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What's the diff?

post #1 of 74
Thread Starter 
Instructor turns vs. racing/coached turns.

What's the diff? Philosophy? Movement? None?

Inquiring minds want to know!
post #2 of 74
Yes. Inquiring minds want to know. And are their coaches for people who don't race:.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Your goals happen to align with Fastmans -- good for you both!.

Fastman would not be the "go-to-guy" at the bell. While his knowledge may be profound, by his own admission, his goals are exclusionary.

Sorry Rick. IMO, you'd make a better coach than an instructor.

And from there, I'll start a thread.
post #3 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Instructor turns vs. racing/coached turns.

What's the diff? Philosophy? Movement? None?

Inquiring minds want to know!
are we talking CSIA? because they seem to be very different for instructor turns vs the race coach guys...

the austrians on the other hand....
post #4 of 74

Whats the Diff?

E. this is just my answer to your question. I'm not an expert on anything to do with skiing. From my perspective:

Coach - Race: Speed,technique, skills

Instructor - look good, technique, skills
post #5 of 74
I am neither a coach nor an instructor, but grasp is this: a race coach wants you to carve as cleanly as possible with optimal form and aerodynamics (tuck) with no skidding to go as fast as possible.

An instructor wants you to get down the mountain in one piece with as little effort as possible to make it as enjoyable as possible with some carving and lots of skidding, keeping speeds moderate.
post #6 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Yes. Inquiring minds want to know. And are their coaches for people who don't race:.
Ghost, I really think there's a need for this. I believe there's a large silent market out there lurking in the shadows that is presently not being well served.

Imagine: a group of adults who are enthusiastic about devoting themselves to the goal of becoming great skiers,,, joining a team of similarly minded people who for the entire season come out a couple/few days a week to train with a top notch coach and develop a skill/foundation base that's known, possessed and understood by very few others in the sport.

I picture it structured like a race team, only designed for adults who will develop the same broad based set of foundation skills racers learn, and use them not to win races, but to ski the entire mountain in a whole new way, with utter confidence and competence.

Am I crazy?
post #7 of 74
No Fastman, but you've described the various Masters programmes that operate at some resorts in Australia. I did Mountain Masters for 3 years; there was a Racing Masters programme and we were an offshoot of that. Interestingly, the Mountain Masters stream was set up by one of the participants, who'd joined the race programme but didn't want to race, he wanted all the other stuff.
post #8 of 74
Thanks for the info, Ant.

When I ran the Copper Mtn. junior race program a number of years ago I had a similar all season skill development program set up for racer parents who were interested. It was pretty popular. It was structured under the auspices of the race program so we were able to keep the cost modest.

I just don't see many similar offerings over here these days. They seem few and far between.
post #9 of 74
I too reckon there's a silent market out there, amongst locals and season pass holders. The Masters programme was linked to seasons passes; if you enrolled in any of the sports programmes, you got a good deal on your pass. From memory, Copper have some social-ish group of oldies who ski together, but I agree that a focussed, results-orientated programme at a resort with a decent local population would find a market.
post #10 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant View Post
From memory, Copper have some social-ish group of oldies who ski together, but I agree that a focussed, results-orientated programme at a resort with a decent local population would find a market.
I think Steve leads that group...
post #11 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy View Post
I am neither a coach nor an instructor, but grasp is this: a race coach wants you to carve as cleanly as possible with optimal form and aerodynamics (tuck) with no skidding to go as fast as possible.

An instructor wants you to get down the mountain in one piece with as little effort as possible to make it as enjoyable as possible with some carving and lots of skidding, keeping speeds moderate.

in this case I think I had better sack my instructors... they keep making me put in way too much effort I can cruise around all day without getting tired if I don't have a lesson with them... and they get really annoyed at my attempts to moderate speed as well...
post #12 of 74
Rick, you pretty much described our Adult programs at Bridger Bowl. we have them for both women and men. From green level to all mountain including hiking. On the weekends we have the kids programs, that go from beginer to all mountian, including hiking also.

We also have our 9 week MSU, (university classes) that span from beginer level to "extreme" (not my word choice). The MSU classes come with one credit if you just show up. MSU draws alot of kids that want to ski while they go to school. Later, RicB.
post #13 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Imagine: a group of adults who are enthusiastic about devoting themselves to the goal of becoming great skiers,,, joining a team of similarly minded people who for the entire season come out a couple/few days a week to train with a top notch coach and develop a skill/foundation base that's known, possessed and understood by very few others in the sport.

I picture it structured like a race team, only designed for adults who will develop the same broad based set of foundation skills racers learn, and use them not to win races, but to ski the entire mountain in a whole new way, with utter confidence and competence.

Am I crazy?
nope - that would be my idea of heaven...
post #14 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Yes. Inquiring minds want to know. And are their coaches for people who don't race:.
I've accomplished this through having regular lessons with the same instructor over the winter. I set out some goals at the start and we work towards them over the next set of lessons.

Also, I doubt I've been taught anything that doesn't work in a race course.
post #15 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy View Post
I am neither a coach nor an instructor, but grasp is this: a race coach wants you to carve as cleanly as possible with optimal form and aerodynamics (tuck) with no skidding to go as fast as possible.

An instructor wants you to get down the mountain in one piece with as little effort as possible to make it as enjoyable as possible with some carving and lots of skidding, keeping speeds moderate.
This seems to be a pretty commonly held viewpoint, and while there's some truth in it, there's also a fair bit I would say needs changing.

IMO, a good coach or instructor works from a skills standpoint - give the skier the skills he needs and the ability to put them together in different ways, and then you can have him skiing however is necessary.

While being able to cleanly carve and have a good tuck are both highly important skills for racing, if that's all you can do you're not going to make it very far. You actually see that with a lot of young racers - they can carve down a course well and get good times, but once they move up and get some challenging courses where they can't just set an edge and ride it, they have serious problems unless they have the skills to adapt their skiing.

It's really the same with instructing - you give the students the skills and show them how to use them and they can do anything from there. In a lot of cases you will see an emphasis on skidding and speed control at the lower levels, but any half-decent instructor isn't going teach an advanced to expert student to ski with as little effort as possible and skid his turns.

An advanced student is going to use some of the same skills as a beginner (stance & balance, pivoting), but will combine them with more advanced skills (edging, pressure control) to get a much more powerful and dynamic outcome.

All skiing from a basic wedge to a WC turn uses the same skill set, it's just how you put those skills together that makes the difference, and a good instructor or coach will work based on that principle.
post #16 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy View Post
I am neither a coach nor an instructor, but grasp is this: a race coach wants you to carve as cleanly as possible with optimal form and aerodynamics (tuck) with no skidding to go as fast as possible.

An instructor wants you to get down the mountain in one piece with as little effort as possible to make it as enjoyable as possible with some carving and lots of skidding, keeping speeds moderate.

Gee that is kind of a depressing look at it but I can see a little in what you are saying. Lets look at a couple of things about the 2 situations you mention. 1 The race coach for the most part has a controlled enviroment i.e. closed course/trail with which to do their stuff. They can let the kids go fast, as there are no other skiers/riders that are going to get in the way, each racer goes one at a time thru the course and tries to maximize speed and minimize time. That's the extent of my knowledge of ski racing. As a ski instructor I would love to have a group of top notch athletes with a closed trail to play on, if the conditions were good and the skiers were up to the task we would rip it up too. We don't get this, we are out in the general public and have to be aware of all things happening around us and the guests we are responsible for. We usually have a bit of a split in ability level that can be quite extreme some days. I think race coaches have a tighter set of skiers as far as ability level is concerned with which they train.
2. I do try to show people how to use less effort to ski so they can ski for 6-8 hours a day, they don't need to go full bore 100% of the time. Lets make it easier on them, especially adults so they can spend the day on the slopes not in the lodge recovering. Ski racers run a 30 sec to maybe 2 min race , they go all out, ride lift go back to top and wait in line to do it again. During race day they get 2 runs like that , they don't have to save any energy for a whole day, except when training.
Ski instructors have a population they work with that have much more diverse reasons they are out there than the race coaches skiers. He/she usually has kids/athletes that want to be there and want to go real fast and that is the enviroment they are getting. I'll ask guest why they are in lessons and what they want out of it, and almost every adult I have ever asked I get the same ,I mean the exact same wording every time." I want to feel more in control ". That pretty much means "show me how my brakes work". Racers, especially kids don't ask for that stuff.
post #17 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowbowler View Post
I'll ask guest why they are in lessons and what they want out of it, and almost every adult I have ever asked I get the same ,I mean the exact same wording every time." I want to feel more in control ". That pretty much means "show me how my brakes work". .
is that really what they mean? or what you think they mean? or the fastest way to give them what they want?

My instructors spent a heap of time teaching me to feel more in control while going faster...

My motto for years was "momentum is your friend" I was told this regularly....
post #18 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
is that really what they mean? or what you think they mean? or the fastest way to give them what they want?

My instructors spent a heap of time teaching me to feel more in control while going faster...

My motto for years was "momentum is your friend" I was told this regularly....
I'm sure any racer who missed a gate wanted to be more in control too. I want to be more in control, so I can go faster with better balance without getting bent out of shape by an errant bump and be able to direct my path more exactly and instantly at warp speeds so I don't have to slow down as much for the moguls that crop up on the runs that are too steep to be groomed but still hold lots of snow.
post #19 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I'm sure any racer who missed a gate wanted to be more in control too. I want to be more in control, so I can go faster with better balance without getting bent out of shape by an errant bump and be able to direct my path more exactly and instantly at warp speeds so I don't have to slow down as much for the moguls that crop up on the runs that are too steep to be groomed but still hold lots of snow.


exactly... control does not MEAN it has to be slower... it means CONTROL...
post #20 of 74
This isn't meant to offend anyone, but to have this kind of "all mountain" coaching and programs, you do need a mountain that offers the right challenges at the highest levels with terrain and conditions. Otherwise you are simply increasing the diffuclty of the task.

Even at other mountains in our division that have the terrain and conditions, I know of no other that has the depth of winter long programs that Bridger has. Though there might be others, I just may not know of them.

Many students stay with the programs for years and years. Not because they learn slow or can't ski on there own, but because there is always some terrain or combination of terrain and conditions at our mountain that they have yet to visit or master, and they enjoy doing this with like minded people. As the skill levels of the groups increase, it does become much more of a coaching relationship rather than an instructional relationship.

We try very hard to get cohesive, compatible groups. If the groups are too large, we seperate more on attitude, like hot, medium, or mild. At the highest level it might break down to who wants to hike and who doesn't. It is the most enjoyable form of teaching for me as I really like the long term continuity and the relationships that develope. Later, RicB.
post #21 of 74
I'll ask guest why they are in lessons and what they want out of it, and almost every adult I have ever asked I get the same ,I mean the exact same wording every time." I want to feel more in control ". That pretty much means "show me how my brakes work". Racers, especially kids don't ask for that stuff.[/quote]

I too have heard the same words from many of my students, especially novices and low-end intermediates. I do not interpret their remarks as a quest for slow skiing but rather as a desire for improved balance. Almost invariably as soon as their balance improves they say "Yeah, I feel a lot more in control" And usually they are actually skiing faster since I try always to teach using maximum speed from minimum terrain. Get them standing in the centre of their skis with a bias toward weight on the outside ski and that sense of control will come.

cdnguy
post #22 of 74
The free skiing turn of an instructor sets the line of the

instructor's will.

The race turn responds to a preexisting line of the

course-setter's will.


The tactical and technical differences are striking.

One can be a top-shelf freeskiing instructor, and still "fall apart" in a rutted, arythmic

course.



Hem
post #23 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemingway View Post
The tactical and technical differences are striking.

One can be a top-shelf freeskiing instructor, and still "fall apart" in a rutted, arythmic course.
While you're certainly right that it's possible a top notch instructor *can* fall apart in a course, it's really only a question of experience with the tactics necessary for racing. Regardless of what sort of turns you're doing, it's all using the same skills. A truely skilled instructor shouldn't need much more than a bit of coaching on line and slight changes in how to blend the skills mixed with some practice to become pretty competent in gates.
post #24 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckInstructor View Post
While you're certainly right that it's possible a top notch instructor *can* fall apart in a course, it's really only a question of experience with the tactics necessary for racing. Regardless of what sort of turns you're doing, it's all using the same skills. A truely skilled instructor shouldn't need much more than a bit of coaching on line and slight changes in how to blend the skills mixed with some practice to become pretty competent in gates.

I respectfully disagree.

The skills employed diverge considerably.

Hem
post #25 of 74
In my humble opinion...

I think ALL skiers were at some point "instructed". We were all never-evers once, and we had someone give us the basics so that we could negotiate the mountain safely. Someone to teach us the Responsibility Code. Someone to get us hooked! After that the sky was the limit. Some people chose to be "Coached" in a race program or a freestyle program (for moguls or parks), and some chose to move forward in a more recreational sense. Taking lessons from certified Pros here and there.

To me, the differences are glaring, but not so much that it isn't still skiing! I feel that racing, being very performance based (time), is very regimented because it needs to be. But it carries with it a very dictated feel. "I have to turn here, here, here, and here - and I have to do it quickly, technique be damned in some cases - or I have failed". I see it as a realm of skiing that only the very strong and athletic can truly excel at. The weak are winnowed out early! How often do you see top racers at the WC level with pencil necks and chicken legs?

While instructing, in an effort to be student based, runs a wider spectrum and can sometimes get watered down. But it also allows for a wider variety of person to take it in. Top instructors are capable of showing literally thousands of people how to enjoy the sport of skiing not only for its sporting merit, but for its asthetic value as well. The outdoors, the wildlife, the blue skies, the viscious sun-burn... all that stuff!

Anyway I'm rambling for no good reason. Ski instructors are watching top racers for the moves and teaching them, in a digestible fashion, to beginners (and Int/Adv). Who, in turn, may choose to become the top racers of the future. While there are huge differences in philosophy, I think we're all on the same continent, at least.

How come people want a "penny for your thoughts", but you have to put in 2 cents? (I saw that somewhere recently. Apologies if I stole it from someone here!)

Spag

PS. Bode Miller is a "top notch" racer, is he not? He's perfectly capable of knocking two teeth out every time he runs. So am I for that matter. He's just going much faster when he does it.
post #26 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
In my humble opinion...

I think ALL skiers were at some point "instructed". We were all never-evers once, and we had someone give us the basics so that we could negotiate the mountain safely. Someone to teach us the Responsibility Code. Someone to get us hooked! After that the sky was the limit. Some people chose to be "Coached" in a race program or a freestyle program (for moguls or parks), and some chose to move forward in a more recreational sense. Taking lessons from certified Pros here and there.

To me, the differences are glaring, but not so much that it isn't still skiing! I feel that racing, being very performance based (time), is very regimented because it needs to be. But it carries with it a very dictated feel. "I have to turn here, here, here, and here - and I have to do it quickly, technique be damned in some cases - or I have failed". I see it as a realm of skiing that only the very strong and athletic can truly excel at. The weak are winnowed out early! How often do you see top racers at the WC level with pencil necks and chicken legs?

While instructing, in an effort to be student based, runs a wider spectrum and can sometimes get watered down. But it also allows for a wider variety of person to take it in. Top instructors are capable of showing literally thousands of people how to enjoy the sport of skiing not only for its sporting merit, but for its asthetic value as well. The outdoors, the wildlife, the blue skies, the viscious sun-burn... all that stuff!

Anyway I'm rambling for no good reason. Ski instructors are watching top racers for the moves and teaching them, in a digestible fashion, to beginners (and Int/Adv). Who, in turn, may choose to become the top racers of the future. While there are huge differences in philosophy, I think we're all on the same continent, at least.

How come people want a "penny for your thoughts", but you have to put in 2 cents? (I saw that somewhere recently. Apologies if I stole it from someone here!)

Spag
I agree.

The query was what "DIFF" is.

Further: Nordic skiers, Ski jumpers and Air-freestylists all learned to ski once.
That does not make their individual and unique pursuits any more alike.
This why I used the verb: "Diverge".
"Divergence" indicates one common starting point
followed more than one different endpoint.

Thank You
Hem
post #27 of 74
Hem. I'll take a turn at disagreement. Respectfully, of course.

What SKILLS are different? There are only a few things the body is capable of in terms of skills. You can tip the ski, turn the ski, flex/extend, rotate /bend parts of the body, and balance over the ski. That's pretty much it. We all do those things.

I think the differences lie in philosophy, desired outcome, and TACTIC.
post #28 of 74
Spag puts it quite well. In the Canadian system we have 5 fundamental skills - Stance & Balance, Pivoting, Edging, Pressure Control (essentially flexion/extension) and Timing & Co-ordination (which depending who you ask is less of a 'skill' and more of a way to link them all together.

If you look at any turn, you can see these elements present, they just vary in degrees.
post #29 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Hem. I'll take a turn at disagreement. Respectfully, of course.

What SKILLS are different? There are only a few things the body is capable of in terms of skills. You can tip the ski, turn the ski, flex/extend, rotate /bend parts of the body, and balance over the ski. That's pretty much it. We all do those things.

I think the differences lie in philosophy, desired outcome, and TACTIC.
...and skill
and application thereof.

A Thai Kickboxer and a Radio City Music Hall Rcokette both posses the skills of Supreme balance and high kicks.

Only one of those two groups has the ability to apply these skills lethally.

A ski racer must needs execute the skill of rut-running.
Rut-running summons into play a "third dimension" of ski consciousness, wherein the sidewalls are dictating the line.

A ski racer also must needs employ dynamic knee drive, which should never be confused with knee angulation or simple forward movement of the foot ouside the mass vector. Very few ski instructors have mastery of this technique. I know I don't.

Yet.

A ski racer must needs know when to simply ride the sidecut and when not to. The abilty to intuit when to change from one tack to the other is, in fact, a skill.

There are many others.

Take heart in the fact that we professional ski educators
posess the innate skills of communication and conveyance.
While a great ski racer might be so trained, a great ski instructor is born, as such.

This why our own PSIA was invoked of the USSA.

We should take collective pride in being a part of this breed.
Any instructor might be trained, over the course of many long years, the skills of racing.
The reverse can not be said of "any racer".

Thank You

Hem
post #30 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckInstructor View Post
Spag puts it quite well. In the Canadian system we have 5 fundamental skills - Stance & Balance, Pivoting, Edging, Pressure Control (essentially flexion/extension) and Timing & Co-ordination (which depending who you ask is less of a 'skill' and more of a way to link them all together.

If you look at any turn, you can see these elements present, they just vary in degrees.

There are more skills in skiing than those five.
"Stance" isn't a skill.

I am familiar with the Canadian System.

Like many older North American Professionals, I received my Canadian certification prior to the existence of the PSIA.

Hem
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