The Ultimate Carving System

Whiteroom, I don't mean for this to be in ANY way insulting to you, but ...
ALLOWING your SKIS to carve (and NOT twisting/steering/turning them yourself) is actually the most correct and efficient carving [and perhaps the only way to avoid, at least early, skidding].
If he has stumbled on a system that has taught him to use his shaped skis as they were designed and allow them to do the turning, then he is fortunate to have received the esoteric wisdom that you seemed to miss.
My friend, you may indeed carve, and carve correctly, but you are using the wrong terminology and description and unintentionally misleading Eazyrider.

Anyway, kudos to Cirquerider on the truest wisdom.

Grasshopper, may I suggest you check out Whiteroom's profile and previous posts in this forum. I have it on good authority that he *really* knows what he is talking about and is well aware of the concept of letting the skis "do the work".

YOT

Sorry to burst your bubble ant egg, but I repeat, your guru *really* used the wrong terminology.
If he's honest, and cares about the guy asking the question rather than just waving...he will admit this.
Like I was gracious enough to suggest, perhaps he carves just fine himself. And, I will add, maybe he even knows post facto that what he said was wrong, but he still said it. I was just trying to avoid an unintentional misunderstanding on the part of Eazyrider.

Who is that masked skier that just blew by the ones that others have it on "good authority" that they weren't just blown off?

Geez, why do I spend (waste?) my time on these...?

I read Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier, and found that it contradicted what was said on the website, which made the whole thing rather confusing. It may work for some, but not for others.

Bs"D

Hear this all yee Epicurians:

Harald Harb does sometimes contradict himself (although only rarely, and most times it is the legitamate difficulty of trying to describe intricate skiing moves with a very limited set of language tools - although he does far better than anyone else in his attempt).

I was actually kicked off the PMTS forum by the false diety himself because I dared to point out that he contradicted himself in posts to me in a certain thread where I questioned the validity of what he was saying. So, you can believe and trust me in what I am about to say (for your own good in my opinion).

PMTS represents the highest expression of correct and most effective carving technique - basically correctly anaylizing and articulating what the best World Cup racers are actually doing.

Harald Harb may be undiplomatic (he was even egotistically immoral in his cover up of his mistakes which I pionted out), but he is still the greatest ski authority today - THE icon of instruction - light years ahead of all others. And, its not just a matter of better. PMTS is teaching a whole different set of fundementals - again, the ones truly being used by the best skiers in the world. Despite my personal mistreatment by him, I can easily admit the above because I have learned so much from him. [And, for your info YoungOldTimer (not from ego, but for the sake of your accepting what I'm trying to help you with), I can ski circles around most all PSIA ski instructors I have seen at any resort.]
And, ironically, it is exactly due to the extreme superiority of clarity of language, terminolgy, and exactness of description (my earlier point in this very thread) that sets him apart from the rest. Even though even he is only human (although he may argue with me on that) and can sometimes be unclear. Skiing, if you want to do it on the highest level, is not non-complicated. Therefore, also ironically, Wear the Fox Hat's complaint].

If you want a small example of the stark difference of ski technique discussion between what often (although not always) takes place here, and PMTS, look here at a thread started by this same Max: http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/...pic.php?t=1165
But, beware, it is somewhat advanced.
For more basic stuff, refer to the online link which Max sited.

Don't want to listen. Don't want to take it, even from a guy that obviously isn't brainwashed by and isn't even on the forum of "the cult". Don't. Your loss.
Still, I applaud Cirqueridres wise comment: Wishing everyone lots of smiles and fun.

Bs"D

I don't know who put that "mad" face on my post or why. But, I didn't put it there.

BTW, I edited the above post to site this link:
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/...pic.php?t=1165

Ski patroller must heve felt an obstacle needed to be marked for the safety of the skiers. Hahaha.

Really nice skiing by Max in that thread.

Agreed, but then it should have been placed before the mumbo jumbo which leads them to picking up speed and becoming out of control on terrain too advanced for the BS which they still can't get (because its BS) after years of "lessons".

This all started because of YoungOldTimer's shallow words. Lets end it here in agreement (and in the spirit of the last posts) that we can benefit from being open to all who are trying to sincerely help their fellow skier.

Let's be very clear about this: This statement is a point of contention and no where near a point of unanimity from those who are both excellent teachers and excellent skiers.

If one wants to learn from books (and can... a point about which another argument could be made), those are interesting places to start, but I'd add in Weems' book (http://www.edgechange.com/), the DesLauriers' book, R. Mark Ellings' book, Ron LeMaster's books, and even posts on this web site (the various Bob Barnes' illustrations among them). I would strongly discourage anyone from getting all of their information from one source. I have not discovered any topic for which a single person has become the fount of all knowledge, and skiing certainly doesn't have one!

Also, pick up some DVDs of great skiing (I would suggest the Winning Runs DVDs available on the USST web site as a starting point). I would also second WTFH's suggestion: you are at a level that would greatly benefit from attending an ESA event (http://esa.epicski.com/).

Good luck!

ssh, did you deliberately ignore these words?

And, I wonder if you recall my post of a few days ago complimenting you on your use of animations (not taken from PMTS) to explain to the guy who wanted to still wedel (m11B5 consideration) the difference between 1960s and modern techinique.

Your statement of "disagreement" falsely implies that someone who is of the opinion that PMTS is superior to all else (in its entirety) is automatically saying that all else is useless. This is distorting the truth (as proven from the above two examples), and I wonder if with the motive to gain adherents (or keep them locked in - exactly opposite to your professed philosophy) by atttacting them with the eclectic draw (or trying to turn them off to what you claim is non-eclectic).

Why do you freak out every time someone says that PMTS is better in his opinion? Does being open to all truth from whereever it comes from by force negate the possibility that one source may be better than the other?
And, by the way, although I do agree that there is good to be derived from multiple sources (as the whole point of this post), I also believe that sometimes this very all inclusive philosophy is what holds many back. Again, many fundementals are in direct opposition between PMTS and TTS.
I have seen video footage of Weems. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't think that anyone should emulate him. I think that his skiing (in general) is inferior when compared to the best. I don't want to digress now into the details, but he is skiing with a completely different mutually exclusive method than what is seen in Max's montage. Everyone is obviously free to choose what they prefer, but all inclusive mixture is a myth.
However, to repeat, one can certainly learn individual truths from many sources, and nobody has got the whole truth sealed. There are also some areas of universal agreement. That is why I could compliment you on those animations, even if they didn't represent to me the ultimate perfection of all considerations. They certainly were effective for the point you were trying to make to that guy.

I don't mean to insult you by saying that I think that you are biased and self serving (I think that you mean very well, but might be a bit stuck in your own interests), but there is a big difference between our levels of neutrality. You are part of the PSIA system and this site, but I am not part of PMTS. I tried to make that point earlier.

I repeat for all those who would benefit from it from a neutral voice, check out PMTS. Or don't, I don't have an axe to grind, and am probably wasting my time here anyway.

Good luck to all.

Just a few thoughts on this, since I think you misinterpreted my comments, RadRab: PMTS specifically states that it is the only way to learn to ski. Therefore, someone who reads PMTS to the exclusion of all else will be taught that. I know many people more experienced than I who disagree with this, so thought it important to state.

I didn't (and don't) "freak out." However, PMTS is a point of contention here, and has a site dedicated to its promulgation. EpicSki is not dedicated to any particular school of skiing thought, and is populated by experts from many different perspectives (PSIA, CSIA, USSCA, BASI, PMTS, and others). Your comment about "direct opposition between PMTS and TTS" belies a bias that likely isn't borne out in practice in my experience.

I have skied with Weems. I think the vast majority of people on the planet would benefit from emulating his attitude and joy of life. His skiing is darn good, as well. Don't think that a limited video experience demonstrates anyone's capabilities extensively. Especially when they have demonstration backgrounds like the PSIA D Team does (Weems was a member at one point in his career).

You're also jumping to a very big conclusion about me. Yes, I am certainly involved with this site, but my interest is in the open exchange of information. PMTS's philosophy bothers me far more than its teaching methods. It's a deliberately closed approach to instruction. Given that such an attitude is diametrically opposed to the purpose of EpicSki, I like to nip that in the bud.

Note that I didn't say folks shouldn't check out PMTS. Only that it should be part of a broader exploration. And I stand by those comments.

I selected PMTS for the very reason that it bothers you. From the very first step it tells the student exactly what to do. While you consider that to be a weakness I consider it to be a strength.

For an example of what I mean consider one of the many technical discussions on Epic and then put yourself in the role of a novice skier. So many options, so many different opinions, how is a novice to sort through it all? PMTS does away with that type of confusion.

Right or wrong its worked wonders for my skiing.

RadRab
Your rabbinical training and the philosophical arguments that develop from arguing points of the torah come shining thru in your posts.
I'm not sure if thats a good thing or not when it comes to skiing.
I am sorry you were banned over on PMTS. I mostly enjoyed your posts.
PMTS forum is a very focused place, ruled with an iron hand by HH.: The quality of info on ski instruction is outstanding.

Epic is more freewheeling and fun, though the instructional threads are of widely varying quality. A novice or intermediate skier could have a really difficult time discerning which reply was valid or not.

Again, I must agree completey w/ Max.
This is what I meant in my last post:
"I also believe that sometimes this very all inclusive philosophy is what holds many back."

Also, not only is it too difficult for a bigger (I would say even an aspiring expert) to sort through all of the different options and methods, but what is he to do when they contradict one another? [And this is even if he can understand from the unclear or non-uniform terminology what the heck is even being described.]

And, even if you want to say that there are not conflicting moves or methods amoung all of the different schools of thought (of course there are), much of them certainly conflict with PMTS' clear consistant movements. This is what I meant with:
"Again, many fundementals are in direct opposition between PMTS and TTS."

For example, you simply cannot both release by way of retraction/flexion and by up-unweighting - they are opossites.
The flip side: You cannot both be extended in the transition by up-unweighting (and therefore sink down through the turn driving the knee), and also achieve maximum extension and skelatal alignment at the apex of the turn when the forces are greatest. They are opposite and mutually exclusive.

One of these methods is the one being taught by ski instructors - the same as it was taught for many years. And the other is being used on the World Cup at the highest levels and working wonders for many every day free skiers.

Come on ssh, even if you reject PMTS (for whatever your reasons), you should know that the eclectic myth is a farce.

But, really, honestly, I don't know why I am doing this.
I don't really care that much. I don't really care if eazyrider chooses to take lessons from Weems or not.
I don't care if you don't understand that PMTS is indeed capturing the correct technique or not. Or, even if you do undrstand and refuse to admit. Why do I care? I really am not sure. Gosh, its just skiing - not even my own.

But, I guess its just offensive in its counter-productiveness every time you try to "nip it (the guys hope in our opinion) in the bud". And, just obnoxious in its "oh no, we don't let you get away with thinking, and maybe getting others to think, that there is something better than us in our neighborhood".

And, oh yeah, I guess I should give you the same latitude since I only saw one clip of you skiing. Sorry guy. Max, after just a few years of learning, but with the help of PMTS, far surpasses you in technical ability IMO. Oh shoot, that's gotta hurt, I'm sorry. Really, you seem like a good guy (and Max probably is embarrassed at my words). I'm just telling it as I see it. And, I wouldn't feel any need to say so if you weren't trying so hard to always nip the truth in the bud.

Bs"D

Thanks LCS - whoever you are.

Anyway, like I said above, I don't know why I do this. I think you are right that it is not a good thing. Every once and a while its a diversion.
I'm going to quit really.

Bs"D

Hey, what do you mean "mostly"?!

Rabdab,
I can see how you wouldn't last long on HH's site.

PMTS holds that deliberate rotary movements and anything except carving are bad.

Many people feel that deliberate rotary movements are legit, see for example any bump-skiing thread. These people will disagree with you that PMTS is the pinacle of skiing as we know it. Ssh was just pointing that out.

Here on Epicski almost all opinions are entertained. That's what I like about it.

Could we please stop hijacking the thread now?

Just as you suggest, you pick one mentor and follow him. Or one school of thought. Until you're ready to pick-and-choose. Perhaps not in a single turn, but you certainly can through the course of a few turns. And I find that flexibility and broad skill base exhilarating. YMMV. Feel free to stick to a very small set of skills. The various coaches that I know all encourage a broad base of skills as opposed to a very narrow set. Which ski instructors? None that I've worked with in the past three seasons. But, I am sure there are those who teach outmoded techniques. Nope, I don't. But, you pretty much made your point here: Again, you're jumping to conclusions that just aren't true. But, that's your prerogative. You've managed to maintain a prejudice towards me based on the fact that I've gotten a couple levels of PSIA certification. I'm sure I'll never convince you that your bias is blinding you. It's fascinating to me that you'd bring my skiing into this, especially given the purpose of the various clips of me that are posted here. But, you've demonstrated your ignorant bias clearly. The reader may decide for him- or herself.

Sorry, Ghost... I was creating my post while you posted this. I'll step out of this now, as I was planning to do anyway.

Bs"D

I'm stepping out of after this too.

Funny how the first time you use the word ignorant is when I bring your skiing into it.

Again, how can you look this forum in the face and claim that I am biased after, not only my critisism of HH (in addition to my great praise), but my compliment to you when you were good and on. ??

Finally, what I think is not really very important (just put it out there for whoever might benefit from it), but I do agree with you that there is room for a quiver of skills and using different methods in different situations. But, you shouldn't think that this is completely non-PMTS. Have a look at this current thread about the "brushed carve" [but, not only does HH still suggest a higher goal, but the whole idea of the "mixed bag of tricks" certainly doesn't apply to anyone who hasn't yet mastered the basics - and this is most all whom I have seen]:

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/...pic.php?t=1203

Despite ssh's last ugly (false) words, it was probably my fault. You can't tell a guy in his neighborhood, where he probably is one of the better skiers (everything is relative), and looked up to, and contributes so generously, that he is lacking in his skiing, just because to a higher standard you believe he is.

Despite your very weak ending to this legitamate well intended dialog (HH has certainly behaved even much worse), I want to end off with warm wishes for a great winter. All the best fellow skier and skiers.

What flavor Kool-Aide do they serve with the PMTS???

any one you want

Cherry, lime, orange.

Hold up a sec there. PMTS does not encourage a narrow skill set, however, it does hold that some skills are non-optimal and thus encourages their replacement with skills seen to provide a greater benefit. It is narrower than a completely inclusive philosophy but that does not make it narrow in a manner that necessarily limits skiing advancement. That's a personal decision based on what you believe good skiing to be.

It is simply ones perogative if they are willing to accept the teachings of PMTS and its set of skiing principles as well as its definition of what skiing improvement is. This is true of any program which aims to advance skiers in this manner. Some skiers aren't interested in this vision and enjoy the process of experiencing the fuller spectrum of learning to pick and choose what they want. One cannot tell another which is right for them.

As for carving, either approach can get you there. PMTS streamlines the path to carving in a general manner, but a coach giving personalized feedback can probably speed-up the process considerably. Basic carving on modern skis is not hard and I have found it to be mostly a process of simplifying ones skiing by reducing or eliminating movements that prevent it. It is all the effort spent trying to make a ski carve by ineffective movements that is hard.

onyxjl, you removed my comment from its context. I was responding specifically to the concept that one cannot use both retraction and extension to initiate turns (or use both extension at transition and extension at the apex). I believe that one can (not simultaneously, of course, but as I noted in that paragraph as part of an overall skillset). There are times when extension may serve better than retraction, so I think it's nice to have it in the arsenal. I also find it fascinating that someone would think that these concepts are not part of all ski instructional systems today. They are certainly part of the PSIA approach (for example, that long outside leg at the apex is a specific topic of the 2005 Skiing Concepts communicated by the Demo Team). Exactly my point. We agree completely. This discussion started with a post that claimed that, "PMTS represents the highest expression of correct and most effective carving technique..." My response is that this is not a claim without its detractors, so should be taken as an opinion that is not necessarily widely accepted. As is often (but not always) the case here on EpicSki, some who support PMTS do so by dissing other methods. I find that approach anathema. Once again, PMTS is a teaching system. PSIA is an educational association. They are apples and oranges. PMTS is a system developed by one person and adopted by a number of folks. PSIA-based instructors are free to develop their own or to adopt those created by others, providing it develops the skiers' skills and thus results in effective skiing.

Contrary to what some think, I have no beef with PMTS or Harald Harb (two of his books are right here next to my recliner!). I do have a beef with those who claim that PMTS is the "only" or "best" way to reach effective skiing. Such a claim is baseless and demonstrates ignorance of the wider world of ski education.

- Most PSIA types teach an up move as the foundation transition technique.

- Most PSIA folks have no concept of arc to arc skiing (high C carving in Harbspeak)

- Most PSIA'ers use active steering rotary to turn their skis.

*******************


* SAY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO LITTLE ELSE WILL BEGIN TO BELIEVE IT.

* NEVER LET THE TRUTH GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD MARKETING PLAN.

Cirquerider: Thanks for the cleanup on Isle 5... People were tracking sticky stuff all over the store.

Perhaps Epic needs a separate forum for evangelical PMTS or PSIA threads? Then, whenever someone comes down with The Fever and starts foaming, we can just move their posts over there. The rest of us could then surf the forums peacfully and avoid the antagonism.

I've no objections to people supporting a particular technique or school-of-thought - just to the maniacal religious fervor and rightous outrage that often accompanies overzealous support.


Are you talking about skiing schools-of-thought here or Conservative Talk Radio and Fox News?

.ma

My final word on the subject:

A new member who decides to read a thread entitled "Advising New Posters on Carving" will certainly have more questions after reading this thread. Whether they will be encouraged to post their questions or discouraged from doing so is not as clear.

Perhaps changing the title to "A Civil Discussion on PTMS" would be a better choice. I ordinarily would be the last one to suggest moderators change/move/delete threads and posts that are not clearly offensive or malicious, but considering that the existence of this thread and the thread's title are the results of such meddling, changing the tiltle to reflect the content of the thread might be an acceptable change.

If Easyrider or other new members who are looking for advise on carving here, some suggestions;

No, you are probably not carving. Examine your tracks to see if they are clean arcs.

You should take a lesson and/or read a book.

Observe good skiers.

When you see that you have left clean tracks, try to remember what it felt like.

Do it again.

I like the final thought in the second post. "...kudos to Cirquerider on the truest wisdom." Removed from it's previous context, it now appears to be a response to the first post in this thread. Pretty funny, no?