another way of saying angulation? in order to direct pressures to the ski edge. More specifically, the counter is employed here to line up large muscle groups for angulating rather than awkward hip pinching movements. Counter basically positions the body into a position where it will be easier on the body to do these things which will positively impact ski performance on the snow. My understanding is that for the most part...counter itself doesn't really *DO* anything to make your skiis turn(if its done correctly). Its just a neccessary concept for insuring the body will be skeletally aligned in the best way possible to angulate, counter balance, etc... and those things definitely *WILL* effect the turn dramatically.

ps - I'd love to hear what this new waist steering concept is all about that I hear people talking about.

Yes, borntoski683, very good comments. I definitely concur. And this statement is excellent:

As to the pronatioin concept,,, it's a bio-mechanical principle that addresses the stance foot's natural tendency to pronate as pressure upon it transfers from heel toward ball, and the hip rotates about the head of the stance leg femur, in the direction of that leg.

And I promise to start a new thread on Waist Steering very soon. It will be a fresh look at it, greatly refined from a year ago, and will clearly define it's execution and proper application. Precise and to the point, it will be my personal views and explanations, based on a year of evaluation and evolution. Stay tuned.

Counter

Rick - your definition of counter is how I understand it. The label counter-rotation is not what we are taught, but counter as you have described it. That is hips pointing to the outside of the turn, which when dialed in increases the edge angle but has no effect on rotation one way or the other.

The two terms used most often in Max's world are counter and counter balance. On rare occasions I have heard the term counter-rotation - but the context is of counter not counter-rotation as you have described it. It's purpose has nothing to do with rotation either to induce or resist it, but as one of a set of tools to control the amount of edging of the skis.

Counter balance - the c-shape of the body that will result if you roll your ankles and also you'll get some of it if you bias your pressure on one ski.

Counter - hips pointed to the outside of the turn rather than square up with the direction of the skis.

Counter rotation - I normally never hear this term within the PMTS community but on occassions when I have heard it the context and description match 'counter' above.

Counter and Counter balance combine with inclination from the turn itself to create edging to drive a carve. The third most prevelant way I see people create edging is pointing the knees in towards the inside of the turn. This can happen by just pointing the knees in directly or by rotating the legs into the direction of the turn - ahead of the turn - which will result in some knee pointing. This type of eding in a PMTS context are considered a no-no. The reasons it's a no no in a PMTS context are that it is considered a weak position skeletally and potentially dangerous to the knee.

John Clendenon does not teach the use of counter other than what happens as the turn develops. HH teaches early use of counter to help engage the skis higher into the arc.

It's fun to play with counter and counter-balance in railroad turns to see their effect in that context. I'd be interested in hearing other categories of edging for controlling a carve other than counter/inclination/counter-balance/knee pointing or expounding on those methods.

I'm still digesting the pronation comment. When I counter, the edging to the BTE increases (same as pronation which is rolling to the BTE). I don't get that comment. I'll go back and read it some more.

In running I'm an over-pronator and without a stabilty shoe I'll roll and push off my big toe rather than more the center of my foot. Moving the hips to the outside of the turn increases the roll to that BTE.

Therein lies the great confusion between PMTS and many others. First of all, for you to be able to counter your hips, your femur will *HAVE* to rotate in the hip socket. HH is not being completely precise when he removes the word "rotation" from his vocabulary. PMTS skiers have their femurs rotating in their hip sockets also, the only difference is that they are not conciously doing it. I've heard some people refer to it as passive vs active, different types of muscle use, bla bla bla. In this context related to counter...we aren't talking about trying to turn the skiis rotationally. We're talking about turning the femur in the hip socket through one means or another in order to facilitate the pelvis turning outwards. It is my belief that PMTS uses a mental model that does not focus on the word "rotation" because the truth is a lot of skiers do overdue it and pivot their skiis on the snow too much. HH is trying to stop that from happening. However, it is not bio-mechanically correct to say that there is no rotation involved in counter.

The rest of the world calls it counter and angulation.

there is much mis-use of various words to mean different things. This is one reason that I don't particularly like the word "counter-balance" instead of angulation. Angulation works perfectly fine and I prefer one and only one concept with the word counter in it. Some people may use the words counter-rotation, historically, for various reasons. They may confuse it with "anticipation" or they may be simply trying to emphasize a point since many skiers rotate their hips and upper body ahead of their skiis in the wrong direction. Therefore it is sometimes useful to discuss this with them and then tell them to "counter-rotate" instead of "rotate" at the waist. To my knowledge, the words "counter-rotate" have nothing to do with femur rotation.

aka, Angulation. In the 30's or 40's it was referred to as the "comma position".

Exactly. As far as I know, same every else.

There is an EXCELLENT article in the Supporter's section which explains this concept and actually the whole thread that discusses it is one of the best ski threads I have ever seen! Become a supporter and read the article and thread. I myself have a known issue with my right foot and suponation. Now I can't wait to get up on the snow and make a more concerted effort with my turns to the left to counter earlier and a little bit more at the start as a way to induce a better pronation on that side. Footbeds are supposed to help this too, but I know my turns are a little weaker from that side...and this actually explains a lot of it for me. Actually Rick pretty much explained this in one or two sentences in his last post. Combine that with my comments about femur rotation during counter and it should make sense.

Exactly...

Hi John,

Been a while, good to hear from you again. Thanks for the PMTS term usage descriptions. I do have a pretty good handle on them now, but it's good for others who might not. I'll address some of your comments;

Counter and counter rotation get used interchangably over here on occasion too, but were gradually getting people educated. I suspect the reason you only hear it used rarely in PMTSville is because most of the teachers over "in your world" understand the distinct definitions too, and by true definition counter rotation is not something PMTS teaches.

Yes, what John is teaching I call skiing into counter. What harald is teaching is good for high C neophytes, to help them get solid pressure on the old inside (uphill) ski, but one has to be careful to not end up over countered in the body of the turn as a result. A good stepping stone though.

I'll add one thing to your first sentence for you. "counter and counter balance combine with inclination to create edging and balance". Balance is really what it's all about. Balancing requirements dictate how much counter balance movement is employed.

And I understand the knee pointing turn you speak of. It's receives a big from me also. It's very common in skiers who are intent on remaining rotationally square through the turn,,, those who consider any counter a bad thing. It's a dying holdover philosophy born of technical misunderstandings that originated in the early days of shape skis. It's usefulness is limited. Inefficient and dangerous at higher speeds

It's a different biomechanical concept from tipping/edging, John. Think of countering without edging. It's based on the principle of how a foot naturally rolls from supination into pronation as one takes a forward step. As one steps forward with the swing foot, the pressure on the stance foot shifts from aft to fore, the hips rotate toward the stance foot, and the stance foot shifts from supination to pronation.

The same process occurs as one moves through a turn transition. Pressure is directed to the front of the ski as the hips move to square and then into counter for the new turn. This movement pattern pronates the stance foot, which directs pressure to the big toe edge of the stance ski as tipping commences. It's a useful and interesting concept to come to understand, and another benefit of employing counter.

Anyway, glad you dropped in. I'll be starting a thread soon that would greatly benefit from your input. Been developing the idea for it the last couple days. Should be out very shortly,,, hope you'll jump in.

borntoski, I was composing my post and didn't see your's till after I posted. Sorry where I duplicated what you said, your responses are very good.

Just a point of clarification...
It is my understanding of HH's presentation that PMTS addresses this issue with the concept of "passive rotation". The technical descriptions of counter that I've read in his books and web postings and seen in his video are bio-mechanically correct, specifically covering rotary movement of the femur within the hip socket.